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Bill Miller Photo Montpelier Motor Speedway Midget Series Returns For Saturday, August 2 Event The Montpelier Motor Speedway Midget Series will make it third stop of the season at the Montpelier Motor Speedway this Saturday night, August 2nd. The series' schedule and competition will heat up for the remainder of the season with 6 different events scheduled through early October (August 2, August 30, September 13, September 20, September 27, and October 11) heading towards the culmination of a series champion. The Leaders Edge of Indianapolis is the presenting title sponsor for the Midget series. The Montpelier Motor Speedway was able to complete the July 26th event even with major storms surrounding the speedway for the entire evening. The speedway staff was able to get the entire 5 division program completed on a smooth and hammer down track by 10:00 even with a rain delay during the UMP Modified feature. Monrovia, Indiana's Justin Peck picked up his first career dirt Midget win bouncing back from a Midget week flip that had kept him sidelined. Peck rocketed from the 2nd row to grab the lead leading Tate Martz (#2 Steele),Chett Gehrke (#10 Moore), Travis Berryhill (#16 Sandy), and Cole Custer (#00 Custer) to the finish line. Heat race winners were Peck and Berryhill. Alex Watson was the Sportsman Bonus award winner. Midget and MTQRL Montpelier Midget winner, Tate Martz, will enter the weekend as the points leader virtue of back to back 2nd place finishes. The series' schedule and competition will heat up for the remainder of the season with 6 different events scheduled through early October (August 2, August 30, September 13, September 20, September 27, and October 11) heading towards the culmination of a series champion. The Leaders Edge of Indianapolis is the presenting title sponsor for the Midget series. The event will feature the Montpelier’s Midget Series which features full size Midgets and power plants and allows a platform for other engines including Focus, Ecotech, and Motorcycle powered entries to compete utilizing an unlimited weight break and additional tire width. The Montpelier Motor Speedway Midget Series features an open tire brand and compound rule. Watson Racing after winning the Bonus the previous week is sponsoring a $100 cash award for the highest finisher powered by Focus, Ecotech, or Motorcycle power plants. The Sportsman winner of this award on August 2nd will be guaranteed to make a minimum of $200/$250(with 21 Midgets). General Admission will be a great value for fans at only $12 with Kids (12 and Under) - FREE! Full Series Information and Payout can be found on our website at: www.MontpelierMotorSpeedway.com Top 10 Points 1. 2 Tate Martz 2. 41 Alex Watson 3. 5 Gary Gipson -*R 4. 97 Jim Jones *R 5. 6RR Lynsey Liguori 6. 5X Justin Peck 7. 10 Chett Gehrke 8. 10 Nick Lucas 9. 16 Travis Berryhill 10. 52 Isaac Chapple Rookie of the Year Award Leaders 1. Gary Gipson 2. Jim Jones 3. Austin Nemire 4. Tyler Kendall 2014 Series Winners April 26 - Lynsey Liguori July 26 - Justin Peck Overall Series Winners 85 Shane Hollingsworth - 4 Wins 6RR Lynsey Liguori - 2 Wins 21 Nick Speidel - 1 Win 7 Critter Malone - 1 Win 10 Brandon Matus - 1 Win 17 Michael Koontz - 1 Win 3 Darren Hagen - 1 Win 10 Billy Wease - 1 Win 52 Isaac Chapple - 1 Win 9P Parker Price-MIller - 1 Win 2 Tate Martz - 1 Win 17E Blake Edwards - 1 Win 5X Justin Peck - 1 Win Upcoming Midget Dates August 2 August 30 September 13 September 20 September 27 October 11 Upcoming Sprint Car Dates September 6th - BOSS Non Wing Sprints Upcoming MTQRL TQ Midget Dates August 9 August 16 September 13 ( with MMS Midget Series) Times Gates Open - 3:00 PM Hot Laps – 5:00 PM Racing - 6:30 PM Admission General Admission - $12 Kids (12 and Under) – Free Pit Pass - $25 Location East Central Indiana Montpelier Motor Speedway 700 South Jefferson Montpelier, Indiana 47359 I69 Exit 264 Web & Media Official Website: www.MontpelierMotorSpeedway.com Facebook – “Home of the Montpelier Motor Speedway: www.facebook.com/MontpelierMotorSpeedway Twitter - www.twitter.com/MontpelierTrack |
We have received some questions with the Watson Racing Sportsman Bonus. The highest finishing entry powered by Focus, Echotech, or motorcycle power will receive their full normal payout plus an additional $100 cash. The series pays $100/$150 (w/ 21 entries) to just start the feature. This should produce a race within race. Thanks to Watson racing for sponsoring this award.
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The Sportsman Award was originally intended as a one-time deal to 1) provide a financial incentive for Focus, Ecotec and Motorcycle based racers to participate, and 2) provide some publicity for those racers. Since Alex was the top sportsman last week in the Wally Sexton #41 Focus after a great battle with Johnny Heydenreich and Tyler Kendall, we decided to go 'double or nothing' and roll it over to this Sat, along with another $50 for a total of $100 to this week's top sportsman driver. Hopefully this will add some excitement for the fans as well - they may not realize these guys have a 150 horsepower disadvantage over the full midgets, but are still racing hard for bragging rights among their group. Thanks to Harold and his crew for working with me on this - I know there are Focus and Mini's who want to run non-wing, lets show our support to Montpelier this weekend, and somebody will take home $200+ and have a great night at the races.
Greg Watson |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Harold
I have watched your series since the first organizational meeting held in Indy several years ago. We even got the chance to race our first and last Midget race in your first event. We have also raced several time with the MMSA when they traveled up there to race. You might call us Midget racers wana-be's. Let me throw out a what if now. I have gone over your rules a dozen times or so looking for that "Smokey" well you didn't say we couldn't rule about engine design.>>> The cost of a 10year old purpose built midget motor let alone the upkeep of one of these motors is out of our price range. Last year I was beginning to thinking that Mini Sprint motors were also getting out of price range. The National Groups have gone out of their way to design a rule package to keep the purpose built Midget $25,000.00 + Motor in place by designing their rules to OutLaw the Modern Stock engine Displacement motors with 4 valve heads from competing in their race cars. Auto makers have not used 2000cc 4 valve head motors in Modern performance cars. They have however designed several V6 motors in the 3000cc-3500cc displacement range that are capable of developing some serious Horsepower with very little work and still keep the stock head and block. I have located one of these motors in a local Junk Yard for $400.00. It has 200,000 + miles on the odometer. I could buy this motor install aftermarket rods and pistons new lighter valves and springs, and with the addition of a good fuel injection system and maybe dry sump oiling, could build a 400 Horsepower Motor that would fit right in a Midget Chassis. The cost with some help on the Motor work would be much less than the cost of a Honda Spec engine. The head design on these motors is much better than the Echo tec or Focus, being much closer in design to the late model motor cycle engine in design, the crankshaft and crank case were designed for 200,000+ miles. Because of the engines design freshen up might stretch out to several years or more. There is no way that USAC or for that matter Poweri would allow such a motor to race with them because of alliances with the major engine builders and manufacture's. My question to you would be.. If a guy was to show up with such a motor would it be considered legal and would you allow it to race in your group? Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Dad I'm interested to know as well, being a former visteon engineer and now a auto repair business owner I always look or think about such loophole motors. How about even one of the synergy motors, would one of those be allowed, They've always intrigued me.
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Let's be honest dad.... Would you show up? You always talk about the price of gas, not being close enough to you, etc... Don't mean to start anything just asking because you have been to 1 race in the 2-1/2 years
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Overnight Rains and Forecast Has Cancelled August 2nd Racing Program at the Montpelier Motor Speedway.
The Montpelier Motor Speedway regrets to announce several rounds of storms throughout the night has cancelled racing for August 2nd. The rains coupled with a track that was prepped for racing throughout the week has left the crew unable to get track equipment onto the surface until at least midday. Also, the forecast and radar projections unfortunately for the remainder of the afternoon and evening does not show a window to complete the program.. |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Originally Posted by BrianBSU23: Then again, I guess I'm always Jonesin'...:) |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Originally Posted by Midget18: Midget Best I can remember we outrun you that night you are speaking of and then blew the motor up right at the checkered flag? ;) It is about a 300 mile trip for us to drive up there. Do you all travel that far to race? Gas and Money does seem to be a problem with us and many other Americans at this point in time. I might and might not show up to race. We had planed to drive up to Montpelier tonight to race with AJ and You guys but guess mother nature put an end to that deal. I really wasn't thinking about us only. There are a ton of racers that would love to race Midgets. If someone could come up with stock block head program for a Midget that would be less expensive than a purpose built Midget motor and be cheaper to maintain it MIGHT JUST ENCOURAGE A FEW MORE MIDGET RACERS TO BUILD RACE CARS>> that is the purpose of my little discussion. You guys with the older purpose built Midget motor know the cost of racing on the cheap and there is no way you could expect to run with a newer motor. These little V6's have the potential to out run those old archaic designs. Harold with his rule package as it is now seems to be encouraging experimentation with motor packages and if that is the case >>>who knows we might ride up there to race with youall. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Originally Posted by jjones752: |
Yep we do travel that far to race... We travel to PA and eastern Ohio...
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Gidget
Ya but you guys are like them "Gipsy Outlaw" racer types, always chasing them big purse and big name races. We are just poor underfunded armatures scraping our nickles together to get to a race. If we could get a few people to build the type of car I am thinking about, there just might just be a few tracks closer to home for us to race at. Right now with your Midget you are in pretty exclusive company. Midgets for the Masses is what I am looking for, and I think Harold, with his rule package might be on the right path for such a class. Honest Dad himself:6::6: PS did you guys race at Gas City last night? |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Dad,
There is currently no engine limit size or rules to prevent this engine, and it would be legal. We are under the stance as long as the car looks like a traditional Midget from top to bottom along with drives, races, and performs like a traditional Midget should, it would be legal (Not to fast to obsolete the current Midget engine platforms nor to slow to be a safety issue) Our platform is built upon the foundation to be able to compete in a Midget as economically as possible and give racers the opportunity to get laps and seat time. We also realize there is no such thing as a cheap way to go racing, but we are doing our best to keep costs down (such as turning away product sponsorship money they necessitate a specific brand or part). The Liguori's and many others have really supported us through this learning curve with the Midgets, and we appreciate everyone's support fan and teamwise. We are in this for the long haul and will do whatever we can to provide great Midget racing for many more years. |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Brian
Thanks for the response. We all know that racing is expensive. We also know that racing Midgets is even more expensive than any other form of open wheel dirt track racing. You guys have stuck your neck out to help Midget racing in your area and I hope maybe all around the USA. Like I told Lindsey we are armature racers. The major Midget sanctioning bodies for some reason or another have stuck their heads in some sort of hole and have failed to recognize that they do have a problem in the Midget Class. Even PowerI has followed suit with it's older brother to more or less rule out the average racer. Automobile engine design has made great strides in the last 50 or so years since the"Pinto" Esslinger or "Chevy II" motor was designed. To keep up with the stress put on these motors engine builders have resulted into making patches in the form of special Heavy Duty Cylinder heads and blocks. In that time period The auto makers have been designing better and better engine with much better machine work and more robust design in cast aluminum. To keep everybody on the same page I am Looking at the engine from a Lincoln LS from about 2000-2009. This engine was designed with the help from Cosworth Engines, Porsche, and Yamaha. In it's stock state sitting in the automobile it has been rated at close to 300 horsepower. With the help from a very modest tune, 400 horsepower should be no problem at all to achieve. Racing with 10 year old Midget motors it might or might not have an advantage. The biggest advantage would be initial cost and the cost of maintenance over the older motors. Buying a Midget motor is the small portion of Midget racing sending the motor back every 10-12 races for the "Freshen Up" is what gets expensive. I think with the money we saved by not racing this week I will go out and buy one of these little motors and start working on finding an engine builder to help in its development. Maybe next year we can join your program. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
First off my name is Don O’Keefe Jr. I say this 1st because before I go into any thoughts, ideas, or whatever, I’m not hiding behind a screen name.
Many thanks to Harold, Brian, and all the folks at Montpelier Motor Speedway that have put forth the effort and dedication to make this midget class happen, let alone the great weekly shows thru the season. You have made every effort to interact, notify, and include those who wish to make midget racing happen at Montpelier. Your rules are inclusive, not exclusive. Dam what a concept, open tire, upright mini sprints, national midgets, Volkswagen, Yamaha, Fontana, Chevy, tall ,short, young, old (like me), male, female, bring your dam car and run. I sit week in and week out looking at some of these posts and wonder why the hell someone can’t just say Thank You for giving us a place to race when we are able too. Sadly these days it’s easier to jump on the old message board and tell you that you can make everything better if you do this for me because I can’t afford it or for the betterment of the sport you need to do this because everyone else has their head up their rears. I mean honestly Dad have you forgotten about the Ford Focus Fiasco? The Eco Tec Experiment? The supposed Honda (actually there were some guys on the west coast that had a Honda that kicked some butt) motor? Montpelier as of now says bring it, run it, and we’ll go from there. I have 2 midgets we run when we can, one has a 20 year old Fontana in it, and the other has a 14 year old Esslinger. They both run well enough for this 57 year old and the few other drivers that have been behind the wheel. Buy that motor you’re looking at, build it run it and enjoy the process, be a leader and show us how it’s done. Any form of open wheel racing these days is expensive period! But if you want to try this, Montpelier is the perfect place for you to go. Last week I wasn’t able to run due to issues that I had. Maybe I should have gotten on IOW and suggested you cancel the show because I couldn’t attend. But in all honesty I was happy that 14 cars (plus all the other classes) were able to run despite the lousy weather. I was looking forward to being there tonight, but since Mother Nature once again stepped in. I will say Thank You to all at Montpelier. Don O’Keefe Jr. Midgets #0k, 8ok |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Don
My first engine of choice would have been a 410 sprint motor but I felt that might have been pushing the envelop a tad. I by nature am a tinker, I have an aversion to doing things the way everybody else does. The guys up at Montpelier are also thinking outside the box, to me that is a good thing. More than likely this thing will fall on it's face but you never know until you try. It is taking a lot of talking to get some support on this thing and the last thing I want to do is pee off a bunch of people, maybe I might encourage a few more brave soles t o try something different. Racing has ceased to be experimental and racers have settled into a rut, nobody wants to try anything, they just wait until so and so makes his new engine and go out and spend their last dollar on the thing in order to beat their less financially endowed opponents. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Don,
Your post and compliments are much appreciated! Dad, I've already fielded a call about a 410 in Midget. Actually, it wouldn't perform, drive, appear like a traditional Midget. We allow for a variety of powerplants, but it will never be run to that extreme. The speeds the midgets ran last week was about as fast as aMidget needs to go on a 1/4 mile. I' ve talked with Dad a bunch of times. I know he likes what we are doing. He is just promoting discussion. Our deal will hopefully never fail because we have a very supportive group of car owners behind us. I believe our two 14 car fields were both weather related (along with some hard crashes the night before). I had 22 cars confirmed for tonight until we were rained out. I think our mission initially was to provide Midget racing economically as we could (and again we know its not cheap), provide seat time for the future and even current stars, and to give Indiana Midget owners somewhere local to race. We have this nowhere near we want it, but as long as the Midgets continue to put on outstanding racing and fans are willing to put down the $12 to see it we are going to do the best we can to keep providing it for years to come and grow it everyway we can. |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Brian
I had actually intended to lay that old 410 over to the left side just like them Midget motors. Then when it was sitting still it would look just like one of them Speed Way Bikes that Scott Daloisio is always talking about, You know just the two left wheels on the ground and the right ones sticking up in the air like two outriggers. Us racers call that driving off of the left rear. :D:D We need to get Scott working on a real midget class race program for out there. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
First, I would like to echo DOK'S sentiments and thank Brian and his people for giving local racers a great place to race their Midgets. I have no doubt that this class will grow and down the road Montpelier will be running B mains. It never ceases to amaze me how many folks want to dummy down Midget Racing. Midgets are an elite form of Motorsports. It is where Tony Stewart and the boys go to play. As such, on any given night you will likely run into a team or teams that have far more funding, ect. than than you. (us). I am not a big Newt Gingrich person but I once saw a video where he started out by saying..." Complete this sentence, If you cannot afford to buy a house......." The obvious answer is Don't buy a house, right?? When I was 18, I was working 3 jobs so I could race. I had an Early Model Stock Car budget, but I wanted more so I scraped $1500.00 up and bought an old, outdated Supermodified an went racin' at San Jose Speedway. My first motor was a bored out 322 buick that blew on the main straight at Clovis. In '74, I bought a used but fresh LT-1 from Lloyd Beard and started running the NASCAR circut in central Ca. I never came close to making a Main at San Jose. Lots of B and C races (remember them??) It never once crossed my mind to try to dummy down this great class. I knew what I was getting into when I went there and was just thrilled to be racing at what was then, the fastest paved 1/3 mile in the world.Since then, far to many classes have sprouted up so everybody can get a trophy. Today, there are many lower cost classes of Midget type cars. The IRS is a great series but if ya live in Indiana ya gotta tow to get to 'em. IMHO, T.Q.'s are the best bang for the buck. There are several groups out here with decent car counts and they cost far less to run........as long as you don't crash, because then you are buying Midget parts to fix it. If I was in a position to go racing, I would would buy a Midget for somewhere between 8K and 12.5K and go race at Montpelier. It's a place where you can just race your car and not have all the ******** that U$@C offers. BTW, I am also a HUGE fan of POWRi. They also do things right. Remember, you can make a small fortune in racing, just start with a large one......
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Ken. When was the last time a 2 valve motor won the Indy 500, has a 2 valve motor won any formula I races lately. How many race organizations still depend on a 2 valve motor platform other than NASCAR and USAC?
I don't think a new motor platform would dumb down the Midget racing. Paying $40,000.00 for a 2 valve race motor seem kinda of dumb to me. The Esslinger, Fontana , MoPar and TRO are beautiful works of art. They are achieving horse power numbers out of these once 90 Horsepower stock motors that are out of this world. In doing so they have also stressed them dangerously close to becoming BOMBS. I want to start out with a 300 horsepower motor and maybe shoot for another 100 horsepower or so. If we can find this extra power it would put this motor on par with the TRO's. The only difference is I think We can do this with a stock block and cylinder head. That would do a great deal to bring the cost of owning a midget down a tad. Sure you still have tires>I can remember when they changed right rears every time the car stopped. We still got 4 or 5 dollar per gallon fuel cost to get to the races, work commitments that prevents a lot of us from traveling with the pro's. That is what makes racing expensive. We have been racing Mini sprints for years, knowing that there was no way that we could afford even a 15 year old midget. With Montpelier and their rule package I think we might start racing Midgets. But we will do it racing a 10 year old slightly tuned stock block motor. Mini Sprints have had phenomenal growth in the last 15 years or so. With a motor like I am thinking about we could do the same for Midgets. Can you envision a USAC Midget racing at a little track like Montpelier and getting beat by a local with a motor that cost 1/10 of what his motor did? Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Dad, Your heart is in the right place. Much of the discussion on Spec motors I have seen revolves on eliminating the high priced motors which I am 100% against. That would be unfair to existing teams and would likely put the final nail in our sport. It does not seem that this is your focus. I hope not. I was on the BCRA Board of Directors for a few years in the early 2K's and one thing we did was to allow our older motors (V-4, Chev 2, Pontiac, VW,ect) more cubic inches. I cannot speak for the folks at Montpellier but I would bet they would welcome any 4 cyl. effort you would come up with. Midget racing (along with T.Q.'s) has always been the home of the mad scientist and folks like that (you) are the heart and soul of our sport.There are some pifalls to this and here are a few. Are you talking an iron block? If so, that will not only add weight but will upset the balance of the car. Is there Injection available for your motor? If not, you have to either get a set cast $$$$$$ or run carbs which will hurt the H.P. You're looking to start with around 300 H.P. To even have a chance at those numbers you need compression and inches so any thoughts of stock rods and crank are gone unless you want windows. And I'm not talking XP. :5: If there is no history of this motor ever being in a Midget then you need custom Motor Plate, Pump Mounts, U-Joint, are you gonna run Dry Sump (oil pan). There is more but I think you see where this is going. Thanks to USAC once again devaluing racers equipment, there are lots of Focus Motors available but they likely have stock bottom ends and I doubt you'll ever see the numbers you are looking for with that. The ecotech is okay and at least there is history with Midgets so the bolt on stuff is available. Again, stock rods, ect and I did fail to mention the extreme Head work any stock motor needs to even have a chance to reach those numbers. Maybe the best chance is the DOHC Honda which has proven VERY competitve on the west coast. The bottom end in those motors are very stout and all bolt on parts are available. The number I heard to build a good one is around 20K but a bone stock one on alky would, I'm sure out-perform any of the previously mentioned motors. Bottom line is that no one is gonna build a Motor that will run with the top teams for 4K or anything close. I'm doubt that it could be done even for 15K but maybe if you hane enough cubes....... Right now, you can find older fontanas for around 6-8K and just bolt 'em in and race. I'll repeat what I said in my previous post. What you are trying to do is enter an arena that has many teams with huge budgets.
To quote a former engine builder, the late Don Canepa " Horsepower costs money,how fast do ya wanna go?" Keep me posted on your efforts as I understand what you are trying to do and I applaud your passion. Good luck............Ken |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Ken
Thanks for your reply and input. Guys like you and Don who have an interest in the sport help add balance to what might become a one sided soapbox speech. I have been around racing much of my life, I am 67 years old. The mind is still going pretty strong but the old body is slowing down a tad. My dad owned an automotive machine shop and used to joke about building his old race Flathead Fords out of junk that he swept off of the floor of his shop. He built or machined race engine for many of the local hot shoes like Bill Kimmel Sr., Harry Hyde, and Bill Clarry of Clary's Customotive Speed Shop here in Louisville. He was also friends with a guy named Al Davis, this guy was a genius. He was the guy that built the patterns for the first TQ quick change rear end. He actually built billet crankshafts for the old Crosley motors with nothing more than a 14" South Bend Lathe and an old Bridgeport Mill. In my Young adult hood I was fortunate enough to become friends with a guy named Ralph Potter through racing Quarter Midgets with him and his sons. He built the Kurtis Quarter Midget that was so dominant in quarter midget racing from the late 50's to the 70's. He sold the Quarter Midget operation off and went back to racing Full Midgets. One of his first midgets was a VW rear engine design that USAC definitely did not like. Suffering through the VW phase of Midget racing Ralph decided that there must be a better way to build a race engine. His next engine to develop was the little Chevy V6. He spent a great deal of time and money making this little engine competitive. The culmination of his efforts was Tony Stewart's first ever national title in the USAC National Midget Division. USAC in their wisdom decided the little V6 had too much going for it and went about making rules to take away the edge from it. Ralph kinda of lost interest in Midget racing at this point and went on to finish out his racing in the Silver Crown Cars. Seeing all of this unfold I guess is what has caused me to to have a dislike of well intended rules meant to help the racer out. Ralph financed his Midget racing with the help of 5 very successful Muffler Shops he and his son's run up in Indy. He was also my business mentor and helped me start a shop down here in Louisville. The advice he gave me on advertising was to never spend more than 10% of your gross on advertising unless you were advertising on a race car.;):D That brings me back to me and Mini Sprints. A big reason Ralph got out of racing was the cost involved in building a competitive race car. I knew that if it was hard with 5 gang-buster shops it would be impossible to do with one so so shop. When my son got old enough to start thinking about racing we tied up with a friend Bill Felker and his son Tony "AJ" racing 600cc upright Mini Sprints. That was a race car that I could afford to race and race right. The 600cc cars were the little brother to the 1200cc Mini Sprints and we were kinda of looked down on. They were powered with the little Honda FII motor, a new compact design with a much more efficient head design than motors in the past. We ventured up to Brownstown Indiana once to race with the 1200cc cars and low and behold AJ finished 5th in the feature with an engine one half the size. At about this time in the late 90's the 1200cc class was dying a slow death because of the cost of modifying these old boat anchors to be race worthy. They left a lot of room for improvement in those things and this improvement work was expensive costing $10,000.00 + to build a good race engine. Fortunate for us Mini Sprinters the Japanese chose to develop the 1000cc motorcycle engine next. In 2004 the race began between the bike makers to see who could build the fastest bike and has continued til this day. A stock off the bike 1000cc cycle motor would run circles around these older motors at 1/5 the cost. The reason these little motors were so powerful was all in head design. Your mentions of windows is quite true I have made a lot of them over the years. The advantage to the old sand cast HD midget castings are when you made a hole a good welder and a TIG could close it back up again. With the light weight permanent casting cycle motor the thickness and weight is not there so you just junk it and buy another motor. In a high performance motor we talk about another "Window". That is the window made by the opening of the intake port and the valve head. Unfortunately this window in an Focus or Echotec is not very large because the port makes almost a 90 degree turn before getting to the valves. In Quarter Midget racing back in the late 50's a guy named Carl Shoji saw this problem also in the Continental engine used in racing those cars at the time and went about curing it with a piece of steel tubing and a couple of pounds of brass welding rod, correcting the bent port problem and making what was known in the day as a Shoji side valve or side port "AA" motor. They were very very fast. The the small 4 cylinder 2000cc engines developed today were developed for fuel economy, the manufactures started depending on V6 motors for their performance cars like Mustang and Camaro and yes even the LS Lincoln and Jaguar motors are powered by a 60 degree V6 motor. These motors fall a little outside the displacement deemed acceptable by USAC and other Midget race organizations. for a 4 valve head they set the limited to 2000CC's. The little V8 Sinergy motor is 2000CC's but expensive and to be honest the heads are old school Suzuki Hybusa designs and way out of date. Auto maker build motors to meet their requirements and not those of some racing organization. It would make sense to me then that the racing groups would work their engine specs around what was currently available from the manufactures instead of working off of 50 year old specifications. The design of the modern 60 degree V6 necessitates that the intake ports be set in at more vertical angle to the valve angle making for a much bigger window for the intake port, this translates into better Volumetric Efficiency and that translate into more Horsepower for the engine. How much I don't know, but it should be better than the Esslinger and we would be doing this with much smaller and easily controlled valves, this translates into less time and money replacing very expensive valves and valve springs. Esslinger recognizing that straighter ports improve VE and makes more Horsepower have made a patch for their engines in the form of what they call the "Tall Head Design". By making the head taller they straightened out the intake ports thus making more horsepower. The problem is they still have that one enormous titanium intake valve to pass all of that intake charge through and because of this factor they are limited in the amount of improvement they can achieve without going to a larger bore piston. Our Mini Sprint motors develop 200HP per 1000cc's If we developed our V6 to this stage of tune that would be 600+ Horsepower. I am shooting for 400 or so thus this motor is way below it's potential. With tires available for midgets 600 HP just might be a little overkill and not required. I am sure there would be people that shoot for this 600 mark that is what racers do. The trick to the hole deal is make it stock block and cylinder head only, maybe allowing welding of the head to make VE a little better yet, for us tinkers. Let the block dictate how much power you can work safely. The biggest problem I see is much like Ralph's V6 Motors the powers that be>> hopefully not Brian and Harold will regulate the motor out of existence in favor of the people that pay their bills. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Pick and pull motors might work too. Turn up the fuel pressure, throw some e85 in the tank, and focus on setup and driving. Around here, an ecotec can be had for $189 with injection. Doesn't get any cheaper than that...... Just a thought open for discussion. 😁
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
My opinion (for what it's worth):
I ran with the IMRA Saturday and competed with an amazing mix of low-dollar Ecotechs, a Quad-4 and a good variety of motorcycle-powered, chain driven race cars. For the sake of argument let's call them the Blue Circuit. Over in Belleville, Kansas, USAC ran on the High Banks and featured the high-dollar, highly-stressed, outrageously expensive equipment that is an earmark of an elite league; let's call them the Red Circuit. Both approaches have their place; if you have the inclination and the money to spend you run the Red Circuit, and if you don't have the finances and the lazer focus to "run with the Big Dogs" you choose Blue as you primary color. Occasionally a Blue may want to dip his toe in some Red waters (see Johnny Murdock's Zero racers at Belleville); sometimes, a promoter catches lightning in a bottle and finds a way to come up with a handicapping system that successfully mixes Red and Blue (See Harold Hunter @ MMS). This is a rare, exotic event, like Purple Rain (apologies to the Artist Formerly Known as the Artist Formerly Known as Prince). However, in most cases, Red is Red and Blue is Blue; run whatcha brung in the Blues, but leave the innards stock; injection, plumbing and spark are free but keep the rotating assembly as from the factory. As soon as you start monkeying with the rods, crank, cam, ports, etc., etc., etc, I'm sorry boys, you're gonna have to go petition the Reds to let you in (the exception being Montpelier Purple). As soon as you open her up you're also opening Pandora's Can of Worms (mixed metaphor intentional), because somebody's going to try to find a way to outspend you. In the history of Motorsports I don't think there has ever been a clear winner in a game of "Can You Top This?". I've said my piece. Carry on... |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Jim
Huh???? Could you send be down some of that stuff, then after giving it suitable time to take effect I'll come up with a response. :) I sure appreciate you jumping in, you add another dimension to the conversation, by being one of the Montpelier Chain Gang. A stock 2004 and up gsxr 1000 will run circles around the older oil cooled rigs. That is because Suzuki built the race right into the bike. With high compression pistons, titanium valves, super port work etc. On the other hand a V6 designed to power a stock type street car is also designed to run 200,000 miles plus on regular gasoline and give no problems. With 9 to 1 pistons we are going to need a little help to get up to speed running on Methanol and without Methanol overheating is going to be a problem. I think stock cams w/o variable cam timing should suffice, however we are thinking about speeds about 2000 RPM's over the stock 7 or 7500 rev limit. The powered rods might have stress problem there also. If the red team wants to go hog wild then let them these little V6 motors in a mild tune will still be cheaper than the new replacement cost of your cycle motor, and the way newer cycle motors are being priced right now, they could be cheaper than one of them also. I don't see this motor ever racing USAC because they have a different way of looking at things. They like exotic even if exotic is a 50 year old designed motor. I always thought that the red and blue shows was both the same, just different cities on the schedule>> goes to show you>>> that "a sucker is born every minute".:5: I do appreciate your input. I was never into singers and bands that much, and I guess I am like that old "Okie" or "Hill Billy" My high of choice was "Jack Black and Coke" and i refrain from that stuff now. We in the blue camp should try to stand together. Our outlook desires and expected outcome are quite different than those of the red camp. Your and my desires are also possibly quite different I respect you for your views. In the end we are both looking for an enjoyable pastime and experience without going broke in the process. I like the tinker side Doug like the driver side. From what I heard they only had 15 cars at Bville for the show so I guess he did pretty good. Wonder why the car count was so low?? I heard it was because TRO was behind on production and a bunch of the teams was behind on their payments.;):5: The secret to the 1000cc mini sprints popularity was and is that they left the factory in an amazing state of tune. Two Hundred Horsepower per Liter is approaching Formula I in proportions of horsepower per Liter, yes and there are still people that want to throw more money into them or think that their competition is doing so. You can't rule out rich, however a Midget at 400 Horsepower is rapidly reaching the point of diminishing returns in terms of tires and usable race track, Big Bville not withstanding and a few big pavement Joints. What I see is an engine package that could obsolete both old worn out Midget motors and cycle motors alike. They should be cheaper to build even with a few special innards and the maintenance period should be like every couple of years for a freshen up. The other side of the coin is perhaps the high dollar Midget racers might decide to leave the low budget racers alone, choosing not to play with them anymore. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Dang it ! Dad, Build that motor (engine), I'm getting tired of reading these long winded (very well thought out) posts and subsequent replies, if all else fails, maybe we can revive the old Brown County, Ohio 1/4 mile and start our own" Extreme Midget " show.
or, somewhere in southern Indiana. Just a thought,but, that's a beginning. Bill May |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Sorry if I lost ya Dad; here's a little history lesson:
"Following World War 2, midget car racing exploded in the State of California, with the United Racing Association (U.R.A.) running two circuits, the ‘blue’ circuit reserved for Offenhauser powered cars, and the ‘red’ for V8-60 and motorcycle engine powered racers. The“V8-60” 60 horsepower flathead V8 introduced by the Ford Motor Company in 1937 was a more economical alternative to the larger 85 horsepower flathead V8. With its smaller size and lower cost as compared to the purpose-built Offenhauser racing engine, the production-based V8-60 engine presented a chance for many returning veterans to go midget racing." So you see, there's nothing new under the sun; we still have the "Haves" and the "Have Nots". I applaud you for wanting to try something different, but the problem is that tinkering now costs way more than it did back in the Forties and seems to breed more tinkering and more expense. I do see a lot of parallels between USAC & POWRi with the old Blue Circuit and IMRA, IRS and maybe Johnny Murdock's new BAM series with the Red Circuit, with Montpelier and Gas City as a sort of middle ground. I know I'm fighting a losing battle with my Yellow Zonker but heck, I'm just in it for the fun now anyway; when she blows I think I'll look for a scrapyard Ecotech myself, and maybe you can help me carve an adaptor to slap my modular Hilborn on the thing. |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Bill
Thanks, some of this is just me fighting off oldtimers disease, part of it is the old school teacher in me and the rest is a passion for the little cars we refer to as Mini Sprint or Midget. Times are a changing. Cycle motors in low mileage 2012 and up are drying up and prices are going up. Mini Sprinters are starting to get like other racing organizations, thinking just like our government that there is nothing that they can't fix with enough rules. Midget racing is killing it self with too many rules to try to keep the old technology in play, all the time disregarding the nose on their face that Japan, Detroit and even the Germans are developing power plants that could be very easily be made to work in a Midget at a fraction of what it is costing now. I am working on "AJ" right now and perhaps if enough bright young back yard wizards read these posts we might between all of us come up with something that works. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
I didnt think there were that many "tinkerers" these days. Been to many shops,and no lathe to be seen,and a drill press is the closest thing to a Bridgeport.No Tig welder in sight either. Most just buy parts and bolt on. Or take their cars to shops to be worked on.
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Dang it Jim
You Left coasters are all alike. I thought you was talking about the old Barnum and Bailey Circus red and blue units. Old Ed Eskidarian did pretty good against them 110 Offies in his day with that little V8 60 of his. There problem was also overheating, thus the ugly grill required to race them. Anything can be taken to extremes especially by racers. I am looking for an engine package one up on the echotec or motorcycle. There used to be an old joke about women's b00bs. It went something like this "Anything more than a mouthful is wasted" the same thing holds true for horsepower. We are racing people that know they are getting beat by horsepower, when the fact could be nothing further from the truth. Midgets belong on small 1/3 and preferably 1/4th or 1/5th mile race tracks would be better. I kind of like to explain racing and horsepower in the terms of GO Karts them being one of my first experiences in racing. A dual engine Kart is not twice as fast as a single engine Kart but the kick in the Butt sure is a whole lot stronger. The same thing holds true for bigger race cars. We could run with 1200cc cars with a 600cc car BUT the 1200cc cars sure get there faster and that is what the drivers are looking for. Keep them on small tracks and a good 1000cc car will run with a mediocre Midget. Take them to big Bville or Eldora and the Horsepower wins out all the time. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
True, horsepower isn't everything; how much do you think an Isky (or Edelbrock) V8-60 put out on a dose of nitro, or even a 110 Offy for that matter? Still put on a good show. We do OK at Montpelier too in the entertainment department, and the race this weekend at Sycamore was a barn-burner. I betcha nobody was much over 200 horses either.
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Originally Posted by Andrew S. Quinn: You ain't been to my shop!! I like to keep it all in house if I can, and if I can't. I taught AJ Felker to be the same way but as a student he is several steps ahead of the old teacher, his shop include Dyno room, Flow Bench, Serdi valve machine and Sunnen hone along with all the other breaks, shears and welders lathes and milling machines to accomplish what ever task needs to be done. True we need more tinkers, and maybe hard time will bring a few more to the fore front. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Originally Posted by jjones752: Lets hear it for the choir, excitement is relevant as well as speed. The track being small enough and the cars equal results in a good race. Some people just like a little bigger kick in the butt. Midget motors and motorcycle motors will probably dry up in the future. I am proposing a viable option. TQ's finally ran out of Crosleys, but the old 750 Honda is still hanging in there. I am >>>>>waiting for someone to bring up the big fly in my ointment as I see it. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Originally Posted by DAD: "The 9.47 million registered motorcycles in 2012 in the USA. Registered Motorcycles in The US sorted by date: 1999 – 4,152,433 – Registered motorcycles 2000 – 4,346,068 – Registered motorcycles 2001 – 4,903,056 – Registered motorcycles 2002 – 5,004,156 – Registered motorcycles 2003 – 5,370,035 – Registered motorcycles 2004 – 5,767,934 – Registered motorcycles 2005 – 6,227,146 – Registered motorcycles 2006 – 6,678,958 – Registered motorcycles 2007 – 7,138,476 – Registered motorcycles 2008 – 7,752,926 – Registered motorcycles 2009 – 7,929,724 – Registered motorcycles 2010 – 8,368,478 – Registered motorcycles 2011 – 8,810,650 – Registered motorcycles 2012 – 9.477,243 – Registered motorcycles" source: http://www.howmanyarethere.us/how-ma...red-in-the-us/ |
I'm finishing up my #13 as we speak and already looking at the pick and pull engine for my beast chassis in the shop. That car is going to be the cheap car that my dad may get some seat time in to most importantly, have FUN!! For us working guys out there, budgets are tight and for us tinkerers out there, building a cost effective better mouse trap is fun too. Am I going to beat a national midget with my cars, probably not. But I'll drive the wheels off of it trying if need be.... 😉
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Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Dad, You were talkin' about a fly in the ointment and I got one for ya. Shocks. My last Midget was an Edmunds Autoresarch Pavement Car with a Stanton Mopar. Had no buisness buyin' it but stupid is as stupid does. Anyhoo, it came with Penske Shocks and before the '05 season I took it down to Orange Show to shake it down. Wally Pankratz, Along with Jeff Wahl who now builds the Edmunds cars were there to give me a hand. Wally and I both took turns shakin' it down and then I pulled in and we replaced the Penskes with a new set of ARS shocks. Changing nothing else on the car, we went back out and picked up 4/10 /sec.Wally had it well under the track record at that point and even I got it into the low 13's. This was on a very green track with used Hoosiers. My point is that I did nothing more than to spend $2200.00 on some aluminum and valves to pick this up and remember, we were replacing Penskes which is a pretty darn good shock in its own right. Motorsports can really summed up with the following quote from the late,great Jim Shiels who before his untimely passing chartsd the history of Stockton 99 Speedway in Ca. It is as follows:
"If my fifty year Stockton research has shown me anything, it's the fact that every new division born to racing comes complete with 'cancer', and the day it's born is the same day it starts to die. Each new division is cheap to run, easy to maintain, provides lots of cars, crash and bang action, and attracts new fans, and then somebody says "let me improve that", "Let me upgrade this", " Let me add this", and very soon the cost factors are out of control and the division dies a sad death." All of us who have been around this sport have seen this happen time and time again............ |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Ken
The secret in racing next to having a good driver is definitely good set up. We have been using shocks built by Corey and Chet almost since their inception when they were rebuilding, custom valving and selling Carrera Shocks. There is a big difference between expensive and price effective. We have shocks that are 10 or 12 years old. Once a year or when they get messed up we send them back to ARS. And for a fraction of a new shock they come back ready to race again. If they have made improvements in valve technology (and they sure do that a lot) they tell us about it and by doing it this way we stay on top of things without buying new shocks all the time.. Like the old guy said You will get my ARS shocks from me by prying them from my cold dead hands, they are just that good. To have a successful race car we need >>>>>first a good driver, then we need a good handling well set up race car, followed by a good set of tires, then in forth place we have a well tunes smooth running motor. Without the first three requirements all the horsepower in the world is going to go up in smoke at the back of the pack. A big reason for us looking at Midgets is the Mini Sprint people decided to outlaw cockpit adjustable shocks because they might cost a racer too much money. This coming from the mouth of guys that easily spend over the cost of good shocks on Body Wraps and other no go show boat stuff for their car.. Racers need options, if you want to look pretty at the expense of performance be my guest but don't "ASS"ume I feel the same way. Rules need to be simple, to the point and easy to enforce. Montpelier has such a rule package. Rickey Bobby said something about the growing numbers of motorcycles being imported into the USA, the problem with his numbers is that only a fraction of a percent of these bikes are the $16,000.00 pocket rockets that we as well as Dwarf cars, Mod Lite, SCCA formula 1000 and Drag racers are bidding for. The big number in bikes are the Mo-Ped type get me to work for a gallon of gas a week I hope type, and a big number of them come from China and very seldom reach 1000 miles on their odometers before heading for the scrap heap waiting to be sent back to China so they can melt them back down (in Coal Fired Smelters) and sell back to us dumb greedy Yankee's.;):5: Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
"If my fifty year Stockton research has shown me anything, it's the fact that every new division born to racing comes complete with 'cancer', and the day it's born is the same day it starts to die. Each new division is cheap to run, easy to maintain, provides lots of cars, crash and bang action, and attracts new fans, and then somebody says "let me improve that", "Let me upgrade this", " Let me add this", and very soon the cost factors are out of control and the division dies a sad death."
All of us who have been around this sport have seen this happen time and time again............[/QUOTE] Ken That quote take a little while to sink in. It is indeed very true in many respects, however in-spite of this cancer the strong have somehow managed to survive. The best examples I can think of would be Sprint Cars, Midgets, Quarter Midgets and even the lowly little Go Kart. They may ebb and tide over the seasons, but just when things look hopeless something or someone come back and pulls them back up. I have seen it happen in Mini Sprints, I have seen it happen in Go Karts several times in my lifetime, Midgets are in flux right now suffering with this economy and lack of interest. Thank God that Guys like Kenny Brown of PowerI , Harold Hunter of Montpelier Speedway and several other people around the USA who have come up with Ideas that somehow give a breath of fresh air back into class of race car that I so dearly love. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Originally Posted by : Midgets are next at Montpelier on August 30th. |
Re: Montpelier Speedway Midget Series Returns Sat. August 2
Everyone just needs to come out and either race or watch the races at Montpelier. They are doing things right. They have been upgrading the track all year and the place is looking great. Midgets run on the 30th and the BOSS Sprint cars will be there Sept. 6th. The BOSS race will be one hell of a sprint car race to watch. I know we are looking forward to it
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