[midgetmaniac]

Originally Posted by Tom Re-read your comments about Kevin Swindell,Brad Loyet and now Dakoda Armstrong and re-think this position. If I am to take your latest screed seriously, you are advocating for Dave Darland (age 43), Jerry Coons Jr (age 37), Jon Stanbrough (42 in October), Tracy Hines (there and back - age 37) as better candidates for a developmental program than high school senior Dakoda Armstrong. You would also begrudge Dakoda the chance to run ARCA so Brad Sweet can (Brad is already racing ARCA events). Better yet, you figure Levi Jones is more deserving (consider how many midget races he has been asked to run since TSR shut him down). Dominating success in non-wing sprint cars on dirt alone does not guarantee stock car success or Brad Noffsinger would be in the chase this year. Who's left from that list? Cole Whitt: an extremely underfunded, but hard working kid who would surely capture the eyes of the developmental gurus at the higher levels if only his funding were better? That doesn't sound like an accurate description of his program to me. I believe he will be moving on eventually anyway. He seems to have everything needed to be a success in professional pavement racing. Driving talent, youth, funding and a great personality. Brad Kuhn. The real reason you rag on all of the other up and coming midget guys. I don't know if you're a relative or just a fan, but you are not nearly as objective as you claim. Although Devin has the screenname, you are the #1 Brad Kuhn fan in my book. Brad is starting to get to the age (28 in October) where his chances for success at any level higher than the one he is at are declining rapidly. Your posts suggest bitterness about that and if there is, I don't blame Brad for that. Short of winning some of the major titles (USAC, Chili Bowl, Belleville etc.) there isn't much more for him to accomplish in midgets. He has done enough to prove that he has special talent. If he is to have any chance at all of advancement, he is going to have to show a car owner how that talent will carry over into driving long events on pavement. I am surprised that he isn't a Silver Crown regular. I think that would help. Now, if I may get back on topic. Congratulations to Dakoda Armstrong for his strong finish at Salem. One of only three cars left on the lead lap! Looking at the results, I also see ex-midget competitor Tom Hessert notched an 8th place finish.

Yes you can take me seriously, I would put those drivers in my car before I would a high school senior, especially if it is my dime. If I am investing that kind of $ in a ARCA car, I want a proven mature driver who will take care of equipment. But here in lies the difference , it is not the owners dime anymore , it is the drivers or family of drivers dime. Everyone on this site knows how hard I have been on Kevin S.and Brad L. , but I even think they are more deserving than Dakoda in getting a ride like this. I have only been tough on these 3 young drivers but their are serveral young talented drivers that are very impessive to me. Bryan Clauson has kept Brad Kuhn from having the most dominate year in midget racing since Tony was racing at this level. BC is the real deal. Bobby S. is very good on pavement (I wish he would try dirt once) in all 3 classes whether it be midget , sprint or silver crown. I know BS and CW are running some races at the next level and they will do very well. Now as far as being Brad Kuhn's #1 fan I don't know , but I imagine there are some race fans in Wisconsin who would argue otherwise. Still no one has told me where he started but good job for finishing 3rd at Salem Dakoda.

[Tom]

Hi Brad,

Sorry for the delayed response but I was out getting rained on at Beaver Dam.
I was going to send you a PM, but since you have called me out publically, I'll address your
points in the same manner they were made.


Where do you get off dragging me into a post that has nothing to do with me???

You were one of several drivers that were dragged into this post not by me, but by Mr. Maniac.


My name was never mentioned until you decided to throw it out there as your depiction of why you think this person is so negative.

See above, though I do think Maniac's antagonistic remarks toward Loyet, Armstrong and Swindell are due in no small part to his feelings about you.

On a side note, just so you know how accurate your stats are, my birthday is not in October.

Sorry about that, I was responding from memory. Looking at my records, I see you're already 28. Doesn't change my opinion any though.

Back to my point.......how does this person going off on a tangent about what is or isn't true have anything to do with me?

See my answer to questions #1 and #2. Beyond that, I don't know. You'd have to ask him.

You suggest he is my biggest fan, but then go on to call me bitter........not him. Bitter about what Tom? Winning races and Championships? Bitter about driving for the best team going right now? Bitter about winning races for some of the biggest names in racing? I am not bitter Tom, I am blessed. The places I have been, the people I have met, the races I have won, the teams I have driven for.........I am truly blessed. So what if NASCAR isn't the end destination.

Actually, I said the posts (not only here but also on MM) suggested bitterness. I stand by that statement.

I'm not sure whether or not you are personally bitter (about the lack of opportunity for you to move on, not about the success you've had and are having) and will happily accept your statement that you are blessed to be where you are. Nonetheless this is the one of the points that Maniac and I agree on. There should be more opportunity for all of midget racing's best to pursue the sport at a higher level should they so choose. I'm not sure how that's going to change though.

I know I would much rather have you racing midgets because that is what I support. Should you move on to some stock car deal, I will read about your accomplishments. If you stay where you are, I will witness your accomplishments.

Selfish as it is, I am truly grateful that I have been able to enjoy the careers of guys like yourself, Steve Knepper, Jerry Coons, Rich Vogler, Kevin Olson, Robby Flock, Kevin Doty, Dan Boorse, Scott Hatton etc. etc. Skilled midget drivers have provided me with many years of enjoyment and if the sport stays afloat will undoubtedly do so for the rest of my days.


I know that you and I have never seen eye to eye in your position as assistant to the announcer/information gatherer at Angell Park, but that isn't really a reason to drag me into a disagreement you have with someone on a message board. Seriously Tom, how can you call me bitter or anything else based on some racing fans opinon about anything. If you want to call me something currently, call me pissed off. That is what I am, pissed off. At guys like you that, twist posts on message boards and drag drivers/owners/teams/crews into situations based on what a fan of theirs puts out there on some message board.


FWIW, I don't recall doing anything to create that conflict. If you feel I did, I hope we can discuss and put that past us. From my point of view, this not seeing eye to eye is all on you. I can only speculate that you felt that I wasn't enough of an ally in your business disagreement. If that's not it, I truly am baffled.

My beef isn't with you, but with Maniac, who has come in to the two boards that I love to read and used you as a reason to trash the names of some of your fellow competitors. I certainly don't mind when he posts positive things about you, but when he takes off after some of the other guys you race against, he pisses me off. I am not in the habit of regularly offering my opinions on these boards, but will occasionally reply when I can be helpful or when someone really annoys me. Maniac has that ability. If the personal attacks aren't there, I'm with you in lurker mode.

Think about this as well. If my purpose was to use this post to attack you, I probably would have left out the part about you being a special talent. I assure you that I meant that too.

If a supporter of mine comes on this board a posts something, that is great. But that doesn't mean that we share the same opinions or views about anything.
Doesn't matter if that person is a fan/family member/spouse/whatever.

I think that depends on what they have to say and who they are. I would hope the opinions expressed by Maniac are not yours and that he is just some overzealous fan with no special insight, but since he is firing his pot shots anonymously, who knows? Do you know who he is?

Since I'm not interested in continuing the debate between you and I in a public forum, you can PM me if you want to discuss further or just look me up at the next race we are both at if there's something else that needs to be said.

---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ----------

Originally Posted by midgetmaniac Yes you can take me seriously, I would put those drivers in my car before I would a high school senior, especially if it is my dime. If I am investing that kind of $ in a ARCA car, I want a proven mature driver who will take care of equipment. But here in lies the difference , it is not the owners dime anymore , it is the drivers or family of drivers dime. Everyone on this site knows how hard I have been on Kevin S.and Brad L. , but I even think they are more deserving than Dakoda in getting a ride like this. I have only been tough on these 3 young drivers but their are serveral young talented drivers that are very impessive to me. Bryan Clauson has kept Brad Kuhn from having the most dominate year in midget racing since Tony was racing at this level. BC is the real deal. Bobby S. is very good on pavement (I wish he would try dirt once) in all 3 classes whether it be midget , sprint or silver crown. I know BS and CW are running some races at the next level and they will do very well. Now as far as being Brad Kuhn's #1 fan I don't know , but I imagine there are some race fans in Wisconsin who would argue otherwise , especially that guy who races around in the wheelchair. I do agree with you though about what you have said about Brad K.

The purpose of a "development deal" is to train a young driver for a successful career in the highest levels of racing.
The Penske organization is not investing that kind of $ to put a guy in ARCA, they are helping him with an ARCA deal for now as part of a long term plan to move him into Cup racing (presumably) some day. No organization is going to invest time, effort and capital into a driver who is not going to have the time to develop into a top level star. As a result, most developmental drivers will be in their late teens or early 20's. In short, ARCA is just one of many stepping stones before the ultimate prize is achieved and not an end destination for anyone.

I'm glad you're coming around to the idea that Kevin Swindell might be deserving of a shot, perhaps you remembered his charge through the field at Knoxville this year!

Bryan Clauson is another guy who is deserving of the chance to build on what he has already accomplished in limited stock car opportunities. He's young enough that he should get another chance.

I'm more of a dirt guy, so I don't know that much about Santos, but he seems almost unstoppable on pavement. I think of him as this era's Mike Bliss. Bliss wasn't that tough on dirt, but didn't have many opportunities to practice in the Pacific Northwest, much like Santos in New England.

Much as I like him, I don't see Brad Loyet as a good candidate until he loses his aversion to pavement. I think he has the ability to run well on pavement; I saw his first two midget races ever (at Tucson and Turkey Night - both paved) and both were top 10 runs, yet Saturday they had Tracy Hines running an 05 car at Columbus.
I'm worried about the shortage of pavement in Chad Boat's schedule this year as well.

Other guys who I would throw into the mix were I a development czar, are the Swanson brothers, Darren Hagen and Alex Bowman.

I'm not really anybody's #1 fan, I admire way too many drivers for that, but I can assure you that on the internet at least, no one is more supportive of Brad Kuhn (and contemptuous of his rivals) than you.

[midgetmaniac]

Originally Posted by Tom Hi Brad, Sorry for the delayed response but I was out getting rained on at Beaver Dam. I was going to send you a PM, but since you have called me out publically, I'll address your points in the same manner they were made. Where do you get off dragging me into a post that has nothing to do with me??? You were one of several drivers that were dragged into this post not by me, but by Mr. Maniac. My name was never mentioned until you decided to throw it out there as your depiction of why you think this person is so negative. See above, though I do think Maniac's antagonistic remarks toward Loyet, Armstrong and Swindell are due in no small part to his feelings about you. On a side note, just so you know how accurate your stats are, my birthday is not in October. Sorry about that, I was responding from memory. Looking at my records, I see you're already 28. Doesn't change my opinion any though. Back to my point.......how does this person going off on a tangent about what is or isn't true have anything to do with me? See my answer to questions #1 and #2. Beyond that, I don't know. You'd have to ask him. You suggest he is my biggest fan, but then go on to call me bitter........not him. Bitter about what Tom? Winning races and Championships? Bitter about driving for the best team going right now? Bitter about winning races for some of the biggest names in racing? I am not bitter Tom, I am blessed. The places I have been, the people I have met, the races I have won, the teams I have driven for.........I am truly blessed. So what if NASCAR isn't the end destination. Actually, I said the posts (not only here but also on MM) suggested bitterness. I stand by that statement. I'm not sure whether or not you are personally bitter (about the lack of opportunity for you to move on, not about the success you've had and are having) and will happily accept your statement that you are blessed to be where you are. Nonetheless this is the one of the points that Maniac and I agree on. There should be more opportunity for all of midget racing's best to pursue the sport at a higher level should they so choose. I'm not sure how that's going to change though. I know I would much rather have you racing midgets because that is what I support. Should you move on to some stock car deal, I will read about your accomplishments. If you stay where you are, I will witness your accomplishments. Selfish as it is, I am truly grateful that I have been able to enjoy the careers of guys like yourself, Steve Knepper, Jerry Coons, Rich Vogler, Kevin Olson, Robby Flock, Kevin Doty, Dan Boorse, Scott Hatton etc. etc. Skilled midget drivers have provided me with many years of enjoyment and if the sport stays afloat will undoubtedly do so for the rest of my days. I know that you and I have never seen eye to eye in your position as assistant to the announcer/information gatherer at Angell Park, but that isn't really a reason to drag me into a disagreement you have with someone on a message board. Seriously Tom, how can you call me bitter or anything else based on some racing fans opinon about anything. If you want to call me something currently, call me pissed off. That is what I am, pissed off. At guys like you that, twist posts on message boards and drag drivers/owners/teams/crews into situations based on what a fan of theirs puts out there on some message board. FWIW, I don't recall doing anything to create that conflict. If you feel I did, I hope we can discuss and put that past us. From my point of view, this not seeing eye to eye is all on you. I can only speculate that you felt that I wasn't enough of an ally in your business disagreement. If that's not it, I truly am baffled. My beef isn't with you, but with Maniac, who has come in to the two boards that I love to read and used you as a reason to trash the names of some of your fellow competitors. I certainly don't mind when he posts positive things about you, but when he takes off after some of the other guys you race against, he pisses me off. I am not in the habit of regularly offering my opinions on these boards, but will occasionally reply when I can be helpful or when someone really annoys me. Maniac has that ability. If the personal attacks aren't there, I'm with you in lurker mode. Think about this as well. If my purpose was to use this post to attack you, I probably would have left out the part about you being a special talent. I assure you that I meant that too. If a supporter of mine comes on this board a posts something, that is great. But that doesn't mean that we share the same opinions or views about anything. Doesn't matter if that person is a fan/family member/spouse/whatever. I think that depends on what they have to say and who they are. I would hope the opinions expressed by Maniac are not yours and that he is just some overzealous fan with no special insight, but since he is firing his pot shots anonymously, who knows? Do you know who he is? Since I'm not interested in continuing the debate between you and I in a public forum, you can PM me if you want to discuss further or just look me up at the next race we are both at if there's something else that needs to be said. ---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 AM ---------- The purpose of a "development deal" is to train a young driver for a successful career in the highest levels of racing. The Penske organization is not investing that kind of $ to put a guy in ARCA, they are helping him with an ARCA deal for now as part of a long term plan to move him into Cup racing (presumably) some day. No organization is going to invest time, effort and capital into a driver who is not going to have the time to develop into a top level star. As a result, most developmental drivers will be in their late teens or early 20's. In short, ARCA is just one of many stepping stones before the ultimate prize is achieved and not an end destination for anyone. I'm glad you're coming around to the idea that Kevin Swindell might be deserving of a shot, perhaps you remembered his charge through the field at Knoxville this year! Bryan Clauson is another guy who is deserving of the chance to build on what he has already accomplished in limited stock car opportunities. He's young enough that he should get another chance. I'm more of a dirt guy, so I don't know that much about Santos, but he seems almost unstoppable on pavement. I think of him as this era's Mike Bliss. Bliss wasn't that tough on dirt, but didn't have many opportunities to practice in the Pacific Northwest, much like Santos in New England. Much as I like him, I don't see Brad Loyet as a good candidate until he loses his aversion to pavement. I think he has the ability to run well on pavement; I saw his first two midget races ever (at Tucson and Turkey Night - both paved) and both were top 10 runs, yet Saturday they had Tracy Hines running an 05 car at Columbus. I'm worried about the shortage of pavement in Chad Boat's schedule this year as well. Other guys who I would throw into the mix were I a development czar, are the Swanson brothers, Darren Hagen and Alex Bowman. I'm not really anybody's #1 fan, I admire way too many drivers for that, but I can assure you that on the internet at least, no one is more supportive of Brad Kuhn (and contemptuous of his rivals) than you.

Though this whole debate , I have come from a owners point of view so when family /driver money gets involved that changes everything . My question to you is this , if it was your $ and you are in total control of your racing operation ,would you put Dakoda in your race car ahead of any of the drivers I listed? I am not coming around to ks at all ,I was just comparing him to Dakoda. My compaint with Kevin is that he has a tendency to drive over his head and in the process destroy his car or a competitors car. My complaint against BL is that some of his wins this yr have come against inferior equipment, and how many cars has he destroyed this yr.(PLEASE no one come on here mad about this.)If Brad had racked up 17 wins against tougher competition I would be his biggest advocate. I thank it is great that the Loyets travel to race as they do. In my opinion , BC victories are more impressive than BL'S. Brad has done well at times just not consistantly which I think comes with more seat time. I do like his passion and desire to win. Overall fom what I have seen , the young drivers that are coming up, it is safe to say ,we open wheel fans are going to continue to see good racing.

[DbSr]

Congrats Dakota :6....It's been a good 2 weeks for the Armstrong family...Dakota winning the prelude to the last feature in Joliet, Dalton winning the last feature ever at the stadium and Caleb winning at Columbus......







Now it just boggles my mind how some of you melon heads on here can turn a congratulatory post into this silliness ....start a different thread if you feel the need to take someone's moment of sunshine away

[ChaseTheRace!]

Dakota qualified 9th of 29 cars. Three cars finished on the lead lap, Lofton, Kligerman, and Dakota. So if Dakota can finish 3rd and NOT be good enough to be racing in ARCA, what about the rest of the 26 entries? Are none of them good enough or deserving either? You're fighting an uphill battle, you say he's not good enough, but you have all the results proving you're wrong.

I was there, witnessed the race first hand. Dakota was impressive, and is well deserving of the ride.

Congrats Dakota

Chase Barber

[Boston41]

Lots of discussion around 'Development Programs' used to prepare these drivers for the next level but the reality is if team owners cared one bit about their development drivers you wouldn't seeing kids get outted a seat when a European or big name throws their cap in the tin top ring, and you wouldnt see kids like BC running USAC.

Those who argue that the Armstrong deal is not 100% about money are truly the ignorant. He may have not 'earned' it, but whatever. I always like to see familiar names on the TV when I tune in on limited televised racing out East.

And to the original poster, you're self admitted 'old school' which means your theories and ideals are antiquated. This is 2009 and that is not how it works anymore. Is it unfortunate that drivers with more credentials get overlooked? Yup. Are the 43 best race car drivers in the country driving on Sunday? Nope. But racing at that level is a business, money talks, and there is nothing anyone can do.

[midgetmaniac]

Originally Posted by ChaseTheRace! Dakota qualified 9th of 29 cars. Three cars finished on the lead lap, Lofton, Kligerman, and Dakota. So if Dakota can finish 3rd and NOT be good enough to be racing in ARCA, what about the rest of the 26 entries? Are none of them good enough or deserving either? You're fighting an uphill battle, you say he's not good enough, but you have all the results proving you're wrong. I was there, witnessed the race first hand. Dakota was impressive, and is well deserving of the ride. Congrats Dakota Chase Barber

thank you chase, going from 9th to 3rd is good at salem as it can be very difficult to pass there.

---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Boston41 Lots of discussion around 'Development Programs' used to prepare these drivers for the next level but the reality is if team owners cared one bit about their development drivers you wouldn't seeing kids get outted a seat when a European or big name throws their cap in the tin top ring, and you wouldnt see kids like BC running USAC. Those who argue that the Armstrong deal is not 100% about money are truly the ignorant. He may have not 'earned' it, but whatever. I always like to see familiar names on the TV when I tune in on limited televised racing out East. And to the original poster, you're self admitted 'old school' which means your theories and ideals are antiquated. This is 2009 and that is not how it works anymore. Is it unfortunate that drivers with more credentials get overlooked? Yup. Are the 43 best race car drivers in the country driving on Sunday? Nope. But racing at that level is a business, money talks, and there is nothing anyone can do.

This is exactly where I am at. I'm old school and I don't like this buy a ride bullcrap. Can I do anything about it ,no but it is not in the best interest of the sport.Will I stop going to open wheel racing ,ABSOLUTLY not. I believe that it was the young midget/sprint racers in the 50-70's that made indy what it was then and now it is the young midget/sprints drivers:6 of today that make nascar so popular.

[onthegas7j]

do i wish i could see more guys that i know and root for moving up... I'd be remissed to say no, but racing is expensive i understand that... i wish i could afford to race but my meager salary in the miltary doesnt allow it so i cant why throw a fit when someone can race... i still wish BC could go back to the fenders i beleive he had a massive amount of potential, and really he still does hes not even 21 hes 2 months younger than me lol... look at Ricky Stenhouse... it can happen, do i wish it was different and that the deserving guys got the rides but this is the nature of the racing world right now hopefully it will all come around eventually

[Lauren Besecker]

Originally Posted by Boston41 Those who argue that the Armstrong deal is not 100% about money are truly the ignorant.

I disagree. The IGNORANT ones are the uninformed arguing with those who actually know what is going on. It's one thing to disagree and belabor perspectives, but as far as ignorance...yeah, that word is reserved for the morons who keep attempting to pass off their opinions and sheer CONJECTURE as fact.

I must also remark how incredibly kind it is that some of you keep bringing up BC as the standard by which everything else should be measured. 'Bout time you climbed aboard. Glad some of you were able to figure out how "good" BC is AFTER you ripped him to shreds with similar threads as this one not so long ago. BC IS (and ALWAYS HAS BEEN) the real deal. Some of you just figured that out AFTER he took a little visit back up this way to kick everyone's tail...while the rest of us (those who *might* know more about things than what they hear on a message board) knew that far before he ever headed south of the Mason Dixon line. This time, when he heads back to do his thing...at least he will have the peace and tranquil comfort of knowing that he was able to convince the open-wheel racing "fans" that he was worthy.

Now...I have a bit of a question...something to ponder, really.

Okay, so one of "our drivers" move on (for whatever reason the "fans" want to claim it is for)...with attitudes like these that are CONSTANTLY being presented, WHY would that driver (or even his rich daddy, so some of you say) even bother with fielding an open wheel team in the future?

You ask what a kid "like Dakoda" does for the sport as a whole when he is "allowed" (LOL) to move on...well I ask what it does for the sport as a whole when a team like Dakoda's that fields dozens of race cars (and would continue to in some way shape or form regardless of where the current drivers end up) is constantly being berrated by the very people who call themselves "fans" of this PART of the sport? Hmmmm...

And furthermore, on that note...when criticising the owners who take on foreign drivers (for the money, naturally), remember this: Those drivers have an allegiance of FANS that encompass ENTIRE COUNTRIES. Those fans rally behind them, buy their merchandise and take GREAT PRIDE in "their guy's" appearance on the national stage....no matter WHAT got them in the seat.

Too bad we can't say the same about our teeny-tiny sub-division speck of real estate on the racing map...yet we tend to hold ourselves in THE HIGHEST regard.

Lauren

[dirtyd6305]

When did someone's own personal opinion become confused with jealousy?