just as long as i can still see the greatest racing in the world done on the dirt of the Indy,Springfield and Duquoin miles, as well as Terre Haute, Eldora, hell any track that will have them.... My love for the Silver Crown cars will never cease....

[QUOTE=dirtywhiteboy;146705] That's MISTER OLD GUY to you, ya whipper-snapper! :2:

Sir yes Sir

you got that right!

So let me get this right....This Gold Crown car is supposed to be a "step up" from Silver Crown, when in fact it is a new version of the failed next-gen Silver Crown car, which is supposed to be a "step down" from the Gold Crown. So following that logic, wouldn't the Gold Crown actually be a step down from the Silver Crown, or would it really be a step to the side? Or maybe a step back?

Don't get me wrong, the car looks better this time around, but a turd is still a turd, no matter how much it's polished and no matter who polishes it.

Just my opinion, sorry if anyone is offended.

Gerry Keysor

I posted this last night, but it doesn't seem to have taken.

I listened to the show and enjoyed the format. I'll be listening in the future. I appreciate you using my questions even though you didn't have time to get to all of them or any of the others.

I wasn't encouraged by the answers though. In Mr. Ashmore's defense, he is a promoter and he just can't say the same things I can say. And I'll give him props for coming clean on racing in 2010.

But from his answers, here is what I came away with. There are JUST 23 cars. Not 23 + 12. In fact it's actually 21 + 2. I used 12 because I didn't remember for sure how many of the original GC cars actually made it to the track. So it's the 21 originals and two more since he took over the project. Not good.

One of the biggest problems with the original car was that it was too expensive. That hasn't changed. It's still $85K for the car w/o engine. And the original cars now need a $10K body. And while I am sure that it is different than the original body, it still looks the same to me. If I had the money and I don't, I would not buy one of those cars at that price. It's basically a sprint car. And a brand new sprint car w/o engine is about $25K.

They are available from 4 companies, 3 of which are road racing companies. The one that isn't a road racing company is the former Stealth company with a new owner. I've not heard of him. All traditional oval track builders were shut out of the process originally and it appears that they are still not involved. He mentioned that he was getting advice from Penske. I don't remember his exact wording, but indicated that Penske was very involved. Involved so much that he hasn't purchased a car and has no plans to do so. Does anyone believe that Roger Penske doesn't buy what he wants? With all the problems ALMS has he fielded a two car team in that series.

Engines. They talk about getting engines from nascar engine builders and emphasis that previous generation engines are available at fire sale prices due to updates on Cup engines. That train left the station a couple of years ago. Those engines are gone. And now they have 4 car brands just like Cup. Unless those 4 companies are giving away engines, they need to be kept away from this series, at least until it's up and running.

To much emphasis on road racing. Yes, lack of road racing experience is one EXCUSE that IRL owners use to shut out short trackers from rides in Indycars. But it's only an excuse. The real reason that IRL owners don't hire short trackers is that the short trackers don't have financial backing and expect to get paid for driving. This series will not change that. That was what the Indy Lights series was supposed to do too. How's that been working out for them so far?

To those that don't want to see any negativity posted, I understand your position. I've seen it for over a decade at other boards. Not pointing out problems with this series, the IRL or any other series does not make those problems go away. What makes them go away is identifying the problems and then fixing them. You want this series to be successful? I do to. But as it's been pointed out, I don't have a dime invested. But for me to invest a dime, you'll have to figure out a way to get a lot more cars on the track. Can it be done without people like me supporting it? I think it could be, but I haven't seen it done successfully yet.

Lucky 161, my concern for safety is just that when you see these cars with the skin off, it doesn't look that substantial. I'm not an engineer, so I guess I will have to trust their numbers. As far as the drivers go, I know that this is not affiliated with USAC. If a driver commits to running an entire schedule, I'm assuming they will have a fair amount of races, conflicts and logistic problems will be inevitable. It might only take away a couple of drivers from SC, but right now the SC can't afford to lose anymore, pavement or dirt. It is hard not to sound negative on this board, it is not my intention. Having said all that, I would love to go see a track full of these cars at Gateway.

I'm not an engineer either, but I do know that engineers have formulas that they use when designing things like this. The materials have known strengths. That said, no racing is completely safe. Concerning conflicts Ashmore said last night that he is waiting for USAC to announce their schedule so he can avoid conflicts with them. But racing schedules are full of conflicts of one type or another. I agree that losing competitors would not be a good thing for either type of racing, but I strongly believe there are always going to be more qualified drivers than there are available rides. If you read my last post, then you'll understand that I know it's hard to not sound negative. I won't likely be going to Gateway, but I'd love to see them at TMS. Unfortunately I think it's going to take a large injection of money for this series to be a success.

Bruce said he would not schedule against Silver Crown.
Car Builders DRC and Ex Stealth now Rock are oval trackers.
C&R which Bruce bought out is oval guys that make their living selling parts[radiators & more] to all types of racers.
The 4th builder was paid to build and test moved to N.C and probally won't build any more of these for a while.
Bruce said last night that Carl Edwards group already has bodys and will run Yates Fords.
Another team in Indy will also have a car on display at the Indy show as well.
The teams are behind the idea and in time all the cars will be changed over.
The engine deal isn't a fire sale, the NASCAR builder have engines and parts to service this or any other series that runs a 350steel block. They are looking for places to keep the old design nascar engines running.

It looks like I confused the current Devin Race Cars with the old (1950-60s) sports car builder. C&R's website has a list of customers that mentions nascar, IRL, ALMS, Indy Pro Series, NHRA, WoO, Silver Crown and USAC sprints. No mention of GC.

So that takes me to another question. Given that some of these builders are experienced oval car builders, what is it about these cars that make them cost 3 times as much as other oval track cars?

The implication from this quote at the GC website "The Silver Crown engine rules have been updated to allow the newer cylinder heads and engine blocks from CHEVROLET, FORD, and MOPAR, making the lower cost pre-owned components from the 2007 NASCAR Sprint Cup engines useable for these cars. For this to work, the rules must remain at a minimum one-year behind the current rules being utilized in NASCAR to provide a used distribution network for the current NASCAR teams. As it is anticipated that NASCAR will freeze their rules for at least the next five years this also provides great stability for Gold Crown" is that these engines will be less costly than current Cup engines. OK, so what? Lots of engines are available that would be less costly, many MUCH less costly than current Cup engines. This tie in to Cup and to the factories COULD be a good thing. It COULD indicate a professionalism for the series that could not be reached easily otherwise. However, for that tie in to work, then there would need to be some serious money involved. Enough to have purses at a minimum of what the Truck series purses run AND sponsorship levels to match. They don't seem to be claiming that. Now there is a school of thought that says if it's not expensive, it can't be good. An example of the difference in racing would be the ALMS series vs. the DP series. The ALMS series being far more expensive and to some people far better than the DP series. However, ALMS is struggling badly and the DP series seems to be doing much better.

Of course the teams are behind this. They have $85K invested in cars w/o engines and no place to run them unless this series gets off the ground. 23 X $85K is nearly $2 million. For that same $2 million they could have 50 cars if they were at a more reasonable, but still pricey $40K each.

I just don't understand why this series seems intent on shooting itself in the foot repeatedly when reasonable alternatives are available.

---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------

This should go without saying, but I'll make it plain.

If I am wrong, feel free to educate me. I'll admit to being a little hard headed, but I can be convinced if the evidence is there. And in this particular case, I would love to be wrong.

And I realize some of you have serious investments in this and it's hard to not be emotional when you do, but please let's discuss not argue.