[RichC]

but in midget racing we have people like Steve Lewis who have bottomless pockets and can keep spending for an eternity without feeling the pinch. That's what most of you perceive at this time of what midget racing is about.

I never did. The thing that I bang my head against the wall on this is that no one (including you Mr Moore) ever seems to provide what they think is their definitive solution to the problem. Oh you hint about tires or bodywork or this and that but none of it really gets to the heart of the problem. The motor is the single biggest expense in the stupid things.

My solution? Only allow cheaper motors. The easiest way to put it would be that you have to be able to buy it over the counter at any new car dealer. Preferably the motor was actually used in a production car. Mr Lewis could still go buy his brand new over the counter but you should also be able to jerk a used one out of a Neon in the junkyard and have it be the same basic motor. The motor would need to be homologated by the sanctioning body and only motors that came in 1000?/10000?/???? production cars would be allowed. The car manufacturers would still have a vested interest in promoting the sport and perhaps have an interest in putting money in. It would still be a bear to police because people could still put unobtanium rods in the thing. My response to that would be to put in an effective claimer rule.

Yep, I can hear you howling. Yes, I just junked 5-6 figures worth of motors in your garage. Do I care? No. You know why? Because you too were part of the problem because you and the other midget owners have spent years chasing the Lewis' of the world like lemmings. You guys brought it on yourself so why should you be put in charge of fixing it? You honestly think you'll do a better job filling the hole back in than you did digging it?

As I've said all along, the only way to fix this is through a lot of car owner's pain and rev limiters, tires and bodywork changes aren't going to make this patient all better.

[DonMoore10]

First of all, please don't point fingers when you haven'y signed your name and told us what role you play in the midget community... fan or owner for example, thanks.

Secondly, maybe you've been hibernating in a cave somewhere, but anyone who has read this board consistently over the past many years and before that on another midget forum will tell you without a doubt that I have outlined sensible solutions to the problems of midget racing over and over and over and over and over again, thanks twice.

Thirdly, I am not a disciple of the Steve Lewis/NASCAR midget hauler/big buck teams and I don't follow the USAC trail, thanks three times again.

Your engine solution makes way too much sense for most of the people in the midget community to comprehend, thanks four times again! Most of them only want to hear about how much more they can out spend everybody else. Believe you me, if some rich owner, and that's about all we have left these days) thinks that dished hood is gonna get him to the front quicker, you'll see it at the next race, you can bet on it. That's the way the midget game is played today and that's why so many people have closed minds on here about how they percieve the sport. We will see where all of this is going in just a few short weeks!!!

[RichC]

First of all, please don't point fingers when you haven'y signed your name and told us what role you play in the midget community... fan or owner for example, thanks.

My mistake. Rich Chesavage. My role in the midget community? Almost zero. About the only time I touch the things is at the Chili Bowl which is more of a social event with noisy races in the background. I'm a sprint car guy. As a matter of fact, I can't stand to work on midgets. In a sprint car, it would be unusual to open the hood at the racetrack. In a midget, it's unusual to NOT open the hood at the racetrack. There's enought to do at the racetrack without having to screw around with the motor. You should try it sometime, you might find it refreshing. I have several British sports cars. Why several? Because you need several to have one running. I find the little brit cars to be more reliable than a midget.

Now that I've bagged on the things a bunch, I have to say that I love watching midget races. It seems like the only time I get to watch them is while waiting for the sprint car feature and you know what?, the midgets are often more entertaining that the sprints. Years ago when they were running the winter TV winged Slick 50 races at manzanita, they ran the midgets earlier in the day. I looked forward to traveling all across Robin Hood's Merry forest to watch the midgets run when I had nothing to do with them. If I'm spectating, give me midgets over sprints at Putnamville or the old Kokomo.

With that, it saddens me to watch these things die. It's also getting boring to listen to people ***** about problems without offering solutions. Yes, I've read the solutions offered and a lot of them either don't make sense or just pick at the problem. I'm not normally a throw back kind of guy but it seems like these cars need to go back to the stone age to be saved.

[LEADERS EDGE]

I believe the dish hoods were developed to help the wing guys keep the front of the car balanced as they slid the top wing back. The air mass under the wing is increased and there is less resistance. So the air flowing under the wing doesn't stack up and it flows more freely allowing more pressure on top of the wing.

They also found out(What Bob East found out years before) that the incresed air flowing above the nose also pulled air through the radiator opening faster keeping that air from stacking up. Bob's cars do that as well and they cool better than most of the one piece hoods. Spike has adopted a version of the design as well.

Personally, to me a dish without the front wing is just there for looks and cooling on a non wing car. The aero effect isn't that great, but the nose/hood combos with the sideboards closing off the downtubes.....that is a different story.

[Ovalmeister]

This may not be a very popular post but remember, it's just my humble opinion, so I'll say it anyway. I think the best thing that can happen to midget racing is to let it continue down the path it's on. Because if it does continue the way it is, midget racing will die. All the signs are there. Cancelling the (Terre Haute) Hut 100 due to low/no car count, relying on co-promotions to get a full field, dwindling car counts nationwide annually, etc...etc... You have to have your head buried pretty deep to deny it.

After midget racing dies and big money owners now have $60,000 boat anchors in their garages collecting dust, reinvent the sport. How do you reinvent the sport? By taking a few steps back, screwing your heads on straight, being realistic and aware of todays economic conditions/competiton for the entertainment dollar, and using a big dose of common sense.

I really believe the only way for midget racing to survive (and to actually THRIVE) is to provide promotors with a car count of 50+ cars consistently. 70+ at the major events such as the (Terre Haute) Hut 100. What promotor wouldn't jump at that? The back gate alone would be a substancial jump in revenue. So would the butts in the stands. Then maybe an organization would have a legitimate leg to stand on when discussing better purses. (and the promotor wouldn't have to book 5 divisions to break even).

So how could this be done? (OK, here comes the crazy talk).
Produce midgets that cost $20,000 RACE READY starting 2 years from now. That gives current owners time to use up their stuff without taking a huge blow. And their rolling chassis would still be very usable after that. The midget builders would probably make even more money just due to sheer volume of sales, rather than relying on a select few like they do now. As RichC said, make available affordable motors. Get back to what made midget racing great...grass roots racing. Make the tires slightly less wide and slightly less soft. Make them last more than a hot lap session.

YOU SHOULD NOT NEED AN INDY LIGHTS BUDGET TO WIN A MIDGET CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

If the cars cost $20,000 race ready, the current big money owners could field 4-5 cars each. Then maybe they could justify those NASCAR haulers they use! And they would still win. Look at the IRL. Spec cars, spec motors, cost cutting measures and who wins the races? The same guys that did before, Penske and Ganassi. The cream always rises, no matter the cost.

Go to www.minisprintracing.com and scroll down the left side of the page. You will see 41 (yes FORTY ONE) currently active mini sprint clubs. How many owners do you think that represents nationwide? Why do you think they are not midget owners? Mini sprints have boomed in the last 15 years or so. About the same timeframe midgets starting getting rediculously expensive. Coincidence?

One other idea that people kind of cringe at. Phase out the specialty chassis. If a guy could run a car on dirt and pavement, the car counts would skyrocket. Look at the photos below. That's Mel Kenyon running on dirt and pavement....with the SAME CAR. Well, that's just plain crazy talk! lol. Did the racing suck when Mel and everyone else did that? I....don't.....think.....so.

Now none of the ideas above are unique or earth altering, but the common sense may just be too much for some to handle. And please don't read into this as one of those "better back in the day" posts, because it isn't. It is a hard look at reality that really needs to happen if midgets are to survive. It would take guts and leadership and national cooperation to work. And therein lies the problem.
Again, just my humble opinion.

David.

[DonMoore10]

Yeah... Your post makes way too much common sense. Hardly anybody on earth will understand it and I'm being completely serious. For example, Just read through the posts on this thread and you'll understand why midget racing is in the state it is today. People cheering and craving for more expense. That's the mindset that is going down today. People have been programed that midget racing is the Steve Lewis/big buck way to do it. Just keep piling on the expenses. How many times have I been told on here that if I don't like the way things are being done, to sell and get out? Apparently a lot of owners are taking that advice. Have you checked the classifieds lately? In one area of the country, the midget owner population is being gutted big time right now. Yeah, today, guys, right before your very eyes. It was just two years ago that an offical from that region came on here and blasted me to the moon because I said it was about to happen.

Actually, Ovalmeister, what you are proposing could happen right now. There are engines and technology available that would fit in your niche you are proposing. Could it, would it happen? Have you ever seen Santa Claus in July? Well, it could if all the powers to be would put their allegiance to all the political big buck influences on the back burner and use some common sense.

Here is another thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to just junk all the high powered engines and replace them with an engine that is available new, right now, for around $10,000? I have a fresh engine sitting in my garage right now with a bill of sale for a rebuild at $7600. Yeah... $7600. Let's see. That's $1400 less than a new engine for around $10,000. Again, this makes way too much sense for most of the midget community to understand.

I know of one midget org in the U. S. that would rather be tortured 24/7 than make any changes to their rule book. I heard it first hand last week right from the source.

Like I said before on this thread, the day of judgement is coming at this critical time in midget racing history. We have the possible implosion of an historic region of midget racing, a new promoter in Indiana willing to bring a few fresh ideas to a midget series, another org implementing a rev limiter and weight rule supposedly by April 1, and some other groups that will be conducting business as usual. We will see!!

[LEADERS EDGE]

Why show photos from the 80's? Many teams ran combo cars until the Mid-90's.

In my experience with Mini-Sprint owners, I doubt many have a desire to own a midget. They may like the thought of it, but it is a different animal. Maybe I am wrong, but most run them because it is cost effective(Some of it), they can either run them close to home or they look somewhat like a sprintcar with the wings on. The cost is such that they can pick up used ones for a good price and they don't cost much to operate. Even if a midget was $20,000 turn key, I doubt many would jump. Besides, you can already pick up good quality used Midgets for under $20,000 and have many more spares than if you bought a new one. Many of those clubs probably have between 9-20 cars each. That is fine, but as it has been pointed out on here, few people want to pay to see less than 20 cars race.

The Hut 100 used to draw cars from all over the country when they got 70-100. Same with Turkey Night. They were landmark events that were held after the season had wound down.

Today with fuel costs, that is a hard sell and in many ways the Chili-Bowl has taken over as the destination event of the year.

People want to "save" Midget Racing, but in reality Sprint Cars are what have hurt the Midgets and that isn't going to change. People like to say the race sprint cars. No matter the style; it has a certain ring to it.

If people want Midget racing to thrive, maybe the better bet is to make it the unique sport it is. The fewer the races, the better the crowds if the level of competition is at a high level. If the sponsorship can be found to pay what it's worth then maybe the racers can be paid at a higher level.

Many people feel that each race should have 50 cars, but that isn't realistic.

[DonMoore10]

Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE Maybe I am wrong, but most run them (mini sprints) because it is cost effective(Some of it), they can either run them close to home or they look somewhat like a sprintcar with the wings on. The cost is such that they can pick up used ones for a good price and they don't cost much to operate.

If the midget community would ever really try to understand most of the above statement (minus the wing idea), we could move forward with midget racing. Until people get over the Steve Lewis/big buck stigma of midget racing , nothing is going to change.

The above statement by Scott Baue should be the basis for reinventing midget racing. Sorry that many of your can't understand that or won't understand it. Once we get beyond this mindset, we might be able to make some progress.

[sprinter25]

Originally Posted by DonMoore10 If the midget community would ever really try to understand most of the above statement (minus the wing idea), we could move forward with midget racing. Until people get over the Steve Lewis/big buck stigma of midget racing , nothing is going to change. The above statement by Scott Baue should be the basis for reinventing midget racing. Sorry that many of your can't understand that or won't understand it. Once we get beyond this mindset, we might be able to make some progress.

Sorry, Don, but that horse has been out of the barn for along time, whether it be winged sprint cars, non-winged sprint cars, or midgets.

There will always be someone willing to outspend you(not you personally, but the colloquial you) no matter what form of racing you elect to participate in. Be it tires, motors. or bodies, someone is spending the money.....

RC cars? Someone can buy a better, more expensive car......600's? again, someone can outspend you....It's been a fact of life for openwheel for a long time, and while some may not like it, it's not likely to change at this point.

You can always choose to step down to Kenyon midgets, or TQ's, but don't be disappointed when someone outspends you there to beat you...

If you want an inexpensive hobby, take up whittling...at least you can burn your mistakes for heat!

[Kirk Spridgeon]

I agree completely with the four guys who have posted before me. The post by Ovalmeister was especially interesting.

Here's the biggest hole I can blow in your proposal. Unfortunately, there are very few in racing today who are willing to be the losers. The mentality is not the same as it was at the times you're noting. I just read in here that Don Moore thinks it's just fine and dandy that another midget group is scheduling against the Hut Hundred (a major midget race you say should have 70+ cars), but that NEVER would have happened in this past life.

These racers have to come from somewhere. Whether you like them or not, you need younger drivers to make these fields of cars, but these are the same kids who ran a BUNCH of different types of cars, which were split into a BUNCH of different classes. Every one of them was a winner. I've been reading resumes for the last four years, and nobody out there is a loser. Everybody found a class, or a series, or a track that could make them a winner. They weren't willing to be anything less. But in order for things to be bright and sunny the way you want them, there would have to be people willing to scratch and claw just to be competitive with the elite racers.

I also think a hierarchy of midget organizations is important to the success of all of them. No one is willing to do that, though. POWRi & UMARA both call themselves "National" midget groups. All groups snipes each other for dates, and obviously not even the biggest races of the year (and one in dire need of a good field and a great event) are immune to be being scheduled against.

As a young person who spends a lot of time around race car drivers and would like to be a car owner one day, I can tell you that there are a lot of options of race cars to run these days. And even in each of those types of racing, there are plenty of options of races to run. Unfortunately, midgets are just not high on the list of cars that people want to drive, and cost is only one reason. No matter how many changes you make, midgets will never be the most popular of those options again, if you ask me...