midget engines?

2/11/08, 11:54 AM

wow lots of info

kstudley57 · 2/11/08, 2:24 PM

The race at anderson is 400 laps and will be VERY tough on the engine. I think the biggest factor isn't getting it to live, it will be keeping it cool. I really don't think starting that race with a motor that has 5 or more races on the valve train would be smart but some guys will do it and won't end up having a problem at all. My take will probably be to have a new set of valve springs installed and double check things like the fuel pump pressure and pill settings. Ask the guys that run the little 500 and most all can tell you a story about a fuel pump going south half way through and blowing up an engine by leaning it down so it pays to check it before hand. It all boils down to risk, some take chances and others don't.
To come back to what you said about your motor and how hard you turn it vs. horsepower. We turn our ford midget engines almost 9000 rpm on short tracks and 8500 rpm on bigger tracks. WHen you don't have an esslinger it really helps to turn the motor harder because it lets it come off the corner better to keep up with the esslingers. The rpm range you run a midget engine at is one of if not THE determing factor to how long it will live. I'm by no means an expert at all this but we have had many motors and worked with guys like edpink, gaerte, Dave kahn and others so i'm just passing on the information they have given to us.

badgerfan · 2/11/08, 8:22 PM

Kevin, probably a stupid question but what goes into the rpm's an engine makes? I assume its much more than just gearing and that things like tire size, tire compound, track condition, track position (high vs low line) and more go into that.

Redbone · 2/11/08, 10:08 PM

Just another $.02, for what it's worth. I think some of the numbers traditionally thrown around regarding midget engines are a bit, let's say.....inflated:wink. Engine builders are notorious for tweaking the "correction factor" dial on the dyno console to sell engines. I think more realistic numbers probably lie around 360 HP + or - for the front running engines today. This is assuming a vintage 12B or 18 degree Gaerte would pull 320-330 on the same dyno. I honestly believe that there is not much more than a 30 HP or so difference in most USAC starting fields today.

Back to fasttoms question about the V8

Gasman fan 50 · 2/12/08, 1:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasttom

why the vw?? how about the v8?

Well, you said old engine! There's no old V8s unless it is the flat head ford v60. I think they only had a four or three main bearing caps. Those caps keep the crank shaft from walking and snap! broken crank!:headbang

Wonder about the Water Boxer van VW engine? 1982 to 1990?

Rules, cubic inch is about 140 to 160 I don't know what it is. I'm only a fan! Higher the RPM more valve problems. The steel of today is awful! I do have a photo of a duel over head cams Ford Champ Car engine or did have I deleted it. I wonder if AJ Foyt had something to do with it. No cage Champ car.
Then a Chevy V8 that turned 12,000 RPM's about 1965? Duel overhead cam! Those an't midget engines! The engines of yesterday 32 valve V8 engine in your car today! duel over head cams engines.

No V8 engines! 4 cycliders about 174 cid, or 2852 cc with push rods. In the rule book. Duel over head cam engine 16 valves 4 cyclinder 120 cid or 2000cc. LOOKS LIKE IT KILLS YOUR IDEA OF A V8!
6 inline 146 cid or 2393 cc no duel cams
V6 2852 or 174 cid no duel cams!

So, why did they let in the Ford V60?

2/12/08, 1:13 PM

redbone is right the suzuki v8 and 12,000 is not really that much for a bike styal motor there are a lot of them that run 16,000+ rpm i just think it would be cool dont know if any one would run it?

2/12/08, 1:57 PM

pgray - I am sure the info you can give is probably limited at this point - but that Honda engine you mentioned - will it be open to most midget series? I may be wrong - but I thought that was a 4 valve design? I am sure Honda could make a mean midget motor.....

pgray · 2/12/08, 3:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rt9906

1...pgray - I am sure the info you can give is probably limited at this point -

2...but that Honda engine you mentioned - will it be open to most midget series?

3...I may be wrong - but I thought that was a 4 valve design?

4...I am sure Honda could make a mean midget motor.....

Thanks RT9906 for your interest in the Bushor / Honda Midget Engine Development Program ! (... or , BHMEDP ).

As noted above in quote, I have separated your question to four parts to prepare a proper and accurate response.

1- The info available to date could be best described as "limited" as much "bench R&D" remains with on-track testing to follow prior to any actual production.

2- The engine will be further developed in accordance with the 2008 USAC rule book and upon completion will be presented to USAC for certification. USAC inspected and preliminarily approved the first prototype engine for testing in 2006. The results of that test were highly encouraging ! This engine would be compliant to any and all midget groups that utilize the USAC engine specifications as most do.

3- Yes, the production based Honda S2000 is a 4-valve design.
Specifically, the engine is aluminum-alloy, both block and cylinder head ; is 16 valve -DOHC.

4- The Honda should be very competitive with everything else currently in use, in addition to a cost advantage in both ownership and long-term operation.

The production engine has a displacement of 2157 cc. Because of the 4 valve per cylinder configuration, USAC rules will limit this engine to 2000cc or 122.0 cubic inches. Therefore, the race version will be 9.577 cu.in. smaller but with a significant gain in both horsepower and torque.

Look for on-track testing this summer ! Thanks again ,

Paul Gray - Driver , Midgets # 16 , 16B AND 28.

Please Visit - :greenflag: www.paulgray28.com

Also see the Paul Gray Interview at - :checkered: www.talk2drivers.com

Gasman fan 50 · 2/12/08, 4:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasttom

hey i am new here just wanted to see what every one runs? how often do you all rebuild your engines? do you have more then one engine? is there any engine from the past that you would like to see updated and come back to midget racing?

I guess I read this wrong. Engine from the past! Enough wasted time!
Does your V8 meet the CC?:idea: NO V8 engines aloud. I could not find anything about the ford flat head v60. It is a single cam v8 no push rod engine.

pgray · 2/12/08, 4:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasman fan 50

I guess I read this wrong. Engine from the past!

Does anyone remember the Cosworth-Vega Midget ?

2/11/08, 11:54 AM	#11 Re: midget engines?
fasttom Posts: n/a	wow lots of info

2/11/08, 2:24 PM	#12 Re: midget engines?
kstudley57 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 299	The race at anderson is 400 laps and will be VERY tough on the engine. I think the biggest factor isn't getting it to live, it will be keeping it cool. I really don't think starting that race with a motor that has 5 or more races on the valve train would be smart but some guys will do it and won't end up having a problem at all. My take will probably be to have a new set of valve springs installed and double check things like the fuel pump pressure and pill settings. Ask the guys that run the little 500 and most all can tell you a story about a fuel pump going south half way through and blowing up an engine by leaning it down so it pays to check it before hand. It all boils down to risk, some take chances and others don't. To come back to what you said about your motor and how hard you turn it vs. horsepower. We turn our ford midget engines almost 9000 rpm on short tracks and 8500 rpm on bigger tracks. WHen you don't have an esslinger it really helps to turn the motor harder because it lets it come off the corner better to keep up with the esslingers. The rpm range you run a midget engine at is one of if not THE determing factor to how long it will live. I'm by no means an expert at all this but we have had many motors and worked with guys like edpink, gaerte, Dave kahn and others so i'm just passing on the information they have given to us.

2/11/08, 8:22 PM	#13 Re: midget engines?
badgerfan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 335	Kevin, probably a stupid question but what goes into the rpm's an engine makes? I assume its much more than just gearing and that things like tire size, tire compound, track condition, track position (high vs low line) and more go into that.

2/11/08, 10:08 PM	#14 Re: midget engines?
Redbone Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 30	Just another $.02, for what it's worth. I think some of the numbers traditionally thrown around regarding midget engines are a bit, let's say.....inflated:wink. Engine builders are notorious for tweaking the "correction factor" dial on the dyno console to sell engines. I think more realistic numbers probably lie around 360 HP + or - for the front running engines today. This is assuming a vintage 12B or 18 degree Gaerte would pull 320-330 on the same dyno. I honestly believe that there is not much more than a 30 HP or so difference in most USAC starting fields today. Back to fasttoms question about the V8

2/12/08, 1:13 PM	#16 Re: midget engines?
fasttom Posts: n/a	redbone is right the suzuki v8 and 12,000 is not really that much for a bike styal motor there are a lot of them that run 16,000+ rpm i just think it would be cool dont know if any one would run it?

2/12/08, 1:57 PM	#17 Re: midget engines?(Pgray)
rt9906 Posts: n/a	pgray - I am sure the info you can give is probably limited at this point - but that Honda engine you mentioned - will it be open to most midget series? I may be wrong - but I thought that was a 4 valve design? I am sure Honda could make a mean midget motor.....