David, I think my wife even noticed that, how many sections they had covered, so to the casual observer, maybe they wouldn't notice, it just makes it more evident when they try to hide it, Bristol and Martinsville, and the first at Daytona are the only one's even close to a "large" crowed, I hate to see it doing this, because in my mind, the people even interested in racing anymore, are getting fewer and fewer, yes, we might have a lot of fans on this forum, but even it is getting drawn down, the one's that are here want more, but they aren't putting up the money to race, ticket sales won't buy squat, sponsors and enthusiasts who help out do! And, I don't blame Cousin Carl for stepping away, the ensuing rush to find something else may be overwhelming! Bob

Whereas I am not one for having a NASCAR thread on IOW.com, you make a really good point here, Nate. Thanks for taking this thread in that direction.

When open wheel racing had their split here in the States, back in the mid-90s, NASCAR took off. Whether it was Tony George making his moves, or the old CART management squandering all of the stored revenue they had, so many open wheel fans were alienated one way or another.

Now the shoe is possibly on the other foot. NASCAR is losing fans by the boat load. It is time for open wheel, both big pavement (F1, IndyCars) and short tracking (dirt sprints) to make THEIR move and pitch THEIR products to these disgruntled NASCAR fans.

Once again, point well made, Nate.

The problem Indy cars have is one cool track, race then the rest of the year is street-road races that know one watches. If you like it or not, you need to be thinking about nascar, They are the "leader" lol of racing. The times are changing. People stay at home and play online games, post on facebook, twitter and think the rest of the world is following their every move. Street rod, cars shows have the same problem. It looks like retirement bus unloaded a casino group by mistake, at most short tracks now of days.

I want to preface this post by saying our first love always was and always will be the wingless dirt open wheel cars.

However, there was a day when NASCAR occupied a very large part of our racing interest. From 1985 until around 2002 we never missed a February Speedweeks in Daytona Beach. Largely because my wife's immediate family lived close enough to DIS that on a clear quiet day we could hear the racecars.

We looked forward to Daytona like a child looks forward to Christmas. What happened? Us, like so many others were priced out of enjoying the events. First we eliminated the 500 and only went to the Thursday qualifiers and the Saturday 300 miler. But, at some point they bundled the tickets in such a way as to force us to buy tickets that we didn't want just to be able to get the tickets to the events that we wanted to attend. Local restaurants, bars and especially hotels went into gouge mode. The bottom line was that we, along with so many others, couldn't have hundreds of dollars worth of fun. Instead we'd take the money we previously spent on going to the 500 and go to the Keys for a few days and felt much better about the cost.

I DO NOT want NASCAR to die but I also understand why their crowds and TV viewership has diminished. They pretty much did it to themselves. They (NASCAR) catered to a demographic that had no intentions of staying with them long term. NASCAR capitulated to their every whim to the point that now, someone like myself, doesn't recognize the product and the fair weather fans are long gone and they ain't ever coming back! NASCAR looks to be left holding the bag. So, at Daytona they tear out the backstretch stands and build new ones in the tri-oval that effectively eliminate thousand of seats and the prices go even higher. Michigan has eliminated tens of thousands of seats and Bristol looks deserted when less than 10 years ago it was the toughest ticket in racing.

I disagree, the desperate attempts of NAPCAR to emulate, "Stick & Ball" sports by creating a pseudo, "Playoffs" only further demeaned their product. This is why with all their manipulations(ie, Lucky Dogs, Race to the Chase and countdown to checkers) to create drama have only caused viewership and track attendance to continue to decline. To me what went wrong was over media saturation, with 2 hour pre-race babblings, weekly "reality style" shows that go "way-way" behind the scenes with drivers, so that you know everything about them down to there toothpaste preferences and underwear style. A little mystery goes a long way(think lingerie) in providing interest, revealing everything, all the time, can get boring... What use to be a serious sport is now covered by an electronic ground hog and too often repeated tag lines, "Boogity, Boogity, Boogity" or "Let's pull those belts tight, ONE MORE TIME!" When I was coming up(70's & 80's) the racing had drama organically; tires blew, engines blew, people got mad and threw punches, cars spun out, and collected each other on a regular basis, survival was the first rule. Now the tires have inner liners so they can drive back to the pits. The engines are now so exotic and a millennia away from anything stock that they seldom expire. The downforce generated by the FDAU(Face Down A$$ Up) setups employed make the cars where any half wit "Spokes Model" can drive them at a fairly fast pace, so no need for actual driving talent. They have succeeded in sanitizing the sport to its lowest common denominator, dull. Its nothing but a moving reality show with what appears on occasion to have a scripted or at least upper level desired outcome. Boo! Hiss!

I remember when it was exciting just to catch a glimpse of an unlettered car in daytona for testing, in a magazine. NASCAR needs to get dressed, clean up and try and reclaim some dignity. Screw the drive for diversity BS, I want the 43(YES, 43) best most rugged, foul mouthed, cigarette smoking, tobacco chewing, hairy and hungover drivers you can assemble, not spokes models who get manicures and have teeth caps and handlers...
The fat lady isn't just warming up, she's nearly done with the final chorus.

I left Nascar and DLM to a certain degree recently, but INDY car racing is uninspiring to watch and to me has zero link to open wheel short track stuff. I have to admit when the IRL formed in the 90's and focused on ovals I thought that was a smart move and I actually watched some of it, but they got lost and ran off course. The problem is the cars I think, that and foreign drivers no one ever heard of "buying rides". I would rather see USAC put more emphasis on "Silver Crown" or that "Gold Crown" style cars that was put forth, but not a mid engine low buck F1 look-a-like car with funny looking rear wheel bumper pods. America is oval track racing and V8's, Indy is an oval, we like these things, so let's do it our way and not be ashamed of being, AMERICAN.

Your assessment is spot on. I would also add that while the prices were going thru the roof, the relative quality of the product was going down. What happens if your favorite steakhouse keeps charging more as the quality of meat goes down. You find somewhere else to eat.

Sounds like a gimmick, desperation move to me.
NASCAR started to lose it when they stopped racing actual production cars that fans could identify with. But Detroit doesn't make them any more. Who wants to watch a bunch of front wheel drive Toyotas & Hondas racing?
Indy cars are boring to me also. Europeans driving hi-tech space ships
I'll stick to dirt.....

You all have some great observations of NASCAR, and its problems. I live in the Daytona area and witnessed the rebuild of the Speedway from a race track to a "stadium". And I have toured that stadium. It is a first class, high end, beautiful facility, but I don't believe that was all done for the race fan. NASCAR too, sees the writing on the wall. They have already hosted a large country music show at the "Stadium", and am sure there will many more non racing events held at the "stadium". And FYI, on the property across from the stadium, the Frances have partnered with developers, banks, etc. to build One Daytona, a mega complex of condos, hotels, shops, 14 screen cinema , Outdoor World, etc. And they have a casino on the Kansas property. They too see the future - and it doesn't look like racing is it, at least long term.