[SprintRacer4]

ShaneMugavin57...I think you took my words right out of my mouth! I couldn't have said it better. A win is a win, Loyet crossed the line first. In my mind he is the winner. If I was in Kuhn's shoes would I be happy? Probably not. This happens at Chili Bowl all the time & not a whole lot ever gets said because that's how you have to race there sometimes. It can be a part of racing, you race guys how you want to be raced. You throw a bad slider at somebody, expect it back someday. I don't think any sort of "judgement" call should have been made, but apparently it is in the PowrI rules.

[Tim Clauson]

The purpose of this thread isn't so much targeted at the incident this past weekend but more about the trend of, and I like this term "legislating" races. It seems like it is becoming more prevalent in our sport. From NASCAR to USAC to PowrI to the local Saturday night races and in of all the "calls" I have seen made at least half in my mind could of gone either way. And in one case they penalized a car that wasn't even involved in the altercation (although it was the same color as the one that was).

I guess in a nut shell here is in my opinion what is wrong with "Judgement calls" in short track racing:

Taken straight from the PowrI Rulebook:

H. Slide Jobs:
Must clear the driver you are attempting to pass!

A. Retaliation:
During a yellow or after the event, you will be disqualified, receive no points and no pay – No Second Chance.

If in the "Judges Opinion" What Loyette did was a slider that wasn't cleared which I guess by the letter of the law it was, How was what Kuhn did after the race not considered Retaliation ?

[ShaneMugavin57]

Tim you make great points the only thing I can think of is Loyet had been guilty of the bad sliders in the past and was warned where the retaliation was a first time occurrence.

As far as the fighting all I know is when I was a kid and you had a fight at the track the stands were twice as full the next week even though anything rarely happened the next week .

[DonMoore10]

Originally Posted by Tim Clauson If in the "Judges Opinion" What Loyette did was a slider that wasn't cleared which I guess by the letter of the law it was, How was what Kuhn did after the race not considered Retaliation ?

The DuQuoin race ended when the two cars crossed the finish line, so the retaliation factor does not apply to the "during the race" rules.. The "meeting" that took place in the first turn was an "after the race" event and should be addressed as follows according to the POWRi rules on the web site.

"No participant shall strike or cause bodily harm to any person at the track. Anyone found guilty will be fined $200 and suspended for 2 events."

I wasn't there. Was there contact and if so, who initiated it?

Off topic question, but rules are rules: Did the POWRi check the top finishing engines to see if they were legal according to their rule book?

[Tim]

The best quote from a driver I've heard concerning this topic came from, I believe, Fred Rahmer. If I remember correctly he stated that when he felt he was "done wrong" by another driver, he wouldn't say anything. But he didn't expect the other driver to say anything to him, either, when he returned the favor at a future opportunity.

Until it gets out of hand I believe the drivers should be left to disciplining each other. Officials step in when it gets out of hand, but consequences should be swift and severe, including suspension. Probation works as well if a driver will heed the warnings.

Just my thoughts.

Tim Simmons

[riskybrisky5]

I am going to share a story with you from a time early in my career. It was at Tris State Speedway where we all know slidejobs are the norm. I had already won a few races there and pulled alot of clean slide jobs off. This particular night Gary Hayhurst Jr. and I were racing very hard for the win. I totally miss judged a slidejob at got into Gary pretty good. I went on to win the race but I knew in my heart I did not win it the right way. But here is the point of my story. My father knew that I had pulled a bone head move. So while I was in victory lane he new the Hayhurst's were very mad. So he told Gary Sr. that they could go and scream at me do what ever they want to me but do not hit him. He knew that I needed to learn my lesson. Instead of standing up for me and saying that is just racing we were going for the win and you would have did the same thing. I remember pulling into the pits and the whole Hayhurst crew surrounding me. They beat on the wing yelled at me in the cockpit and a few more things but never touched me. I felt absolutely terrible for what I had done to him. When they were done I apologized and said I was sorry and it would not happen again. We were friends before and we were friends afterward. Because I believe both crews handled it properly. I learned my lesson and I believe they felt better because they got there point across.

But imagine if my Dad would have reacted like alot of Dad's and crews react like when this happens. If he would have stood up to them and fought with them like I did nothing wrong. He could have said it is just racing get over it. You know my career could have ended up alot differently. I could have hurt someone badly, made alot of enemies, but through my dad teaching me the right way I grew up racing people with respect. If I couldn't pass you clean I wasn't going to pass you. Yes I made mistakes throughout my career but I never crashed anyone on purpose. I raced over 20 years in this sport and I can count on one hand the amount of times I got into someone and caused them to crash. I also won alot of races doing it this way while gaining respect from my fellow competitors. I took it as an honor that people felt they could race within inches of me and not have to worry. So I thank my Dad for training me the right way and hope you other fathers and crews will train your drivers the same way.

I think this would do more to solve the problem than anything else.

Sorry for the grammer and spelling.

Originally Posted by riskybrisky5 I am going to share a story with you from a time early in my career. It was at Tris State Speedway where we all know slidejobs are the norm. I had already won a few races there and pulled alot of clean slide jobs off. This particular night Gary Hayhurst Jr. and I were racing very hard for the win. I totally miss judged a slidejob at got into Gary pretty good. I went on to win the race but I knew in my heart I did not win it the right way. But here is the point of my story. My father knew that I had pulled a bone head move. So while I was in victory lane he new the Hayhurst's were very mad. So he told Gary Sr. that they could go and scream at me do what ever they want to me but do not hit him. He knew that I needed to learn my lesson. Instead of standing up for me and saying that is just racing we were going for the win and you would have did the same thing. I remember pulling into the pits and the whole Hayhurst crew surrounding me. They beat on the wing yelled at me in the cockpit and a few more things but never touched me. I felt absolutely terrible for what I had done to him. When they were done I apologized and said I was sorry and it would not happen again. We were friends before and we were friends afterward. Because I believe both crews handled it properly. I learned my lesson and I believe they felt better because they got there point across. But imagine if my Dad would have reacted like alot of Dad's and crews react like when this happens. If he would have stood up to them and fought with them like I did nothing wrong. He could have said it is just racing get over it. You know my career could have ended up alot differently. I could have hurt someone badly, made alot of enemies, but through my dad teaching me the right way I grew up racing people with respect. If I couldn't pass you clean I wasn't going to pass you. Yes I made mistakes throughout my career but I never crashed anyone on purpose. I raced over 20 years in this sport and I can count on one hand the amount of times I got into someone and caused them to crash. I also won alot of races doing it this way while gaining respect from my fellow competitors. I took it as an honor that people felt they could race within inches of me and not have to worry. So I thank my Dad for training me the right way and hope you other fathers and crews will train your drivers the same way. I think this would do more to solve the problem than anything else. Sorry for the grammer and spelling.

I hope people read this. That is a lesson you can take with you in everyday life as well. Food for thought.

Kevin Briscoe = Pat O'Connor Award winner

[Jerry Spencer]

If it is in the rules enforce it, I like the fact that they had the backbone to not look the other way. Don thank you for putting a top notch car on the track when and where you decide to race. If I remember right you pay good drivers to drive your car not the other way around. Risky I also thank you for what you have done to make this deal a little more enjoyable to everyone.

Jerry

[Bluteam]

Tim - you certainly raise a valid concern. Going on an assumption that this is a perfect world, it would seem reasonable to have a system of rules and order that could apply equally all around.

I always subscribed to the judging rules in QMA as, while not being perfect, a necessity to instill in children the idea of fairness and as a tool to teach them properly. I automatically assumed that once we moved on from a childrens activity(QM's), that the rules of the officials and/or unwritten law of the pits would prevail. Yet we didn't make it out of our second race before I discovered a tier system of standards.

I guess I've discovered that it all just adds up to how much you're willing to give, take, or look the other way in order to fulfill a desire to race. My threshold is low for double standards and interpretation, thus why I am a better spectator than a participant.

My kid on the other hand - just wants to race. But we all have our breaking points. It looks like at least one driver and a set of officials found theirs in that race.

Ted