FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Seen a interview with Perris Owner/promoter and he said Flo only pays 1k per event and that his attendance is down 37% Said that yes, gas hit six fifty a gallon out there and people just stayed home.

I got no idea what flo's subscription levels are but at ten thousand that's 1.5 million and at a hundred fifty thousand it's 22.5 million
I wouldn't be surprised if half a million aren't subscribed just or racing in Sprint and LMs or more and that's 75 million.

If this is the business model, Its not just a joke, but a travesty for tracks.

Sure they got a lot of camera men and techs to pay but no tracks, NO RACING.
Also don't know if this is the USAC deal with Flo or what. But tracks like THAT and Perris, over half their races are USAC.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I wonder how many people they get in an average night? I guess that I am looking for a harder number of how many people they are losing a night. Let's say they average around 3000 folks a night, then they are probably losing $20,000 in revenue, that's a tough pill to swallow. To be fair, I do not know anything about Perris speedway except that it is on my bucket list so I am just pulling numbers out of the air.
The other thing that I would like to know is if FLO is paying the same thing for all events, as in is it still $1,000.00 when the National USAC guys are there vs. regional?

Also, what do the attendance numbers at other California tracks look like? Tracks that do not have FLO. Are they down substantially too?

I am not disagreeing with you Charles, but I would like to see more information before I clean off my pitchfork and light my torch to go after the streaming services.
If tracks are truly losing massive amounts of money then I would expect to see less and less local shows on FLO due to tracks wanting more money for the rights.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

What pitchfork? It's got to do with right and wrong.

Speedshift used to charge full price and offered the track a sum which they could accept or reject. Now USAC they show all USAC races on FLO. The track if a third of regular customers don't show up (Yet still get to see the show loses a ton) Here's your thousand, Never mind your out 29k in admissions, More if you count the concessions they may have purchased.

Then FLO throws a couple dozen 80k purse races out there. Like others said There wasn't a big crowd at all at Atomic last night.

Is it FloSports fault that gas is $3.50 to $6.50 a gallon across the country, no. FloSports is in the live streaming business, not petroleum.

If these tracks don’t like the deal they are getting from a live steaming service, then don’t sign the contract, or negotiate for better deal. Maybe some of these tracks need to negotiate with the traveling series that brings in a live streaming service and work out a better deal. If a deal can’t be met, then the track has every right to announce that they tried to get a certain series in, but a financial deal couldn’t be met due to live streaming connected to the travel series.
Something will give at some point.
But I’ll just go and support local tracks in person, since my health allows me. I’m not going sit at home and complain cause I can’t watch a race on tv for $1 or less through a subscription.

Maybe these tracks need to go back to charging for each race to watch as the GA gate price. Time will tell.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I think it makes sense for the touring series to be on Flo or DV, but it makes less sense for the tracks weekly shows to be on there.

1) because the low compensation doesn't offset loss of ticket sales
2) because it creates an environment where there is so much on the streaming services, you don't want to leave your couch

If I am in Central PA, I can go to Port or Lincoln and watch a regular show, or I can stay home and watch both in the comfort of my home and watch All Stars, USAC, Lucas Oil LM plus 100 other weekly shows. There's almost too much content to compete with.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Here is the interview You may have to go back to the beginning from this link The Flo talk starts about 4 minutes in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XdbQRX3m6I&t=377s

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Perris has 24 races on their schedule with 9 of this being USAC/CRA races. This is 37 % of their races. Not over half.

I had the pleasure of talking to someone back in July who knew a lot about this topic. Some of which he wouldn’t tell me and some he told me not to repeat, so I won’t. But what I can say if the Flo streaming model is unique. There’s way more on Flo than just racing and we forget that sometimes. Most of us would think the biggest audience on Flo would be the Chili Bowl, and we would be wrong. He wouldn’t tell me what the average number of viewers were for a USAC race but when I threw out the number of 1000, he said I was low, but not far off. So let’s just say Charles is right that 3000 are watching. How many of them live close enough to drive to the track anyway? I’ll say maybe 10%. So that’s 300 people. That’s $45,000 in Flo subscriptions money. That hardly adds up to 22 million someone mentioned. Now if all this is hypothetically true, that’s also 300 people are not buying a ticket. And that adds up to 9k the promoter loses in tickets alone, well actually 8 because someone said they get a grand from Flo. That’s a tangible number. But I still say the cost of everything now is every bit as much to blame as streaming is.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I was talking the number of people who bought into flo purely on Flo Racing. No it's not flo's fault that gas went up. But it's also races where the weather may have a chance of rain. If 3-400 people stay home at 30 dollars each Your right, it's 9-12k (Not counting concessions) Parking etc. Or half the purse.

Perris guy says something changes or USAC goes away.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

People get offended too easily nowadays. I wasn't implying that you were on a witch hunt, I was merely stating that I am not going to automatically blame Flo until I would see some clearer numbers. I don't necessarily agree that it is about right and wrong either, I just think it is about business. If the tracks are on the short end for weekly shows then they will stop signing the contracts or ask for more money, sooner or later the whole business of streaming races will find it's own level and they will have a template going forward.

One things for sure, it's not going away.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Not offended. Just pointing out that without race tracks there is no streaming or racing. And clearly if they can put up 80k races without the promises of fans in the stands. There is probably tens of thousands of dirt racing fans subscribed. Remember that Governors Reighn that paid fifty k to win at Eldora and four big LM races. All with no fans? Yet a USAC race gets a grand, IDK Just seems screwed up to me.

I've been on flo three years and I've watched two non racing events. (My fault) but it's why Im subscribed.

And yes, I said Ronk at THAT knew what he signed. But he's got a point.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Streaming sure didn't hurt attendance at the 4 Crown. Why Perris and not Eldora?

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Maybe attendance is down at some tracks because the ticket prices have gone up so much but peoples income has not! Local shows are at $20 to $25, throw in a sanctioning body and $30 is the basement price. Yet, the purse remain the same. Things that make you go hmm!

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Burg also had probably the largest crowd non sanctioned and no streaming last race. Think a lot of people with all the rainouts etc just needed some racing!

I have Flo and it has never stopped me from going to a track. I was never a Wing or Late Model fan, but with Flo I have been watching and becoming a fan.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I got no idea what it cost flo to stream a race either so there's that. I know a guy that mostly flys, rents a car and films. Plus usually one or two thers for setup that drive a van with all the equipment.

I really liked the answer that it will find it's place and there will either e streaming or not. I know there's kiwis, Aussies and even Brits who catch what they can on FLO.

To me, It's a I can see the race and know what happened. It's enjoyable in a sense, But not the stress relief of being there in person, the sound, sensation and commaderey that happens at the track

Then again, My fifty dollar gas gate and concession trip to Atomic was well over a hundo this year (90% gas) A trip I intend to make again next week for Xtreme

This isn’t about right and wrong, as someone said earlier, it is business. No one was hoodwinked, right? The track agreed to the terms. Now they are upset, understand, they can negotiate a better deal for next year.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I have never understood the economics of racing. It is why I got out of it as a participant!

I only watch USAC for the most part. I grew up on the West Side of Indianapolis. I am a straight up gear head. I have many other interests but USAC Non Wing Sprint cars are the one thing I will go out and do on my own. The other divisions fit in there as well. I just like it. The cars, the speed, the paint jobs, the sound and the guy putting his life on the line, because that is what is going on as well. I never got the fascination with the Chili Bowl either. It's a toy track inside a building. Eldora or Belleville is Midget racing. **** is dangerous.

Now, hoisting a 5000.00 dollar check for winning a Midget feature is an insult in my eyes. I was party to purchase an Ed Pink Midget engine fifteen years ago and it was close to 30k. We had a new Beast car and all the goodies. We are running the National Series and doing all the races. The entire package with spares was north of 100K. Of course we had sponsors. We had success. We had a big crash. It was OVER.

Somebody is making a ton of money and it is NOT THE RACERS.

I'm still going to go. I love racing. I just wish the guys putting their butts on the line were making a decent living. Look at TMez. All the talent in the world. He is sacrificing a heck of a lot to be the kind of racer he is. Robert Ballou as well. There are many others thank God. Racing isn't easy and it's super expensive.

so now there are two entities making tons of dough off others labor. USAC and now Flo? Does not seem right to Me. Like I said, I am only a fan. I am going to the races with my wallet. The economics and ******** are lost on Me. I gave up that fight a long time ago.

PS- Racing a NASCAR stock car in no where near as difficult other than the grind. Some of the guys who graduated and succeed in this series tell me so.

I hope we hang onto Non Wing open wheel racing until they throw dirt in my face. I'm looking at twenty years. :22:

PS X 2 Chet is the absolute worst. Lord God Almighty don't get me started

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I remember this banter from just over a year ago:

https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/sho...d.php?t=118283

Everything is going to just fine, the Inflation Reduction Act is going to save this whole mess.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

:5:

$2 beers and the whole experience at eldora. I’m sure there are people that go to eldora mainly for the camping & party atmosphere, the racing is just a bonus

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I can tell you this, I have specifically talked with a few track owners. #1 thing that Flo has proven, our audience is not as big as everyone thought it was. When a track has a sell out crowd, many in that crowd are once or twice a year fans. Watch the interview with Josh King from Florence Speedway. His most profitable events didn't even have a late model on the track.
Like someone else said, great we get 1500 or 2000 people to watch the event. How many are really within driving distance? I'm going to throw something out there that has killed several tracks for me RAIN OUT POLICY!!! My schedule is beyond crazy. I am lucky if I am able to make it to the same track twice in 1 year. Almost everyone wants you to use your ticket at the next show or another race. Some reschedule, which knocks me out as well. So if the weather looks iffy, Im staying home or going to a different track. Flo has gotten me to go to tracks that I have never been to.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Interesting for sure. Also thirty years ago we had enough LM's to have more than full fields at three tracks in the tri state. Brownstown, Burg and Florence.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

$6.40 gas & horrible traffic?
My one visit to Perris took me 3 hrs. to drive 75 miles from LAX...
What's gas in Ohio now? I just filled my tank for $3.10/ gallon in Connecticut, which is an expensive state overall.... Ohio usually seems pretty cheap for gas...
I hope they can save this track!
$1,000 is chicken feed! :7:

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Even though I live in Pennsylvania I have attended 16 Oval Nationals weekends as a paying fan in the grandstands since my first one in 2000 and my last in 2017.

Although the racing is usually top notch, the place has always had attendance issues. The Thursday & Friday programs have always been sparsely attended, and I mean sparsely. I used to have conversations with Ken Wagner about how dismal the turnout was for such a great weekend of racing. He always made mention of the LA traffic and the number of other activities to do in the area going against the track. Others I talked to felt because of the lack of weekly sprint car racing at Perris the place never really developed a fanbase like Ascot/CRA did. So, the attendance problem thing is not new.

Scott D says that people message him for a shout out and that those people are staying home because of Flo, but could it be they can't afford to go because of the fascist politicians and their overreach that has bankrupt their once wonderful state? Flo may now provide the only way they can keep in touch with what transpires at Perris. Once Flo's gone, those people could be gone too, so be careful what you wish for.

Very few people know what the current Flo contracts and revenues are, so it is pure speculation on what money is being made and how it's distributed, so in my thinking to make Flo the boogieman even if it was doesn't really cut it as far as The PAS financial problems, as it's been a ongoing issue, fanned by COVID and even more now by the CA economy.

Does Don K have the right to express his concerns with USAC, FLO and other partners when they negotiate the future contract? Absolutely, but why air the dirty laundry video, what's that get you? It smells of victim mentality that seems prevalent and so unbecoming in our society today.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Jeff, cannot disagree with most of what you have posted. But you asked why the air dirty laundry video. If you start watching at just before the 11-minute mark, he basically explains it. He states that he has asked one of the entities to produce numbers and they will not do it. If they had, perhaps this issue would not exist. Somebody, and I do not know who, is making a %$#@ pile of money - especially with nearly all of the site ads being corporate dollars the past two seasons - and it is not the tracks or the teams.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I think pretty much everyone here has made great points.

I'd just like to add something no one's brought up: Flo's server costs. I guarantee you they ain't cheap. That is all!

P.S. It would be nice to see Flo throw USAC a bone and go in on some type of big event. I mean, USAC kinda did open this whole realm of motorsports to them.

Anyone happen to check if the USAC point fund has gone up since Flo came along?

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Scott, I love Perris Auto Speedway and I have great respect for Don, you and everyone associated, as running any business isn't easy, but racetrack promotion probably doubly so.

I am the GM of a successful 46-lane bowling center in Mechanicsburg. It takes long hours, a lot of dedication and sometimes unpopular decisions to make it run well. So many people from customers to our own staff see all the money we take in and think we're getting rich, when nothing could be further from the truth. They don't see the dollars paid out to keep it a fun place to recreate. Costs like utilities, business insurance, payroll, employee insurance, building maintenance, restaurant and pinsetter equipment maintenance, advertising and much more, not to mention the cost of all these things have skyrocketed in the last couple of years.

Being in business is not for the faint of heart, so I empathize with Don and his current situation, I can sense his frustration of putting his heart into The PAS for a long time and realizing that it could possibly slip away. I wish him well in going against the Lake Peris project and getting more people to frequent the speedway; however, I didn't care for the part of the video that pointed fingers at Flo, when in reality we have only speculation on Flo's total income, overhead costs and net profits generated from its racing broadcasts.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

I think people underestimate the value Flo has brought to our sport. Viewership of individual events has gone up significantly by bringing the possibility to watch every race to every fan. This adds value for sponsors of both the organizations and teams. More value means more investment.

I have mixed feelings about race tracks and promoters today. Some show up, unlock the gate and do nothing else. Then they complain that nobody shows up while packing the back gate with 5-6 classes and running to midnight. That is not "promotion." Nobody wants to sit at a race track for 6 hours watching classes they have no interest in. You need a short program of one or two classes and then give the customers more amenities. If people feel the value they will not only show up but also pay more to be there. I tend to love the tracks that add value and run a tight ship. Fortunately, there are still tracks out there doing just that! Make sure to support them!

Do I believe the tracks are getting a raw deal with Flo? Yes. How raw of a deal is the question. I don't know what Flo's overhead behind the scenes is but I can figure out the at the track production costs fairly close. The problem comes in figuring out Flo's income. At $149.99 annually per subscriber with access to all Flo content makes it difficult. USAC has 144,000+ followers on Facebook and 58,700 on Twitter and I'm sure most of those overlap. We can use Facebook's average conversion rate of 9.21% to make an educated guess of approximately 13,262 people. Subtract your overhead from there.

13,262 X $149.99 = $1,989,167/99 events = $20,092 per race in revenue for Flo with no rain outs.

I'm going to say production costs are around $2500 per race. By the time you pay the announcer, camera operators, gas and hotels and internet to upload the races. Plus add in the $1,000 per race to the tracks. Lets add an additional $500 for incidentals. So 99 races X $4000 expenses = $396,000 annual expenses at the track.

$1,989,167 - $396,000 = $1,593,167 left to pay for whatever Flo's behind the scenes expenses are. Now we would need to know what USAC receives from Flo for the rights to the broadcasts.

My disclaimer here is that these are all estimates. I don't know what the actual number of subscribers is and have no way to find out. Hope this gives people something to chew on.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Posted on December 11, 2021


https://www.usacracing.com/news/item...22-usac-season

Furthermore, the overall point fund for USAC’s National divisions now totals $320,000, an increase of 60 percent since the 2019 season.

The pay for USAC’s AMSOIL Sprint Car National champion has drastically risen to $50,000 to win in 2022 as part of a total point fund of $200,000. By comparison, the series’ point fund was $125,000 just two seasons ago in 2019.

The USAC NOS Energy Drink Midget National champion will now collect a $25,000 reward in 2022, as part of a point fund overhaul for the series, which has seen a three-year increase from $50,000 to $80,000 since 2019.

USAC Silver Crown’s champion in the coming year will take home $20,000 as part of an overall $40,000 point fund.

We can debate the plus’s and minuses. In the big picture my stance is we’re still pretty early in the whole streaming thing and that also applies to the distribution of revenue. This statement is absolutely my own take, but I can’t picture a scenario where either one intentionally hurts the other. I’m of the belief that things will be analyzed and adjustments made. I am however sure of a couple uncomfortable truths. The first one is, while many of us live and die for this wonderful sport we love, we overall are barely a niche. And secondly, when it comes even to dirt track racing, wingless is even a smaller slice of the pie

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Im going to say this, While POINT FUNDS may be good for the six or seven teems following the series.

IT AIN'T DONE **** FOR CAR COUNT. Transfer half of it to purses.

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

"wingless is even a smaller slice of the pie"

Which is why this "World on Inlaws" series scares Me..... non wing racing is really small. I have meet younger fans who did not even realize there was such a thing as Non Wing Sprint Car Racing!!!

that's crazy. Then back up 60 years when Sprints only ran on half miles..... you don't have to go back very far. I'm not going to drop names but I know a bunch of guys who are 70+ who raced..... they call everything in Indiana a "Midget Track"

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

And our last half mile track is about go the way of the Buffalo.:(

Re: FLO, Even I have a problem with this.
 

Lot more Buffalo out there than half mile tracks these days :)

Give me a home, where at least one buffalo still roams, please!!!

With FLO being a privately held company you aren't going to see their financials. Unless someone in the know openly talks about it its very unlikely we will know their financials. Usually, the only way to see those numbers is if you sign a NDA and that's usually the prerequisite to some sort of bigger deal like a merger/acquisition. Then you are really not going to put it out to the public.

Tracks/promoters pay the purses. Not the sanctioning body.