[PatrickMead#13]

Preseason checks and sealing. If seals are broke, must re check. Just a thought

[DAD]

Pat

MMSA did that for a couple of years back but got away from it, Still kinda of a hassle.

Somebody went so far as to make shear off head bolts where the hex part of the bolt would shear when torqued and another guy started making pirate knock off bolts that looked like the original legal bolts and got rich.

Honest Dad himself

[PatrickMead#13]

Eh... So much for that...... Lol

[DAD]

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13 Eh... So much for that...... Lol

Pat

The problem with any rule that sets specifications for the engine usually generates the same response "SO much for that idea". There is always someone that will go that extra mile to circumvent any rule, sometime they do it just because the rule is there. One of my favorite quotes comes from old Smokey Yunick, he said "Well you didn't say I couldn't".

If the world was a perfect place stock internals would be great, however this sure is not a perfect world. As things exist today to check for stock component it would require at least the removal of the oil pan, the valve cover, side covers, and the throttle bodies. That ain't no 15 minute tec. If you are not prepared to do the above stock internals will not work.

I am working on a deal right now where we could use a few well placed plugs and check all the parts above by just removing a side cover or even better a timing access plug. I think it would be possible to check for stock rods and pistons, stock valves, stock transmission gears and even valve lift and valve spring pressure if we wished.

It would require the installation of several plugs for access. These could be installed without even tearing the engine down. Then a racer could be given the option of an engine tear down and or having inspection plugs installed in his engine allowing for much faster tecs.

I would consider either method above a tad anal but other racers would not feel the same way.

I am the type of person that would want to take the advantage away from people with hot rod motors. The simple rule of just adding extra weight for the old boat anchor zx12 motors made them obsolete, as if they needed help. The methanol weight did not do much to affect racer choice because most cars where already close to that weight anyhow. I would like to see this rule reversed and make the gasoline cars carry an extra 50 pounds. For one thing it is easier to cheat with gasoline, for the other thing methanol is a much safer fuel in case of a wreck and fire. It would be prudent to persuade the racers over to methanol as the fuel of choice. If for no other reason than "SAFETY". With our 60 psi flame throwers, gasoline could be a real problem in a wreck when the fuel line is knocked loose and the fuel pump does not shut off automatically.

The secret is finally, out it does not take a ton of money to convert one of these things over to methanol, there are already economy conversions on the market and DIY people can do it even cheaper. There are even automatic fuel pump cut off devices out there.

If a driver is too good for the competition make them carry extra weight. If built motors are too fast on larger tracks go for a smaller right rear tire.

Work on making the cars competitive don't worry weather or not the little 600cc cars are faster than us. If you let one of them 600cc guys drive an upright 1000 cc car they will be hooked and probably be looking for a car.

If I was just starting out I would want to feel the class I was considering was competitive and that anyone including myself would have the chance to run up front, whether they own a $4500.00 starter car or a $20,000 super duper pooper scooper all out brand new race car. We just can't outlaw money.

Honest Dad himself

[DAD]

Open letter or Thinking Out Loud

As the casual reader might summize I do have a hang up on Mini Sprint racing and car and driver weight. The reason is I have seen a cause and affect one has on the other. I have in the past only talked about the need to raise the weight slightly to accommodate the big old boy racer. Some groups take this another step and make rules to accommodate big old motored race cars.

Many times rules are made to in encourage a certain response from the people affected by them and to discourage responses made by other people acting outside the norm. All the time allowing for these peoples actions to continue until those affected people who are acting out side the norm see the disadvantage they are placing themselves into by following ideas outside the main stream and make a change to a more positive action and to a mainstream approach. (take a cleansing breath!)

What 99% of us want is a stock 1000cc motorcycle motor with basic stock internal parts weighing around 950 Pounds for car and driver.

Why don't we make a motor rule that goes something like this.

I will call it my Honest Dad's all inclusive "KUMBAYA" motor rule.

Rules assume 13" wheel midget chassis based motorcycle or small 4 cylinder auto engine powered race car. Drive train optional. Weight may be changed up or down with a 2 weeks notice to the racers. Name of class to be determined at later date.

#1 600cc powered car running on methanol******725 pounds Lets 75 pound kids start out racing

#2 600cc powered car running gasoline *********775 pounds (don't encourage gasoline)

#3 1000cc stock internals powered car running methanol********950 pounds

#4 1000cc stock internals car running gasoline*********1000 pounds (BAN GASOLINE)

#5 1000 cc modified internals running on methanol *****1100 pounds (knock your self out if you want a 3mm bore and 4 mm stroke do it) just stay under 1200cc's I would also advise applying for a new credit card.

#6 1000cc modified internals running on gasoline********1150 pounds

#7 1200cc stock internals running on methanol**********975 pounds

#8 1200cc stock running on gasoline*******************1025 pounds

#9 1200cc modified running on methanol***************1100 pounds

#10 1200cc modified running on gasoline***************1150 pounds

#11 Eco tec (2400cc ?)running on methanol and self starting. (no gasoline allowed)***1150 pounds

When the car and driver signs in the driver will designate the motor size, whether or not it is stock or modified, and what type of fuel they are running.

Modified cars will be checked for weight, displacement or maximum cc displacement, and fuel content. They would be called OUTLAW MOTORS

Stock engine cars would have to under go a more rigid inspection and if caught out of specs they would lose all points and money for that race and be relegated to running by the modified rules for the rest of the season. (A racer could just declare themselves OUTLAW's and breez right through tec)

Nothing could be more fair than that.

Honest Dad himself

[DAD]

Bear

This was the post you were probably thinking about. It started out talking about the meeting of concerned racers intent on making a better rule package for mini-sprints. It got pretty involved.

Thinking about it a little more brings up memories of when we first got into racing 600cc uprights back in the late 80's. The only track we raced at was "Thunder Valley" at little Salem. I went to one of my first smoke filled room high anxiety and even higher temper rules meetings. The main concern at the time was them new sidewinder cars. We perceived them lighter and therefore faster than the upright cars and a threat to our little corner of the world.

We wanted to exclude them from competing with us. So what we did was measure the front axle to drive sprocket distance. We determined that they were in fact several inches longer than we were because of the placement of the engine. So we make a rule for minimum axle to sprocket distance. Problem solved, sidewinders outlawed, we don't have to worry about them any more.
We had indeed Drafted a rule of exclusion to prevent sidewinders from infiltrating our ranks.

Well the next year I managed to get John Godfrey to build us a Stealth Mini sprint. We got it home started putting it together and low and behold since it was a longer wheelbase than most mini sprints at the time we did not meet our rules any more for front axle placement. We had to go back to John and get him to build us another front axle with another axle reinforcement welded to the back of the original axle to make the axle measure 4" longer and make us legal for our own class.

Had we written a rule of inclusion I would not have had to had that silly axle built. One interesting bit we still have that axle, you just couldn't tear the darned thing up.

Had we written a simple less specific rule of inclusion such as.
Min weight
Min wheel size
Motor to be in front of driver's feet
We would not have had all that problem with the placement of our front axle.

Honest Dad himself

[DAD]

Phil

So we would outlaw a motor because of what we read in a magazine? Tulsa allows these motors and the dry sumps to allow them to work outside of a motorcycle.

This is the post that refers to the rules meeting that you hosted. There is another post up about the rules for the Tulsa Shootout and what you thought about "their rules".

You take my comments and the comments of others much too personal. If you can come up with a set of rules that works that would be great. If you can come up with a race that pays enough to warrant travel out to Kansas I am sure Many people will change their set up if need be to go out and race with you.

I think that other racers need to know what is out there in the bushes that might crop up in the future. I think it might be a little egotistical of you to think that you can make up a set of rules and that everyone will follow suite. In any decision making process education is key to making a good decision. Just perhaps I or someone else might bring something to your attention that you did not know or was not informed about. To shut out the rest of what knowledge is out there and forge ahead with ideas that have become intrenched in ones mind may not bring about the best results.

Hey.>>If you don't like talking to the rest of us about rules and the outcome of rules, there is a neat little board out in Kansas that I am sure you would enjoy bringing your knowledge to. Most of the racers that read this board live in Indiana or Ohio. A long way from Kansas "Dorthy".

Honest Dad himself

[openwheel44]

Dad........all of our information and rough draft of rules are being conveyed to each applicable group for their input, suggested adjustments and hopefully approval at some point. But majority will rule. No one is dictating anything. Must I say it again.......

These were all decided by those at the meeting without anyone having an agenda. They were "group" decisions and ideas. We all realize things might need to be adjusted. Hence......the FIRST rough draft. My main point....no one is shutting anyone out. Seems every Midwestern group was informed of this meeting because they all had at least one representative there in person or by teleconference. Hell.....even the California group for invited to the teleconference part. This was a majority formulated FIRST rough draft. Please read that as many times as you need to let it soak in.

Personally, I could give a rat's a$$ what is done in Tulsa. I am more concerned about what is happening in the rest of the Midwest during our normal racing season. So were all the other at that meeting. My sun doesn't rise and set on Tulsa. One race does not make a season. One thing you need to keep in mind......

Mini sprints basically started in Tulsa in the early 80's. They tried to kill it with out of control motor costs. Luckily it spread quick enough to other parts of the Midwest that utilized more sane motor ethics to ride the storm out. Now.....ask yourself how many Lightning/Mini sprints are there actually in Tulsa today? How many tracks other than the Shootout run them in the Tulsa area? Or even Oklahoma?

Answer those questions and you'll understand why I don't care what Tulsa does. I care what MMSA, ILSS, MLS, WIMS, RMLSA and MALS does and wants. I respect what they all decide as a group. This is not about me or my opinion alone. This has been a group effort and still is. BTW......I am not taking anything personal. I will admit these continued conversations are getting rather stale though.

About forgot...........in case you missed in the post on the other thread.........No one is banking on what the magazines are saying about any motor. It could all be hype to sell motorcycles.....just like the new ZX-10. The BMW issue is about cost and availability.

[DAD]

Phil

Quick check on EBAY asking prices for motors as of 3 Dec 2013:

2011-2013 zx10r>>>>>>>>>$3000.00-$3500.00

2011-2013 BMW 1000rr>>>>>$2000.00-$3800.00

2011-2012 GSXR 1000>>>>>>$3000.00-$5000.00

2010-2013 R1>>>>>>>>>>>$2500.00-$4000.00

They call it inflation. I like to think of it as freedom of choice and the pocket book rules.
Kind of flies in the face of some of those motors are just too expensive for the average racer this is for your own good rule. I for one can't afford a GSXR 1000. If I was left to my own devices and were not too incumbered with rules I would probably choose to run a BMW with a late model zx10r Kawasaki Ecm and wiring harness. That is what racers do. Less I forget that some racers only buy off of the rack.


Honest Dad himself

[openwheel44]

Ya think those BMW's might be a little cheaper due to the fact no one is buying them because no one will let them run? Not just our class using these type motors outlawing them from what I have been told. People start buying them, demand go up.........so will the price.

Looking at those numbers, maybe all motors above 2010 should be banned!!! LOL