No. I just prefer no to play your games. There are two people in your world. Those that agree with you, or those that are off-topic, attacking you personally, dim-whitted, and now apparently clueless.

P.S. How did your cars do this weekend?

This thread was started with 15 “Solutions for the Betterment of Midget Racing.” Since I believe these public forums are intended to be a medium of open discussion, I would like to offer some thoughts on these proposed “solutions.” Some may believe my thoughts have merit, and some may think I’m “off topic“. Either way, the world will continue to turn.
First, I too would like to see something done to contain the cost of midget racing. I do not see the practicality of Indy-car costs and Midget purses. However, a knee jerk reaction when writing rules will never work. Rules must be enforceable. They also must not backfire. If I remember correctly, at the time the “big box” sanctioning body increased the cubic inch displacement limits for the Fontana and the Esslinger midget engines, they both cost considerably less than the Pink Ford, which was winning most of the high profile races at the time. The intent was to make the cheaper engines competitive, not dominant. As soon as the displacement rules were changed, both manufacturers debuted new engines. The Esslinger started winning consistently. The Fontana made great gains. What was the result of all this? The “cheaper” engines are no longer “cheap”, and some owners stopped complaining about the Pink Ford and started complaining about the Esslinger.

Solution #1. Enforce the current rule book…
Yes, keeping the competitors honest is the right thing to do. But, this needs to be done in moderation. To disassemble a race engine in the dirt and dust filled environment of a race track pit area is unacceptable. Using the “P&G” pump to measure cubic inch displacement is marginally acceptable, but dirt can still find it’s way into the engine while the valves are being disabled. I would also be willing to bet that some of the car owners who constantly cry “Check that guy’s engine!” would be the first to cry “Foul!!!” when the race officials came calling to check his or her engine.

#2 Eliminate the tire monopoly.
Sounds good in theory. But be careful what you wish for. I remember the day when there was no tire rule (other than size.) The Firestone sports car “Rain Tire” won many races, Goodyear joined in and started making several compounds of midget tires, M&H Racemaster made several compounds of midget tires, McCreary (now American Racer) made midget tires, and then along came Hoosier. What would the car owners’ tire bill look like if all these companies re-started the tire war. What if they all made a competitive tire, but each brand had a tire that was better suited to different track conditions? In order to win, car owners would have to carry tires from each manufacturer in their trailers. The “Haves” would own every brand and compound of tire, not to mention the wheels to go with them. The “Have Nots” would soon start screaming for a tire rule.

#3. Limit the number of tires that can be used in one evening of racing.
Not a bad idea in theory. In order to enforce this rule, all you have to do is stamp the tires, right? What if a “wealthy” car owner brings more than one car to the track. He has his primary driver (or favorite son) in one car and puts a “patsy” in his second car, just to get the tire(s) stamped after qualifying. He knows the second car won‘t make the show, but that‘s ok, the tire(s) got stamped and will be used for the feature on the primary car. How many officials (watching 100% of the time) will it take to prevent this from happening?
Also, what happens when everyone shows up at a tire killer race track. The promoters did not prepare the track and tires are blowing left and right. The officials change the rules in the middle of the feature, and allow a tire change. (Remember Belleville a few years ago?) How many will scream bloody murder? How many will scream if the officials do not allow a tire change and the driver running 15th wins because his tires lasted to the end?

#5. Eliminate pit pass and entry fees for owners/drivers.
Pit passes pay for the insurance. Yes, at a profit for the promoters. Promoters are not in business to be a non-profit organization. They are not going to lose this source of revenue. They would simply pass these fees on to the crew members.
“Auto racing is the only venue where the entertainers pay a fee to perform.” Entertainers such as singers, comedians, etc. are not engaging in a hazardous activity. Concert promoters have no need for extra insurance coverage outside of their normal liability insurance.

#6. Pay a minimum towing fee for those traveling long distances to race.
Good idea, but where will this money come from?

#8. Consider adopting the new Ecotech midget engine for $10,000.
As a spec engine? And trade a tire monopoly for an engine monopoly? Not for me, thank you.

#9. Ban cockpit adjustable shocks.
I can’t argue too much against this. Banning cockpit adjustable shocks would be a somewhat harmless change, but the savings would be minimal.

#10. Ban titanium and carbon fiber parts.
Again I can’t argue against this. Just be sure to word the rule so it could be enforced. It has been said that a magnet will not stick to titanium. A magnet will not stick to aluminum or most stainless steels either.

#11. Develop a sensible weight rule that includes the driver.
I can’t argue against this either. However, for this rule to help contain costs, there would have to be a minimum weight rule for the car without the driver, and without ballast. What is ballast and what isn’t? How many batteries will fit in a midget? Eliminating the high cost materials would make this rule less necessary.

#12. Separate pavement and dirt championships.
There is a lot of room for debate on this one. Speaking only for myself, I like to see a champion, especially a national champion, demonstrate his or her prowess on both dirt and pavement. Personally, I would rather find a way to eliminate the need for a pavement/dirt dedicated car without going to a spec chassis. Easier said than done. How do you un-ring a bell, anyway? Any ideas?

#13. Incorporate the use of self starters.
Which will add considerable cost to the car owner. The cars would also need a clutch and flywheel, which could withstand the rigors of midget racing, and still fit in the existing chassis. Call me old fashioned, but for me part of the allure of midget and sprint car racing is the absence of starters.

#15. Stay off the mile and half mile tracks.
This would help save money for some car owners, but many racers like high speed tracks and the prestige that goes with them. Midgets running on half mile and mile tracks is not new. Car owners and drivers who dislike the big tracks can choose stay home, without affecting those who do like them.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark Ray
(only Mark Ray...please do not associate my views with anyone else)

Don, watched usac pump the fontana of chuck gurney jr. at the night before the500 this year. just answering your question.
Posted via Mobile Device

Thanks for the info!!!

---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 AM ----------

Here are some of my comments on recent posts:

1. Stamping tires. If a team is running multiple cars, simply double stamp the tires on the second car or stamp them with an alternative mark.

2. Tire monopoly. There are tires currently available at about half the price that the monopoly tire company is charging. Competition is always good for the consumer also. You can always find gas cheaper, for example, where there are multiple gas stations.

3. Dust usually is not a problem when the races are over unless you are at Kokomo or Gas City. If the engine is going to be checked, roll it into the trailer out of the elements.

4. I've yet to read a post (or for that matter any source) by a promoter on this message board in reply to charging drivers and owners for pitpasses and entry fees and how that fee fits into the overall promoter budget. I don't think I have to pay for a pit pass to be insured. But if so, I'll gladly pay the promoter $1 and sign the waiver. BTW, a promoter would collect about $1000 from 20 drivers and owners. At $20 admission, he would only need to put 50 more people in his stands to make up the difference.

5. There is something drastically wrong with the promoter mindset when the water truck guy, track maintenance guys leave the track at the end of the evening with more payout cash in their pocket than the owners/drivers. Case in point: The Gundakers at Tri-City Gold Nationals last Fall paying the owners $30 for the evening and that was after the owners/drivers paid an expensive pit pass fee/entry fee. And I will bet that the water truck guy/ maintenance personnel did not pay to park/buy a pit pass or pay an entry fee. For lack of owner/driver representation ( called a UNION ), the ******* continues and by keeping quiet about it, owners/drivers are endorsing it.

6. Cockpit adjustable shocks. Sorry to ruin everybody's day on this, but adjustable shocks are EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE. AND EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE TO REPAIR.

7. Weight rule. The Strouds of St. Louis have written many times on the definitive way this can be accomplished with car/driver weight combined.

8. As much as I love the push trucks for nostalgic reasons, for today's contemporary crowd and to eliminate promoter expense, starters need to be looked at for future development and implementation. Ask a promoter if they would like to eliminate the push trucks. I already know the answer.

9. Half mile and miles. Fans on this message board are constantly concerned about car counts. They want to see large fields of cars show up at tracks. Sorry to ruin your day again, but don't look for more than 17 big box teams to show up September 12 at the Terre Haute half mile.

I have enjoyed reading this topic so far, even with all it's ups and downs. Don even inspired me to go back to midgetmadness and try to find one of the old weight rule discussion topics i wrote about a few years back. I got what i thought of as a typical message board response, some well thought out, some not, some serious, some funny, but i guess that is what message boards are all about. The bottom line is it got other people thinking and discussing something i believed in. That is what i really enjoy about Don's topics, whether you argee or not, they make you think about the issues facing in sport we all love.

For those who are interested here is the the link to one of the old weight rule topics and it's responses. When i get some more time i'll see if I can find any others.

http://www.midgetmadness.com/forums/...wtopic=169&hl=

Basically to simplify things and put it in anexample that IOW member can relate to, it says that it would be a shame to see Shane Cottle disqualified for winning a midget race in a car that weighed 895, and the win given to second place driver Chad Boat in a car that that weighted 901. Especially when it is one of the easiest issues to fix.

Steve Stroud

Driver plus car weight rule hypothetical situation:

Turkey Night Grand Prix. Championship on the line. A driver is in the hunt for the championship, weighs 140 pounds, his car is scratched right before the feature. His buddy says "take my car and go get the championship." His buddy weighs 180 pounds. Feature is ready to be pushed off. No time to add weight to the car. So what happens? What do you do about that 40 pounds? Are you SOL?

Mark,

Just to be clear - I for one have never advocated a one-design, spec engine for the National Midgets and I agree with your above comment. Honestly, I really don't care WHAT goes on at the "National" level - to me, that whole thing is a huge mess that took years to get this goofed up and will take years to fix, if ever. As I see it, what is starting to happen in Midget Racing is the same thing we've seen happen in sprint Cars. We are starting to see a defined, high-end "National" type of car evolve, one that most average guys can't afford but that well funded teams will run in high profile events. I don't LIKE it, and if I had my way it would not BE like this, but at this point I think anybody who denies that this is happening is kind of sticking their head in the sand.

So OK, we have the high profile National series - USAC, and maybe one or two others. Not unlike the 410 world. But now, we have a chance for the "rest of us" to go race at our local track on Saturday night, and not feel the need to keep up financially with Tony and Kasey. We have the opportunity to develop the Midget equivalent of a 360. Still a real race car, and on the average short track most people couldn't tell 'em apart, but a whole lot easier to buy, and to keep running.

I guess what I'm saying here is that continueing to try and find ways to make the National division "All things for all people" is a lot like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Just take a look at the regional clubs around the country who are struggling to keep up with the current "National" formula - you can easily see it's not working.

Just MY .02...

Keith

Greg, that i bit of a tough one, it would be a pretty rare situation, but it could happen. with any rule there can be up and downsides. For that specific case my first thought would be add fuel. Methanol weighs about 7 lbs. per gallon, so an extra 6 gallons over what you need will make you legal. Now you could say what if it was a similar situation at the Hut Hundred, and the tanks already full. Well, that is a tough one also. Like i said with any rule, there are going to be some situations where it may create a problem, but overall i would think it would improve competition.

By the way, i am not sure if the idea is included in topic i posted the link to or not, i've written about this a few times over the years, but at one time i wrote up a proposition to the MARA board before a meeting about going to an "either or" rule. Basically any 900 lb car would be legal without the driver, or a car/driver combination of about 1080 would also be legal. For my hypothetical IOW example this would probably let Cottle keep his win, as well as let Boat still run his 900 lbs car. The idea was a little bit of compromise of the exact spirit of the rule, to even up competition, but eliminated the problems of what happens when an outsider come to race with the club, or a car owner switches drivers etc. For instance i had 4 drivers in my car last year, Davey Ray, Kevin Olson, Tim Siner and Steve Knepper. There is quite weight difference with those guys, but my 900 lbs. car would always be legal under that type of rule. If i came back to driving full time and chose to, i could build a car that weighs in at 850 to help take away some of the disadvantage i have versus the lighter guys.

(by the way i hope Shane and Chad don't mind be used as an example, They just happened to be two of the top guys right now that popped into my head, LOL)

It is beginning to look like someone is listening, instead of shouting. IMHO, if you want to return midgets, to the heyday of even 20 years ago, ya gotta forget all about the fancy haulers, and racks of tires, and wheels, spare engines and that kind of stuff, you need to just sit down, and talk it over, with the guys that would like to be involved, I know to some, an engine that costs 10K sounds cheap, but to others, they just roll over and go back to sleep. I feel like, that to put a midget in the hands of a lot of folks that would like to race them, you need to sit down, and look at what engines are available in the salvage yards, and ones that most guys can build themselves, and let that be the beginning, most folks that are serious, can "afford" a good chassis, it's the engine that becomes a BIG issue, but if it were something he could build himself, and a friend or 2, maybe he would jump on that. I'm sure if you put the mechanic, back in the picture, things would get started. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I know, if I had to buy a spec engine, and have it baby sat by anyone but myself, I wouldn't even consider it, same with tires, cost cutting to me, begins when you and a buddy or 2, can do everything yourself, in your own garage, with tools you already have, there may be a few things to farm out, but, it wouldn't be much, nice paint jobs, and awesome sounding motors, make a nice picture, on a 1/4 mile race track. Bob

Don, you want to leave with more money than the people that work at the track but the fact is, we're racers. We rarely make any money unless we win, and even sometimes when you do you still lose money. That is an ugly fact about racing and that's the way its always been. If we could make a bunch of money don't you think more people would do it?