There is an out of control satellite looking for a place to land.

[DW Blair]

Many great drivers don't even make the ballot. Western PA is a good example of this. In the 60s and 70s Western PA was as tough as anywhere in the country (although it sure isn't now). Many of the greats from there won and ran up front across the country. They have consistently nominated for the ballot, but never garner enough support to be put on the ballot for voting.
Lou Blaney - National Open win 1966, 4th Knoxville Nats 1974, over 600 wins (includes dirt modified)
Ralph Quarterson - First All Star champ 1970, top 10 Western World 1968
Buddy Cochran - Fast time Knoxville Nats 1973
Ted Wise - 3rd Knoxville Nats 1974
Gus Linder, Dick Bailey, Dick Linder and others.
They had many track championships and lots of wins at many tracks.

It's just a hard deal to get a lot of support for certain drivers (like Johnny A - he should be in). Unlike Dean, I see the bias (especially the older drivers) as being midwest bias. Seems like every Kansas City and Knoxville driver gets in.

There is no way to do this that doesn't involve opinion, whether old timer or younger generations. You just try to get as diverse of a voting panel as possible.

All,

I have resisted really getting into this debate for a range of reasons - but DW's point above is one of the key issues. I get annoyed at the logic that if person A does not get in, then the entire system is bogus. It would be very instructive for many to see the list of people who have been nominated, and even reached a final ballot, and who are yet to get in - it is staggering. Yes, there are a few where you say "there's no way" But in so many cases it is nearly numbing. "Realization" is not the issue - there are a whole lot of people that should be there but only a handful are selected each year. I am a voting member - I sent 11 names this year - 6 of those I chose made it, 5 did not - that's the way it goes - but I'm willing to defend my picks to anyone. I voted for a man in the historical category this year who spent the majority of his career in what may be deemed by some to be class B circuits. I doubt 1 in 10 people who get on this board have ever heard of him. Yet, in my opinion he was a towering figure in those circuits, drove a very famous car, and more than that, he was a leader among his peers. Not everyone got a shot at the big time, some had jobs that precluded it - or in my example above - there really weren't all that many great AAA seats to be had. Sometimes stats alone is not the issue. We inducted someone in the National Midget Hall of Fame this year - I thought it was a solid choice. Then, I heard from people who had raced with him and were fans in this area and era and all they could talk about was how great he was, how smooth etc. A friend of mine of was the the President of IMS and Daytona told me "if he would have come to Indy he could have been a real superstar - but he had a family, a good job ...." What I am saying is this went beyond mere stats. I have even nominated people - had them show up on the final balot and then NOT voted for them because in my estimation others deserved it more within the context. Do I always agree with selections - no -- but on the average when I walk through the hall of fame by far and away the vast majority have earned it. Rahter than denigrate the institution I'm happy that we have it.

[Mud Packer]

Originally Posted by psullivan All, I have resisted really getting into this debate for a range of reasons - but DW's point above is one of the key issues. I get annoyed at the logic that if person A does not get in, then the entire system is bogus. It would be very instructive for many to see the list of people who have been nominated, and even reached a final ballot, and who are yet to get in - it is staggering. Yes, there are a few where you say "there's no way" But in so many cases it is nearly numbing. "Realization" is not the issue - there are a whole lot of people that should be there but only a handful are selected each year. I am a voting member - I sent 11 names this year - 6 of those I chose made it, 5 did not - that's the way it goes - but I'm willing to defend my picks to anyone. I voted for a man in the historical category this year who spent the majority of his career in what may be deemed by some to be class B circuits. I doubt 1 in 10 people who get on this board have ever heard of him. Yet, in my opinion he was a towering figure in those circuits, drove a very famous car, and more than that, he was a leader among his peers. Not everyone got a shot at the big time, some had jobs that precluded it - or in my example above - there really weren't all that many great AAA seats to be had. Sometimes stats alone is not the issue. We inducted someone in the National Midget Hall of Fame this year - I thought it was a solid choice. Then, I heard from people who had raced with him and were fans in this area and era and all they could talk about was how great he was, how smooth etc. A friend of mine of was the the President of IMS and Daytona told me "if he would have come to Indy he could have been a real superstar - but he had a family, a good job ...." What I am saying is this went beyond mere stats. I have even nominated people - had them show up on the final balot and then NOT voted for them because in my estimation others deserved it more within the context. Do I always agree with selections - no -- but on the average when I walk through the hall of fame by far and away the vast majority have earned it. Rahter than denigrate the institution I'm happy that we have it.

Way too easy to run down selections rather than :applaud: the people for attaining the honor. Pat you said it perfectly. Not everyone will make it but we should be glad to have the avenue to honor some great drivers, car owners, officials, etc. Why does everything on here have to become an :angry-smiley-007:

[BrentTFunk]

I also agree with Dean on this ,no offense to anyone involved. I also feel like the non wing poll was a little off. Not at the top but scattered throughout. I talked to a person who votes yesterday and he and I both agree that some members watch things more closely, some just look at the end of the year point totals.

As for the idea of separating things into 360 or 410. I am glad I live where there is no difference, you either race a sprint car or you race a modified.

Originally Posted by psullivan All, I have resisted really getting into this debate for a range of reasons - but DW's point above is one of the key issues. I get annoyed at the logic that if person A does not get in, then the entire system is bogus. It would be very instructive for many to see the list of people who have been nominated, and even reached a final ballot, and who are yet to get in - it is staggering. Yes, there are a few where you say "there's no way" But in so many cases it is nearly numbing. "Realization" is not the issue - there are a whole lot of people that should be there but only a handful are selected each year. I am a voting member - I sent 11 names this year - 6 of those I chose made it, 5 did not - that's the way it goes - but I'm willing to defend my picks to anyone. I voted for a man in the historical category this year who spent the majority of his career in what may be deemed by some to be class B circuits. I doubt 1 in 10 people who get on this board have ever heard of him. Yet, in my opinion he was a towering figure in those circuits, drove a very famous car, and more than that, he was a leader among his peers. Not everyone got a shot at the big time, some had jobs that precluded it - or in my example above - there really weren't all that many great AAA seats to be had. Sometimes stats alone is not the issue. We inducted someone in the National Midget Hall of Fame this year - I thought it was a solid choice. Then, I heard from people who had raced with him and were fans in this area and era and all they could talk about was how great he was, how smooth etc. A friend of mine of was the the President of IMS and Daytona told me "if he would have come to Indy he could have been a real superstar - but he had a family, a good job ...." What I am saying is this went beyond mere stats. I have even nominated people - had them show up on the final balot and then NOT voted for them because in my estimation others deserved it more within the context. Do I always agree with selections - no -- but on the average when I walk through the hall of fame by far and away the vast majority have earned it. Rahter than denigrate the institution I'm happy that we have it.

Pat, you make an excellent point, as usual, and it has made an impression on me to the point that I realize I was a bit heavy handed in my initial post. Your response was precisely the sort that this board needs more of. One ripe with articulate, thought-provoking dialogue. That's what these message boards are for. The exchange of rational, intelligent discourse. I appreciate your retort, in that it made me understand a little more what goes on in the voting process.

However, the thing that concerns me most about the Hall of Fame voting procedure is this point, made by you:

<< I doubt 1 in 10 people who get on this board have ever heard of him. >>

You see, this is my issue. As you point out, a good number of voting members from the HOF selection committee are, shall we say, perpetually "unaware". They make their selections for the areas they know about, yet don't take the time to really arm themselves with the information necessary to make their picks accordingly. Voting for the Hall of Fame is an honor that should be taken very seriously. I contend that some people who vote quite simply do not care enough to even do their homework. Which makes me wonder why they even are in the position they are in.

It's maddening. Just my opinion...

DM

Dean,

Yes - that was one of the points I was trying to make - people have to take it seriously

Originally Posted by dirtywhiteboy Would it be fair to say that we should split the HOF into one for 410 and one for 360 drivers? Just because a guy is better in one form of racing doesn't me he is any less a driver in another form of racing. That is the way I am reading these replies. If I am wrong then I am wrong. After all it is called the National Sprintcar Hall of Fame and not the 410 Sprintcar Hall of Fame.

From Jim Morrison
Two things:
Voting on anything is subjective, someone's opinion based on the information base that they possess.

I know of Kramer Williamson, but have never seen him race. I've never seen many of the West Coast drivers run, except on rare occasions when they came to the Midwest. I know of Parnelli Jones but never seen him race. My opinion of them is based on what I have learned from others. I know just how good Tony Stewart, Pancho Carter and many others are because I have personally seen them.

I think everyone needs to lighten up a little. The Hall of Fame has only been inducting members for a few years. It has decades of drivers to catch up with, and only so many go in each year. Many drivers, and others, deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Their time will come. Personally, I was amazed that Pancho Carter was inducted before is own father, Duane, a Hall of Famer in his own right.

Now, the other point, I am thrilled that Dick Jordan has finally received his due with his selection. A lifelong racing fan, much of the efforts that Dick put in his 40 years with USAC have not been noticed because he works behind the scenes. He does much more than just file press releases but many people would never know the hours he puts in or the impact he has.

DJ, CONGRATULATIONS!!!

[sprntr]

This must give Arza Parsons Carter some kind of record.

Two ex-husbands & a son in the Hall!

Originally Posted by Dwight Clock Congrats to all the inductees. I am thrilled to see that Glenn Fitzcharles and Kramer Williamson are being inducted. I had the great pleasure of seeing and working with both of these great drivers during my time with URC. My plans for the week after the Indy 500 have now changed. I wouldn't miss their induction for anything. :applaud::thumb:

Dwight i guess Kramer will not make it to delmar that night. Congrats to both. Randy Smith