[c47]

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester I don't condone booing anyone. Do I get a little happier if some drivers win over others Id say so and its only mostly because I've met them that make em more of a favorite to me. However. This is far from anything new, far from a indiana thing and USAC has nothing to do with it. Dale Sr. and Steve Kinser had a ton of haters back in the 80s and 90s. I don't get the cheering a wreck. However knowing someone else, now can win..............? Also However and I'll give this example. I was at THE FIELD a few weeks back and there was a big two night Powri show in IL going on same night and some fans around me were informing me on Powri. I said I can tell you the top four before they even race, I had all the drivers right and only third and fourth were swapped in finishing order. If I could pick horse races like this. I could be a team owner and not a fan I have no doubt that Bell and Abreu are among the best of the best and I root for them. However, It's always a bit sweeter when a underdog wins. I was reading through the ARDC rules the other day and wonder why the toyotas are banned? I got nothing against Toyota, But if its anything like Mopar was entering Sprint cars. Open up the checkbook, its gonna take a boatload of cash to catch em

i'm pretty sure that the toyota was banned because of cost. i have "heard" a few prices for a new toyota. some were in the 60k range, some were in the 30k range. the price is in the 30k range, i know there are more expensive motors running ardc.....if they are in the 60k range, im glad they banned them before someone bought one and obsoleted every motor running ardc now.....but i have always believed that its not so much the motor in midget racing. just cause you can buy it doesnt mean you can drive it. keith kunz tweeted a couple days ago that one of his drivers won driving a fike car and said something to the effect of "see....its not just the motors, these kids are flat outdriving everyone"......but having keith kunz and toyota behind you sure makes the drivers job a lot easier

[DAD]

To the die hard midget race car owner, price is not really the object. The cost of motors etc. is more like a filter for them. If Midget racing was cheap then everybody would be racing them and to their way of thinking would devalue the the finish product. When ever racing organizers just like the government say they are making a regulation to make something less expensive for the party involved the parties had better hold on to their wallet's for dear life because they are fixing to try to get into it and make themselves comfortable.

From what I understand the toyota like the new mopar has a larger bore than the esslinger and allows for larger valves, the esslinger are as big as they can get without doing serious changes to the design. So after 40 years of development it looks like the little Pinto is reaching the end of the line.

The problem as I see it is these valves are getting bigger and bigger and heavier and heavier. To keep them under control at 10,000+ rpm's they need stronger and stronger valve springs. While these valves are growing in Diameter of the head the diameter of the valve stem is basically staying the same size. So they have developed this area into a weak link. The valve where the head attaches to the stem tends to break off right at the junction. No amount of money is going to fix this problem. So you got this guy that just bough a motor that costs more than many peoples homes pushing his race car off for hot laps and low and behold one of them overstressed valve breaks off at 10,000 rpm's. What happens next is the valve rattles around in there at a high rate of speed, punches a hole in the piston and becomes lodged then it continues up the stroke where it meets the bottom of the cylinder head, and the other valve, this impact dislodges the other valve and destroys the cylinder head, and it starts shaking around in there also thus jamming up the piston in the bore and breaking the connecting rod which punches a hole in the side of the block and destroys a $4000.00 crankshaft. If the driver keeps the car upright and all that oil does not ignite this is about all the damage done. We have just turned a $60,000.00 marvel of engineering into $60.00 dollars worth of scrap metal. To the wealthy racer no big deal> For the rest of us we would be looking for a pistol to end our misery.

Honest Dad himself

[racenut69]

When Toyota and Honda trickled down to Dirt Racing(UMP Mods and SLM),I said on another Forum that Racing was gonna change and not for the better..Just like the IRL,rule changes and Factory Dollars plus TV make the world go round!...Big E told Gordon years ago that if you aren't getting booed,you aren't doing something right!..I don't cheer when someone crashes or spins,that is Bush League!..I don't want anyone to get hurt,but I don't mind when someone like Scott Bloomquist can't finish a race,cause I don't care for that guy..I know he drives a Mud Cab!...

[johnnythunderhead]

I would have to say low I q, too much beer and piss poor upbringing, you can generally spot em a mile away

[Phylo82]

How anyone can take pleasure in watching an openwheel car tumble knowing there is a human being inside is beyond me. I cringe at the sight of it.

[Stealth87]

Originally Posted by racenut69 When Toyota and Honda trickled down to Dirt Racing(UMP Mods and SLM),I said on another Forum that Racing was gonna change and not for the better..Just like the IRL,rule changes and Factory Dollars plus TV make the world go round!...Big E told Gordon years ago that if you aren't getting booed,you aren't doing something right!..I don't cheer when someone crashes or spins,that is Bush League!..I don't want anyone to get hurt,but I don't mind when someone like Scott Bloomquist can't finish a race,cause I don't care for that guy..I know he drives a Mud Cab!...

Anyone else think someone should start a series for motors say... pre 2005? I think it would get some cars out of garages and lets be honest, the speeds aren't THAT much different. The track record at Angell Park Speedway still stands from 2000 (I believe that was the year it was set by Jerry). I miss the midget racing from the late 80s to mid 2000's. Tons of cars still out running, the Hut Hundred was still run at Terre Haute, people were designing and building their own stuff, and it was anyone's race come feature time. I don't have a ton of years under me, but those were the good old days of my generation, and they are slowly slipping away....

[baltimore]

Originally Posted by davidm Are you justifying cheering when someone crashes? Do you cheer at a football game if a player gets his leg broken? Sorry I have a hard time seeing someone crashing a race car as some level of Fun!

dude your being howard county PC you post crash shots on wgmb hypocrite [i have a hard time seeing someone crashing a race car as fun ] but i will take pictures and post them haha

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Mud Packer There are always a few in every crowd. It has always troubled me when someone cheers at anothers misfortune. I have seen "fans"? openly cheer when a driver flips. I have seen that if you win too much, people turn rather quickly. Nature of the beast I guess.

First answer was spot on. Its not a USAC thing or Indiana thing. The Kunz cars are fast no doubt about it and they win a lot of races so therefore people dont like em, simple as that. Look at Jimmie Johnson in that NASCAR crap or Scott Bloomquist in late models. Both can wheel a car and both have won a lot of races and therefore you hear a ton of boos for them at the track. I've seen/heard as many people root against Levi Jones, Dave Darland, Bryan Clauson over the years as I have cheer for them simply because they all have won a ton of races. Huge case in point: when people were saying they were glad Earnhardt died, Dale could wheel a car and won all those championships so people started not to like him.

I think everyone has a right to their own opinion and I'll be honest, I get a grin on my face when my driver is being tested by his rival and his rival ends up with a flat right rear but I'll never cheer when somebody takes a tumble, that's just ridiculous.

[Flatrightrear]

There's a good thread on Sammy on Hosehead now. He's very well respected in the pit area from what I can gather. I personally watched him spend 20-30 minutes working on Brian Paulus car that had a steering wheel problem at Granite City years ago.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Stealth87 Anyone else think someone should start a series for motors say... pre 2005? I think it would get some cars out of garages and lets be honest, the speeds aren't THAT much different. The track record at Angell Park Speedway still stands from 2000 (I believe that was the year it was set by Jerry). I miss the midget racing from the late 80s to mid 2000's. Tons of cars still out running, the Hut Hundred was still run at Terre Haute, people were designing and building their own stuff, and it was anyone's race come feature time. I don't have a ton of years under me, but those were the good old days of my generation, and they are slowly slipping away....

Stealth

The problem with most open wheel class racing is the age of the motor. Builders have taken old and outdated technology in the form of 40 to 50 year old engine designs and have refined and refined them into very powerful abet rather fragile pieces of racing technology. All of this development is very expensive and is payed for by the racer. The new engines? racing today be it sprint car or midget or even late model share nothing with their original engine they were derived from. Everything from the oil pan to the cylinder head to the fuel injectors are special built and engineered for racing only. Thus the high cost of racing power plants.

Racing groups for financial, self interest or other reasons (stupidity) have chosen to make rules that exclude newer technology engines. Wanting a class with only older engine designs is not the answer. They are still special built racing engines and parts are expensive.

We race mini sprints. These cars are basically a Midget chassis powered by a very-very late model and very stock motor cycle engine. We can produce lap times very close to the sprint Car and midgets with what now is a $3500.00 motor. The only problem is right now the most powerful motors produced by the manufactures are 1000cc's in displacement. This is the most competitive class right now. They do not spend as much effort on the larger engines. The riders call these bikes "Crouch Rockets" and that is what they are. They tend to crash quite a few of them thus a constant supply of new race engines for us.

For any class of racing to be affordable they need an abundant supply of engines available preferable from a salvage yard. Some of us Mini Sprinters are taking a step back now not seeing the folly of over regulation and making rules to save racers money that will eventually make our racing un affordable if we do not watch out. Over restrictive Rules are expensive for the racer and hinder development.


Like I said race organizations Midgets in particular have stuck to their rules developed more than 50 years ago and added to year by year with very few deletions. For engines to be in- expensive and abundant they need to come from salvage yards. Over the years car makers have evolved and engine design and displacement have changed. Gone are the days of the 350 ci. 2 valve push rod V8 Motors or for that matter even the 2300cc single overhead cam design of the Ford Pinto. For economy the car builders have gone to very small 4 cylinder dual overhead cams motor of 1500cc's or less. The mid size and sport size cars Mustangs, Camaro's, even Cads and Lincolns have chosen 3000 to 3700cc's 4valve V6 motors. These V6 motors are producing 300+ horsepower in stock form as delivered to the consumer. They can be purchased for 3 to 4 thousand dollars in a low mileage package from salvage yards or bought outright new as a long block for about $6000.00. With injection, pistons, rods, valves, and cams they could easily produce 400+ horsepower in a very under-stressed design that would last for years instead of races.

The change would maybe put a hurt on High end engine builders, but the smart ones would get on the band wagon and sell after market parts for these new "Crotch Rockets". The only thing missing would be a few very expensive castings, that after all were developed to keep an antique design competitive.

Taking mass merchandizes as an example. Make your money from thousands of new racers rather than milking a few very rich racers for as much money as you can get.

Promoters like Hobby class cars. They fill the pits with racers and the stands with family members and friends to watch the future Tony Stewart racing. Open wheel cars on the other hand have not developed big names and rivalries as they once did and do not do as good of job of filling the stands.

If we could bring back an open wheel hobby class the race track owners could maybe both fill the pits with racers and stands with fans. You don't have to take my word for it. Ask the guy that is doing just that right now? How is the attendance at Montpelier been Harold?


Honest Dad himself