Dry Sump Questions
 

Ok guys, new to the forum here but I've been around sprinters for a while. I've been kicking around the idea of putting an engine together and getting a car together slowly. Money is a subject but I COMPLETELY understand that racing is NOT CHEAP. When I ask these engine questions, I am NOT trying to do it as cheap as possible just wondering were money should be spent. I am not looking to build a USAC caliber engine. Just a local -12 steel block 410.

Here's my thoughts on a -12 steel block. New Dart Little M or SHP block depending on horsepower calculations. New forged crank. High quality rods and pistons.Top all that off with a set of NICE used -12 heads and injection.

First question is about Dry Sump oil systems...... Is a Dry Sump mostly used due to its scavenging capability? Again, I am not looking to build a USAC engine here and don't really mind a little air and oil around the crankshaft lol. I see the Racesaver guys running a Wet Sump, oval track pan small block water pump and high quality balancer. Is a Wet Sump "good enough" for a 410 engine build? Or do these high RPM engines require a Dry Sump oil system. As mentioned before, I'm not looking for a fire breathing 850 hp monster. Just a nice and reliable 12 head steely.

I could be completely off on the thoughts of running a Wet Sump system on a 410 and if I am please don't be afraid to say so. With the modified guys and 305 guys running it I thought that might be a way to save a few dollars on an engine build.

Thanks in advance!

A guy I help down here in NZ has a steel 410 in one of his drive school cars, 23 degree heads and wet sump. Never gives any trouble, we turn it between 7000 - 7500. Don't see why you can't do something similar.

The advantage of a dry sump is the engine has a constant supply of oil that has been allowed to stay in one spot long enough to get most of the air out of it, I ran tests on a tilt table,on various engines, to find the best place to put vents, on an engine with an oil pan, at some RPM, the gear drive for the cam, would just rip the oil right out of the pan, and for a while, it was on top of the heads, it was unbelievable how quickly that would happen, and for an instant you have no oil pressure, after being a part of that testing, I will always run a dry sump. Jmho. Bob

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Appreciate the input guys! Bob, do you remember the RPM range where you noticed the issues you reported? As the other poster mentioned, if we twisted it around 7500 do you think we would see the issues you have mentioned?

It really never repeated, sometimes it was on the way up, sometimes down, sometimes at steady state, I had put Plex windows in the pan, so we could video what was going on, it was an experience to watch, and then try to find out where the vents worked best. I could tilt the table as much as 45* in 2 directions, but that was not needed. Bob

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Most Of the 305 guys are running an oil accumulator, Keep pressure to the bearings at all times. We have never lost a bottom end running one. Dry sump is the way to go but poor people got poor ways, an accumulator will get you by.

That's what I'd do it I couldn't find the beans for a system. Bob

We ran a wet sump on our 360 wing & non wing with zero oil issues
The key is a good pan with trap doors and the correct pickup
Do not use a high volume pump, it can suck all the oil out on a long straight
We always used a stock melling pump and shimmed the spring to give it more pressure
Dry dump is nice but not a necessary

I ran a wet dump 410 for years, even ran my first aluminum block wet sump until the funds were there to convert it to dry.

Thanks guys! Really appreciate all the info!!

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

look at at a ump mod, how they hike up they are all wet sump engines most turn 8000 or more rpms wouldnt be afraid to do it just get a good pan

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by FNG:
Ok guys, new to the forum here but I've been around sprinters for a while. I've been kicking around the idea of putting an engine together and getting a car together slowly. Money is a subject but I COMPLETELY understand that racing is NOT CHEAP. When I ask these engine questions, I am NOT trying to do it as cheap as possible just wondering were money should be spent. I am not looking to build a USAC caliber engine. Just a local -12 steel block 410.

Here's my thoughts on a -12 steel block. New Dart Little M or SHP block depending on horsepower calculations. New forged crank. High quality rods and pistons.Top all that off with a set of NICE used -12 heads and injection.

First question is about Dry Sump oil systems...... Is a Dry Sump mostly used due to its scavenging capability? Again, I am not looking to build a USAC engine here and don't really mind a little air and oil around the crankshaft lol. I see the Racesaver guys running a Wet Sump, oval track pan small block water pump and high quality balancer. Is a Wet Sump "good enough" for a 410 engine build? Or do these high RPM engines require a Dry Sump oil system. As mentioned before, I'm not looking for a fire breathing 850 hp monster. Just a nice and reliable 12 head steely.

I could be completely off on the thoughts of running a Wet Sump system on a 410 and if I am please don't be afraid to say so. With the modified guys and 305 guys running it I thought that might be a way to save a few dollars on an engine build.

Thanks in advance!

Why does it have to be -12? Dry sump becomes more a necessity above a certain RPM level. If you want to run wet sump, you'll need to build the entire engine around that goal, like heads that are better suited for a lower RPM. The newer and more trickier you get with the heads, the higher the RPM needs to be to take advantage. Some really good 23's or maybe some 18's would also be cheaper to get other parts for like headers and rocker arms. The package needs to work together, so if you go with -12 you'll need to turn it up to make those heads happy and I'm guessing make wet sump a non-starter and dry sump a necessity. Keep in mind the track you intend to run on too, if its dry slick often or a short stop & go track you may never need -12 heads. What you give up on top end w/23 or 18, if you build and tune properly, you'll have an advantage on exit. JMO

-12 heads are low RPM stump pullers. They top out at about 750 HP, and are a pretty economical way to go for a sprinter. I would buy a used -12 aluminum dry sump engine before building a new steel engine, of courae that ia a gamble too.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Rhody:
-12 heads are low RPM stump pullers. They top out at about 750 HP, and are a pretty economical way to go for a sprinter. I would buy a used -12 aluminum dry sump engine before building a new steel engine, of courae that ia a gamble too.

I'm not familiar with -12, but if what you say is true, then great. I'm curious though, whats low RPM to you?

I gear that engine to spin 8200. My other engines I gear for 8800 to 9000 rpm. The -12 is much more drivable than the others. The -12 also went 25 races between rebuilds.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

If the rules let you run a dry sump DO IT It is cheap insurance against engine failure.
I can guarantee you that if dry sumps were legal with UMP or USMTS modifieds they all would have them.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Rhody:
I gear that engine to spin 8200. My other engines I gear for 8800 to 9000 rpm. The -12 is much more drivable than the others. The -12 also went 25 races between rebuilds.

8200 may be too much for wet sump depending on how long you stay at the higher RPM, but its lower than I expected. With some nice 23's he could safely pull off wet sump. You could probably get away with a higher peak RPM if you don't linger there. Some may disagree with that.

^disagree wet dump engines turn well over 8200 on a regular basis every week, have two of them that can and do. As kcar92 stated mods run 8200 and higher all the time(more like 8500-9100). Can't run cheap parts and turn that hard all the time

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by 2starcar:
^disagree wet dump engines turn well over 8200 on a regular basis every week, have two of them that can and do. As kcar92 stated mods run 8200 and higher all the time(more like 8500-9100). Can't run cheap parts and turn that hard all the time

I turn both of my wet sump 360's that high as well. Only oil related issue I have encountered was a pump drive shaft breaking.

And, I would like to know how an oil pan knows what heads are on the top? LOL

I think the oil pan's shape and baffles are the concern for correct and good scavenging. Is why it was referenced.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Theoretically(as I unfortunately do not have nay experience building sprint car engines "yet") the only issue that I can see from turning a higher RPM on a wet sump engine with a pan where the pick up was located in a well on the right rear would be that since the pump is then pumping more oil at a time, there would be more oil in the overhead than would be in an engine running a lower RPM. Is it possible that the drain back from the head could be improved, therefore getting the oil back down to the pan from the heads quicker?

For the record, my 360 with 23 degree heads runs best at high RPM. If I don't get that engine up to 8600 it's a dog. Unfortunately I don't have a high dollar tach, so I don't know my lowest RPM on the laps that I bog the engine. Obviously cam profile is also an issue affecting where the engine makes its power.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Unlucky#9:
Theoretically(as I unfortunately do not have nay experience building sprint car engines "yet") the only issue that I can see from turning a higher RPM on a wet sump engine with a pan where the pick up was located in a well on the right rear would be that since the pump is then pumping more oil at a time, there would be more oil in the overhead than would be in an engine running a lower RPM. Is it possible that the drain back from the head could be improved, therefore getting the oil back down to the pan from the heads quicker?

Have you ever noticed how much room is around the push rods? How much more 'drain back' do you need?

Originally Posted by Can26:
Have you ever noticed how much room is around the push rods? How much more 'drain back' do you need?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in a V engine such as a sprint car engine, wouldn't gravity pull the oil away from the holes for the push rods? Therefore the majority of the oil would then drain back around the outside of the crank case verses down into the valley?

Have done this exact thing to a modified engine that will momentarily have oil pressure issues coming off high speed by locating ports in the front and rear of the right side head, as far out and low as possible and placing a return lines to the pan. It allows for easier oil return when car is rolled over.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Unlucky#9:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in a V engine such as a sprint car engine, wouldn't gravity pull the oil away from the holes for the push rods? Therefore the majority of the oil would then drain back around the outside of the crank case verses down into the valley?

Just try to point out that there is no way possible to 'flood' the top end of an engine. And also, as long as no 'outside line' is plumbed into the head, all the oil will travel through the valley one way or another.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

I would buy a used dry sump system from a trustworthy source first before anything else if you really want to piece one together because it sounds like you can't afford reliability problems. We're still doing 360, 410 since 1985 with several championships including USAC sprint and unfortunately for you, your logic sounds like mine did in 1984! I'd be saving for a fresh used -12 Shaver/Gaerte way cheaper than you'll ever piece one together.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Can26:
Just try to point out that there is no way possible to 'flood' the top end of an engine. And also, as long as no 'outside line' is plumbed into the head, all the oil will travel through the valley one way or another.

Absolutely can flood the top of the engine with oil due to windage from a 410/430 crank not allowing drain back past the crank. That's why we've blocked all drain back through the valley of a 410 since the late 80's/90's and run a dry sump scavenge line into the valley. The aluminum block manufacturers provide the provision. We used to put a pipe down though the injection valley plate fro the scavenge line. We still allow the 360 to drain through enlarged drain backs in the valley, but I know of no serious sprint engine builders that still try to drain 410's through the valley. One reason why 360 can run a 3 stage dry sump pump, where a 410 is always a 4 stage minimum.

Originally Posted by Baylands:
I would buy a used dry sump system from a trustworthy source first before anything else if you really want to piece one together because it sounds like you can't afford reliability problems. We're still doing 360, 410 since 1985 with several championships including USAC sprint and unfortunately for you, your logic sounds like mine did in 1984! I'd be saving for a fresh used -12 Shaver/Gaerte way cheaper than you'll ever piece one together.

This^^^^^

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Unlucky#9:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in a V engine such as a sprint car engine, wouldn't gravity pull the oil away from the holes for the push rods? Therefore the majority of the oil would then drain back around the outside of the crank case verses down into the valley?

Exactly my thoughts.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017...09&bid=1675539

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

FWIW there's a used complete dry-sump system on HH for $1200 right now.

If you can't afford that you're in the wrong class.

Re: Dry Sump Questions
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
Exactly my thoughts.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2017...09&bid=1675539

The lower oil drain backs you see at the lower corners of the cylinder heads (under the valve covers)still drain into the valley. There are no secret oil drain backs that don't go through the valley. Ford, Chevy, Mopar, race V8 Toyota, etc.