Midget Tires

6157 · 11/21/08, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMoore10

I don't claim to be an expert on any of this

Could have fooled us.

DonMoore10 · 11/21/08, 12:37 AM

Jason,

I'd be interested in knowing more about the tire/wheel combination they are using in the IRS. Sounds to me that they are on to something. Like I said before, three cheers for them to AT LEAST try something different and to think out of the box.

Sprint63122 · 11/21/08, 1:04 AM

Has for the tires let them run the SP4 if it is a harder tire and mark it at the beginning of the night you run the same right rear tire all night no changing at all.They should do the same thing with the sprint cars with the DT3 that has worked out pretty well everyone buys the same compound tire to begin with.Just need to get the tire companies even though they have exclusive rights on that tire to sell them at a reasonable price to begin with.

RacinJason · 11/21/08, 2:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMoore10

Jason,

I'd be interested in knowing more about the tire/wheel combination they are using in the IRS. Sounds to me that they are on to something. Like I said before, three cheers for them to AT LEAST try something different and to think out of the box.

I have used these tires at Grundy. They worked great. I have never personally used them on dirt. The IRS guys seem to like them. I think there are 3 sizes available. Fronts, left rear, and right rear. All the same compound. Fronts were and may still be under $100 and the rears were just over $100. They like them because they last a long time and putting a new one on all the time doesn't help. They use same wheels as dirt cars except the RR is an 8".

The main problem in my opinion is quantity not compound. Limit the number of tires you can use. If you make a SP4 rule all the top teams with the big $$$ will still be putting a new tire on every race to get the edge. So now you have to do it to get the same edge. So you didn't accomplish anything.

If you make a quantity rule and teams are using super soft tires they are going to burn more tires up and use up there allowed tires. This would force them to run a harder tire. Win win situation. You are now using tires that last longer and using less of them :wink

Jason

9racing · 11/21/08, 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMoore10

Jason,

I'd be interested in knowing more about the tire/wheel combination they are using in the IRS. Sounds to me that they are on to something. Like I said before, three cheers for them to AT LEAST try something different and to think out of the box.

Im 50,50 on this.. Half says if your angry about the price to run a full blown midget then sell it.. and move to a more "sportsman" class.. i mean you cant penalize stewart for having to much money.. and on the other side.. i dont think the middle class racers should be punished either.. But we are talking racing, and i cant think of anything that is cheap in racing.. Hell a new shifterkart can run you upwards of 10 grand for a full moto setup.. and thats just gokarts.. I will agree with you on Jason, hes got something going with the max number of meats you can slap on during a race.. but then again you will find some one or someway to Exploit it..{tire failure and whatnot}

JstAbvVMC · 11/21/08, 5:43 AM

It seems that that the USAC bashers here never have anything good to say about anything. Jerry is right, running small hard tires is not that simple. It presents it's own issues, heat cycles for one is more of a problem for us than wear. And 9racing is right too, if you want to race it ain't cheap period so suck it up. USAC Western States made a new rule this year for the pavement racing that worked well. First time on the track at the event the two right sides are marked and those are the tires that stay on the car all night. If not it's the back of the A for you. And yes they check and yes there are provisions for flats and other issues. Bottom line is that it worked well after some issues were worked out. Some teams skipped the heat race (that meant nothing) just to save the tires. NOW HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT DON...It was USAC's IDEA to try and cut the teams costs a little. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it....

6157 · 11/21/08, 6:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JstAbvVMC

It seems that that the USAC bashers here never have anything good to say about anything. Jerry is right, running small hard tires is not that simple. It presents it's own issues, heat cycles for one is more of a problem for us than wear. And 9racing is right too, if you want to race it ain't cheap period so suck it up. USAC Western States made a new rule this year for the pavement racing that worked well. First time on the track at the event the two right sides are marked and those are the tires that stay on the car all night. If not it's the back of the A for you. And yes they check and yes there are provisions for flats and other issues. Bottom line is that it worked well after some issues were worked out. Some teams skipped the heat race (that meant nothing) just to save the tires. NOW HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT DON...It was USAC's IDEA to try and cut the teams costs a little. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it....

I heard most of the national teams that ran the Vegas show were happy with this tire rule with the exception of one or two. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one or two were not happy.

I've always advocated a NASCAR-type tire rule, where you get a minimum number of sets to last you the entire night. Once you run out of tires, you start incurring a penalty of laps per X amount of tires.

rjmoul · 11/21/08, 9:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fisher79

Forgive me here, but when I think about midget parts that cost too much, tires are not the first things that come to mind. I understand that for a car owner every single expense is important, but isn't the ridiculous cost of midget engines a bigger concern at this point?

Does having a harder/smaller tire require less HP to the track? Does that in turn help to also address some of the engine cost?

I am sure that testing could be done to find a tire that is harder but yet not so that it blisters over too quickly. Also once you find the tire compund, you could post race tech the tires to be sure that they do not durometer any less that that.

Bob Moul

Racerrob · 11/21/08, 11:03 AM

I would welcome the opportunity to spend less on tires. But let’s talk about some of the technical issues involved.

Why does a tire blister? A tire blisters because too much heat builds up inside the rubber block/tread causing the air to expand and there are not enough exit passages to allow the air to escape thus blistering the block/tread.

What causes heat in a tire? Heat is caused by the friction generated when the tire slips across the surface of the track. This could be caused be excessive wheel spin (no forward bite) or side slippage (no side bite) or a combination of both. A hard tire has less natural adhesion to the track surface than a soft tire which makes the hard tire slip more easily than the soft tire.

Why not run a soft tire all the time then? A soft tire can actually rip the blocks/tread right off the tire or wear the tread down to the tire carcass during a race. Also, a soft tire can overheat and actually lose adhesion to the track by releasing oil through the heating process (tires getting “greasy”).

At most tracks we run the DT3 has been a good tire as far as a trade off between soft and hard. It requires quite a bit of grooving and siping after mounting to prevent blistering.
We still generally blister one tire a night, sometimes more sometimes none. At Oskalossa, we were on the track 4 times and blistered 4 tires! Overall the DT3 has probably been a step in the right direction as to controlling costs but it is not the ideal tire at all tracks.

On pavement the number of heat cycles is probably more important than the number of laps on a tire. Every time a tire heats up and then cools down it is called a heat cycle. Each heat cycle lessens the amount of adhesion (or grip) a tire has. Therefore on pavement where the racing grove is generally narrow, having more grip (new tires/fewer heat cycles) than the other racer is a big advantage.

The Western States guys have it right for pavement with limiting it to1 set of right side tires per night of racing. I made this suggestion to Jason and Jason this year and we discussed how to structure police and enforce the rule. We all thought the idea had merit but that the devil would be in the details. I did not know about the Western States guys doing this at the time of the discussion, but it sounds like they may have worked out the bugs and the National series could model off of them.

Lastly, as many of you know I am very much in favor of competition and free trade. I am philosophically opposed to one manufacturer having a monopoly on the supply as it disincentives them to improve the product or reduce the costs to the end users. I am curious as to how the Knoxville rule worked out in the long run. Are there still as many choices of tires? Does the competition cause the manufacturers to keep prices low? Do special teams receive special tires?

While many proposed rules may sound good and be well intentioned, the unintended consequences of the rule may just end up making the situation worse than the status quo. I just ask that before any new rules are made “for the benefit of the racers”, opinions from ALL parties be solicited and logic supported by data and analysis be employed.

Rob Hoffman

interpreter66 · 11/21/08, 11:20 AM

i know here that the T.B.A.R.A pavement series you have to run the same tire in the feature that you ran in the heat. they stamp the tire before each heat race. if you have a flat or other problem with the tire after the heat,you tell the official's and they have you start last,it seem's to have helped the smaller team's compete on a more even playing field as far as tire's are concerned.

11/21/08, 5:43 AM	#26 Re: Midget Tires
JstAbvVMC Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 272	It seems that that the USAC bashers here never have anything good to say about anything. Jerry is right, running small hard tires is not that simple. It presents it's own issues, heat cycles for one is more of a problem for us than wear. And 9racing is right too, if you want to race it ain't cheap period so suck it up. USAC Western States made a new rule this year for the pavement racing that worked well. First time on the track at the event the two right sides are marked and those are the tires that stay on the car all night. If not it's the back of the A for you. And yes they check and yes there are provisions for flats and other issues. Bottom line is that it worked well after some issues were worked out. Some teams skipped the heat race (that meant nothing) just to save the tires. NOW HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT DON...It was USAC's IDEA to try and cut the teams costs a little. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.... _________________________________________________ Last edited by JstAbvVMC; 11/21/08 at 5:45 AM. Reason: spelling

11/21/08, 12:37 AM	#22 Re: Midget Tires
DonMoore10 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,474	Jason, I'd be interested in knowing more about the tire/wheel combination they are using in the IRS. Sounds to me that they are on to something. Like I said before, three cheers for them to AT LEAST try something different and to think out of the box.

11/21/08, 1:04 AM	#23 Re: Midget Tires
Sprint63122 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 545	Has for the tires let them run the SP4 if it is a harder tire and mark it at the beginning of the night you run the same right rear tire all night no changing at all.They should do the same thing with the sprint cars with the DT3 that has worked out pretty well everyone buys the same compound tire to begin with.Just need to get the tire companies even though they have exclusive rights on that tire to sell them at a reasonable price to begin with.

11/21/08, 11:03 AM	#29 Re: Midget Tires
Racerrob Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 237	I would welcome the opportunity to spend less on tires. But let’s talk about some of the technical issues involved. Why does a tire blister? A tire blisters because too much heat builds up inside the rubber block/tread causing the air to expand and there are not enough exit passages to allow the air to escape thus blistering the block/tread. What causes heat in a tire? Heat is caused by the friction generated when the tire slips across the surface of the track. This could be caused be excessive wheel spin (no forward bite) or side slippage (no side bite) or a combination of both. A hard tire has less natural adhesion to the track surface than a soft tire which makes the hard tire slip more easily than the soft tire. Why not run a soft tire all the time then? A soft tire can actually rip the blocks/tread right off the tire or wear the tread down to the tire carcass during a race. Also, a soft tire can overheat and actually lose adhesion to the track by releasing oil through the heating process (tires getting “greasy”). At most tracks we run the DT3 has been a good tire as far as a trade off between soft and hard. It requires quite a bit of grooving and siping after mounting to prevent blistering. We still generally blister one tire a night, sometimes more sometimes none. At Oskalossa, we were on the track 4 times and blistered 4 tires! Overall the DT3 has probably been a step in the right direction as to controlling costs but it is not the ideal tire at all tracks. On pavement the number of heat cycles is probably more important than the number of laps on a tire. Every time a tire heats up and then cools down it is called a heat cycle. Each heat cycle lessens the amount of adhesion (or grip) a tire has. Therefore on pavement where the racing grove is generally narrow, having more grip (new tires/fewer heat cycles) than the other racer is a big advantage. The Western States guys have it right for pavement with limiting it to1 set of right side tires per night of racing. I made this suggestion to Jason and Jason this year and we discussed how to structure police and enforce the rule. We all thought the idea had merit but that the devil would be in the details. I did not know about the Western States guys doing this at the time of the discussion, but it sounds like they may have worked out the bugs and the National series could model off of them. Lastly, as many of you know I am very much in favor of competition and free trade. I am philosophically opposed to one manufacturer having a monopoly on the supply as it disincentives them to improve the product or reduce the costs to the end users. I am curious as to how the Knoxville rule worked out in the long run. Are there still as many choices of tires? Does the competition cause the manufacturers to keep prices low? Do special teams receive special tires? While many proposed rules may sound good and be well intentioned, the unintended consequences of the rule may just end up making the situation worse than the status quo. I just ask that before any new rules are made “for the benefit of the racers”, opinions from ALL parties be solicited and logic supported by data and analysis be employed. Rob Hoffman

11/21/08, 11:20 AM	#30 Re: Midget Tires
interpreter66 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,403	i know here that the T.B.A.R.A pavement series you have to run the same tire in the feature that you ran in the heat. they stamp the tire before each heat race. if you have a flat or other problem with the tire after the heat,you tell the official's and they have you start last,it seem's to have helped the smaller team's compete on a more even playing field as far as tire's are concerned.