Regarding a second draw: A second draw for a tie allows the 2 or more teams to put things back in the mix and scramble who is where in the feature. Otherwise, the teams in the heats 2 on down always get screwed. A second draw eliminates the guy in the first or second heat getting the favor.

The org that I raced with this weekend did not use transponders, but that would be a good solution.

I would go for qualifying any day rather than having a 75% chance of being screwed out of a position.

It makes no sense to me that three teams with the same point total are already predetermined by the heat race order. Why one team can be awarded the pole position and the other two 7th and 8th place is beyond me.

Top 16 in passing points from Saturday night

1. Ray 61
2. Allgaier 61
3. Loyet 59.5
4. Cone 56.5
5. Anderson 55
6. Altig 53.5
---------------(Top 6 invert cutoff)
7. Myers 53.5
8. Coons 53.5
9. Camfield 52
10.Lehman 50.5
11. Robbins 50.5
12. Robinson50.5
13. Daum 49
14. Beaucamp 49
15. Ballou 49
16. Knepper 47.5

If you were to have the same situation result from qualifying, (6, 7, 8 have identical qualifying times, I know it is not likely) p6 under most circumstances is supposed to go to the driver who posted that time first. This has been the standard practice used by myself and other scorers I have worked with for the last several years.

Should we now draw for drivers who qualify with the same time?

Basically what I am trying to say is that someone has to be the cut off point and those outside of that point will feel cheated. The person who scored the same points and had the highest draw will feel cheated if he has to draw to determine the tie and then ends up on the outside of the cut off because of the draw.

I'm not sure that everyone is thinking out of the box with this one. It's too easy to just accept anything that has been done one way for a long time. After all that gets all of us out of our comfort zone when something is changed.

Let me state a few foundation statements and let's see what we can come up with:

1. Race teams should be equal when they arrive at the track. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to participate in the racing program.

2. The heat races will determine the feature and semi feature lineup.

3. Each heat race shall be equal to the other heat races in terms of points awarded.

4. The outcome of the points totals and placement of teams in the feature or semi feature shall be blind to the order of the heat races. There shall be no penalty for any team regarding which heat they participated in.

OK... that is the foundation. Now the question is what do we do when 2, 3, 4, 5 or more teams tie for points?

Well, just to play Devil's Advocate, and going along with Don's theory, here are a few more questions:

1. Is the draw system (whether qualifying or not) really "fair" to all drivers? As each pill is drawn, there are less pills to choose from, which changes the odds of drawing a "good" number.

2. A "good" number is a matter of perspective as well. The track changes during qualifying and the heat races. Sometimes it gets better and sometimes it gets worse. Is this "fair" to all drivers?

Those are good points also, but again, we are talking about breaking ties and rarely do we have ties in qualifying since modern day tech can time cars in such detail. I certainly don't have any problem with qualifying, at least you're in control of your own destiny as opposed to gambling with the pill draw.

I've been talking about thinking out of the box, so here's a suggestion:

A pill draw would be held as usual. Heat race lineups assembled as usual. Here is the change. The racers would race for 7 laps ( could depend on the track ) maybe as few as five. White flag on the penultimate lap and then the checkered. The racers immediately form a single file line in the order of finish. Next lap around the flag person signals the racers to reverse the order and line up side by side for a second race ( or a continuation of the first race, however you want to look at it ). Green flag and another seven laps... heat race completed.

Points would be totalled for each leg of the heat race. Number of points awarded for position and passing could be increased to help avoid ties. This idea is a spinoff of the double feature concept used at the Montpelier midget race two years ago, which was very popular with the crowd and the Chili Bowl heat race concept where they run two qualifying heats.

To me this would be something very entertaining for the audience... which drivers are able to improve their position the most under two different circumstances! And will this concept help eliminate ties? I haven't done the math yet. I don't know.

Again, I'm trying to think out of the box and come up with new ways to present the product to the fans.

OK.. comments??

We sometimes did the double heat race format for the two years I've scored the micro-sprint races at Pittsfield. The lineup for the second race was inverted off the lineup of the first race. The winner got 10 points, with a one point drop for each position. (DNF's got zero) We had ties all over the place. If no one dropped out of either of their heat races, we'd often see things like five or six-way ties for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in points.

The ties were broken by going back to the original draw. So you'd basically make everyone run 20 laps of heat racing, and the final point standings would look a lot like the original pill draw order.

Granted, the top 6 in points would re-draw for their starting positions in the dash for cash, but 7th starting spot thru the ballance of the feature grid still often resembled the draw.

Good info there. Thanks!! Not many solutions coming forth. :crying: