By having just the shoulder supports on the seats makes a big difference in how far you stretch in the car when flipping or landing side to side. I don't care how tight the belts are, the body will move side to side if not properly supported.

If you think of your body as a lever and then you support the lever at the half way point(Ribs), but not at the top, then there is a natural tendency for your body to flex and stretch from the rib support up. If you then support the shoulder area, then your upper body cannot flex and stretch outward. Shoulder supports make a huge difference in how the body reacts in a crash.

The cowbell effect is one that I have heard guys complain about, but I've seen it fixed by both cutting it back(thinning the padding) and adding padding.

As far as comparing ones self to Steve Kinser; All I can say to that is that is like comparing Toy Poodles to Pit Bull's. The man is extremely strong and has the neck of a horse. There a very few people racing today that have his build and you cannot compare an 18 year old or anyone for that matter to Steve. What works for him cannot be the gauge that everyone judges themselves off of.

Thank you LeadersEdge, exactly what I have been trying to say all along. Very well said.

Don't misunderstand me. I think the Hans,Padding,Nets and Dual Head Rest seats are still good ideas. I'm just pointing out the advantage of having shoulder supports.

I know tracks are leary of "certifying safety," which I understand with the legalities involved, but what about these ideas?

1. make safety inspections optional, but you can't score track points until you submit your car and it passes safety tech.

2. same as above, but instead of track points, limit the prize money for team that do not submit to and pass safety tech.

3. racers love competition, maybe get someone to sponsor a "safest car" award? That might be tough to judge though.

Now, what would be the criteria of passing safety tech? That's where I'd let experts figure that out. I'd start with proper headroom above the cage, proper netting or supports to keep the head safe, proper cage padding, etc. Like I said, these are all just ideas...

I remember a NAMARS midget show that a driver's head was at least an inch out of the top of the cage...and I know there's been others that are darn close. I'm not around sprint and midgets as much as I used to, I hope that has cleared up a bit.

BTW, there's some good ideas here...I like the one about the foam on the cage. I'm not sure if it's practical, but nice thinking.

Monday Steve Thomas of Bell Helmets will be our guest at Kelly's Pub to start our first of safety talk on Racin' with D.O.

Show starts at 7:00 pm and can be heard on www.racefanradio.com

:dologob:

Re: Safety Thread

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motormasher
I am not for "full" containment seats because I have heard too many drivers that have them say they just beat your head side to side on rough tracks and in a crash its going to do the same thing. I don't like the cage nets either for the same reason and because they block your vision and make it harder to get out of the car in a crash. JUST MY OPINION.

I'm bitin my tongue here...someone else what to take this one???




LOL, would do no good! It is unfortunate there is still some dated thinking out there. When you know the facts and how the "good stuff" works, there is hope. For some, their minds were made up before the conversation started.

Come join me some evening after a breathing tube is inserted into a drivers throat and you can take turns with me squeezing the bag breathing for them while we take an ambulance or helicopter ride to the hospital and then you talk to their family. I have... would like to avoid doing it again.

I havent read any of the previous info there are just too many pages already sry if i say something thats already been covered. This is a topic i feel very strongly about and wanted to post ASAP.

Most sprint car head and neck injuries could be lessened if every non wing car had a +2 inch cage height. While on top of this you add a nascar type quick release window net.

When the tracks are wet the cages sink in the track, having a net on there would reduce this in my opinion, as well as slow down another car or debrie from entering into the cockpit. (which i have brought to usacs attention) typical to any other suggestion they are going to... "look into that, seems like a good idea".

I run a 2 inch taller car but when you add belt stretch to the equation with a 6ft tall driver you are still going to have contact with the dirt. combine this with that hans device we are REQUIRED to wear. Which keeps the head more erect what happens? Spinal compression. Along with a full containment seat that wont let your head move more than 1/2 inch right, 2-3 inches left and with a hans set CORRECTLY (which 9 out of 10 guys in usac dont do because it restricts vision) you can only move 1-2 inches forward.

So take a flat hit on top of your cage on the dirt, your belts stretch 2 inches average, yet your head cant move in any direction enough to soften the blow of your helmet on the dirt and youve got spinal problems.

The HANS device has its purpose and is very very good in those areas of racing, im not trying to give it a bad rap. Head on to 45 degree angle hits. Like drag racing, NASCAR, and i believe they are good for pavement racing in USAC, but as far as dirt goes its not a problem fixer in my opinion. I can recover from wiplash alot faster than the injuries the HANS can possibly cause. The violent impacts we take severely affects the collar bones, Tony Jones is a prime example, after a tumble he broke his collar bone and the doctor said he had never seen healthier bone structure and it was a clean break at the position of his hans. The doctor then said that the device was beyond reasonable doubt the reason for the break. The thing i dont quite understand is all the neck/back/collar bone injuries the season before all drivers were wearing a hans. The next year its MANDATORY or some strap systems that i also tried and was pointless i could move just as far with it on as if it werent. Yes i read the directions when i used them as well on how they should be set. But belts and tethers also stretch.

The head clearance deal is a very good rule but i dont ever see it being pursued for the simple fact of tall drivers even with a 2 inch raised halo i didnt pass their inspection. The torque tube still hits my seat so i am as low as i can get. The taller you make these cars the less structuraly entegrity they have i believe too.

So bottom line i hope someone CAN come up with a solution but at the moment i dont see much changing. Budgets are tight as ever so convincing everyone to discard their frames will be a major issue, thats why after the first race that tool usac used got put in the dumpster.

Another thing i have noticed is the seemingly decreased quality in chromoly tubing, maybe im off base here but i have never seen more cars breaking in critical places than the past couple seasons. This isnt due to the manufacturer OR the sales companies its just what they get from the source.

These are my opinions as a driver only, so take them for what they are worth. Give me back my neck brace and standard belt system, it is the drivers choice in his own safety no one else PERIOD.

-Daron Clayton

Thank You Very Much Daren!!!:respect:

What you did for that young boy here in Princeton who's father was killed was totally AWESOME!:thumb

Daron,
Your right, the head clearance rule is a good place to start.

I also wanted to pass on some info to you that might help you and others, when you do use the Hans (I have been involved with testing and manufacture of this device since 2000, so this is technical info, and is not coming from the sales side of the biz)

Your tethers do not need to be shortened to hold your head close to the back of the unit. It will do what it's required to do, when needed, with a 6" length measured from the centerline of the locked position on the clip-to the interiour surface of the hans(closest to the helmet). A simple way to check and set this is with a 6" steel rule. (Stagger tape works to, it's just tougher to hold everything straight for the measurement) If you like, you can go as short as 5", but any shorter is not recommended.
At these lengths, you can bend you neck forward to touch you chin on your chest, and that is perfectly OK. The device will do it's job if required with those lengths.
That would allow you to "tuck forward" more than you could ever do using a foam horse collar.

On the collar bone issue. That's a tough call. Guys have had collarbones broken in flips by the belts alone, long before the Hans was around, and yes it does happen sometimes with a Hans as well. It's a case now that it becomes "the cause" because it is there to blame. I did not see Tony's deal, but I heard it was pretty big.

I've talked to and wittnessed a few guys this year on dirt, that took some pretty big end-o's with the front of the car pounding the track hard, from 10-15' in the air and destroying the chassis. They all said they felt the hans grab and keep them out of the wheel and front screen.
You are correct that in barrel rolls it or any other SFI head restraint will not have the same effect as a frontal or 45 deg impact. That is when the full containment seat with propper side and shoulder supports comes into play.

It is your choice (at some events) as you say, and I am not going to push anything. I just want to be sure that when you are required, you have your device set in a way that A: Your comfortable. B: You have the propper tether mobilty so you can tuck if required, and don't feel that restriction you mentioned. I aslo thought it would be good info for others to know if they ever had concerns about the movement or the length of the tethers.

The new sliding tether set up helps with that as well, and it can be fitted to any hans if one chooses.

Your a Hell of a Driver Daron, and as I spend more and more time at the tracks, I consider many of you drivers my friends and I'm working to build that trust so if any of you have questions about the Hans, Belts, Seats, Lids etc...you can flag me down at anytime to get another set of eyes to look at something.

Hopefully we'll see you at Kokomo Tonight.

Ken Joyce,
KRJ Race Products
Brownsburg, IN

Thanks guys a lot of my questions have been answered or at least addressed. I still think padding is a good idea no matter how much clearance you have or how well the seat containes you. Video shows much more than the two or three inches of head movement in many different instances. The belts stretching, forces, sudden changes of direction and all are really much to be considered, These cars act as a whip on your neck.

One more question, Would taking the seat and forming it to where your in a slightly laid back possition help? In both clearance issues and sitting deeper in the seat. Take the the whole seat and slightly tilt it back. Should lower the driver a couple inches in the car. I know the whole cockpit idea is to sit upright but I just wonder if a slight redesign might help?

Just ideas and certainly its entirely possible it is worse than better and should be tested before implementing but I've seen the concept in lots of other aplications.

Chuck