Why Fuel Injection?
 

I'm a recent convert to sprints, my background is karting and Dirt Late Models since 1986, so Fuel injection was no where around. I live in the SE(Georgia) and we have no sprints unless a touring outfit comes thru, its been 15 years at least since I saw a WoO show. Anyway as I'm attempting to further my sprint education I wanted to ask, why do sprints almost universally run mechanical fuel injection? Is it a matter of tradition or is there a performance advantage? Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with a new non-wing convert. Secondly, who's system do you prefer and why?

Peace.:24b:

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Id go more to the point of why Carburetors? To keep the appearance of a STOCK CAR?

It's more efficient. I remember the whole GM V6 line was junk until they went with injection.

I'm an old timer our reason along with a mag you need no battery or charging system!Engler is top or the line on many type applications

Definitely a performance advantage
Single runners feeding fuel to each cylinder never has a lean or rich cylinder like a shared plenum of an intake manifold
There's no float bowl to slosh over, or run dry so you don't have to worry about the g forces in a turn upsetting fuel delivery
With that all said we ran a 305 that had carbs and FI, after initial excelleration the carbureted engines ran competitvly with the FI engines

As a long time friend told me, Aj Watson, don't let fuel injection intimidate you, it is simply a series of leaks and bypasses, fuel supplied by an engine driven fuel pump, which means that you have a speed regulated pump. There are many adjustments that can be made without taking it apart, and also quickly. It takes some thought to figure out how it works, but not impossible, I chose Hilborn because it was a long time ago, and they have some really helpful techs, who are interested in your problem. There are several that are really good also and willing to help, I used to work with Tim Engler on several occasions also, he is super also. I wasn't having any carb issues, but the mechanical injection really improved performance as well as fuel consumption, I'd never look back. Bob

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

A pure guess, but I would imagine fuel injection became universal on sprint cars and midgets due to the closer technical connections with Indy cars (engine-wise anyway) in the 50's? It would be fairly easy for a team to justify fuel injection on their Offy powered sprint car if the Offy powered Indy car had it, and sooner or later everyone is on the same bandwagon.

Carbs on late models have been part of the rules all along as far as I know, and would have made more sense in the 70's when late models looked like a street car with fat tires, so maintaining a stock appearing look with a carb would have been appropriate.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

I appreciate the response, though I think some misunderstood the nature of my query. I'm not looking to prove or disprove the validity of carburetors over injection or vice-versa. My goal is to try and get a non-wing sprint class going in my area, where there are NO SPRINTS. To say I face an uphill battle is an understatement, but that's my goal. I still love dirt late models but recent changes in the rules and the general trend in the class, even the crates has put DLM's completely out of reach, both monetarily wise, tech wise and time and help needed to run competitively. The new rules they put in place I think only further separate the elites from the blue collar more. Having said all that, in my down time last year I discovered a new class called the NorthEast Wingless Sprints, using a GM602 w/HEI and a carb as well as a small transmission and a starter. Now I know pretty much everything about this package makes the diehard sprint guys cringe and feel nauscious, I understand. What you have to understand is, where I am, everything sprint people hold near and dear, is as foreign to us as if it was martian technology.

Now those 602 sprints I think might be inexpensive enough and simple enough to actually get guys to take a chance on racing non-wing sprints. Tracks around me are NOT setup with push vehicles, or push off areas or any of the infrastructure required to pull off a regular sprint show/class. So, the transmission may be a sacrilege in Indiana, but here in Georgia it may just be what swings people over to give sprints a chance. Once they see how much easier they are to work on and how great the racing is I think it'll take off.

In my research I've found 3 likely ways to go powerplant wise, GM602 w/carb, GM604 w/carb, CT525 w/carb and Racesaver 305 w/injection. I don't like the 602, especially since its treated as "disposable" and its anemic, but the price makes people willing to give it a go. After watching an untold number of youtube videos I think the racesaver 305 is the raciest of the group, but the injection and the price of it and the CT525 may be a bridge to far. Another thing to consider is, 305 racesavers Wing cars already exist in the Carolinas and a few I've talked to expressed interest taking their wings off and helping get the class going or at least putting on an exhibition or two. Anyway I've wandered off.

Ok the GM602 is rated at 350HP on gas w/carb, when its switched to alcohol carb it goes to 400HP, would putting injection on it make it anymore powerful or racier? I only ask because I once saw a dyno comparison of an engine switched from carb to injection and the injection made the power curve much flatter, where the carb kinda swung down before regaining on the top end, w/peak power nearly identical. I only mention this as maybe adding injection might make the GM602 race a little better.

A guy named Joe McEwen ran a 602 against the race saver 305s up at Mercer (winged) a few years ago as a test program and parity of power was actually pretty close between the two.

OK, why don't you put your money and effort to work with a track owner or promoter to put together a proposal to try to get say a half dozen races in your area, and do some promotional work to get the cars you can to come race in GA, I have a friend in All who has a similar want, he has spent his own money and time, but ends up coming to Indiana to race it just isn't in their genes down there, we used to make at least two trips a season to the hi banks of Atomic Speedway, and had good crowds and good relationship with the people, it takes some thought and work, but can be done. JAT. Bob

They are so slow . Hard to watch crates sprints

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by suzuki756:
They are so slow . Hard to watch crates sprints

Crates sprints are still better than no Sprints.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
OK, why don't you put your money and effort to work with a track owner or promoter to put together a proposal to try to get say a half dozen races in your area, and do some promotional work to get the cars you can to come race in GA, I have a friend in All who has a similar want, he has spent his own money and time, but ends up coming to Indiana to race it just isn't in their genes down there, we used to make at least two trips a season to the hi banks of Atomic Speedway, and had good crowds and good relationship with the people, it takes some thought and work, but can be done. JAT. Bob

Well that's what I'm working towards, but I want to have my ducks in a row before I go trying to sell someone else on the idea. Indiana is the hub of non-wing sprint racing so I reached out here and a few other places to try and learn what I can. I've never raced a sprint, I've never worked on anything with injection, my only experience with torsion bars was back in 86' on a late model my friends dad had. I get the devotion to 410 sprints as they are, I'm blown away watching them on the tube myself, but hoping to get people in my area to venture into that end of the pool is a kin to asking them to do a local space program... I appreciate the positive input I've got from some, the nay sayers have their right to be opposed, but try and understand, I'm trying to spread the seeds of your sport in some very hard clay, so helping me break up the soil anyway I can, helps you too. I'll be honest I hate wings, hate may be too strong a word, but I have no interest in trying to start up any sort of wing division, somebody else can do that. High down force is part of whats beginning to kill late models, IMHO. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by davidm:
Crates sprints are still better than no Sprints.

My thoughts exactly. I want to put together the best plan I can, striking a balance between affordability and excitement for the fan and the driver. We have a 602 division late model class that is a terrible follow the leader snooze-fest and the engines sound like they are in a horrible bog. The 602's in the NorthEast wingless sprints are more lively, but out of all the economy non-wing sprints I've researched, to me the racesaver 305's are the most lively, even more so than the CT525's that the UMSS run up in wisconsin.

Racesaver 305(Elite) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2bDbRpfK0M&t=168s
CT525(UMSS) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPlMARmc9W8
GM602(NEWS) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqcLXhAcqV4
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ

D-2 Midgets

A. The class already exists.

B. A good chunk of them are going to be chain-drive, self-starting

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by kendirt:
D-2 Midgets

A. The class already exists.

B. A good chunk of them are going to be chain-drive, self-starting

Thank you for your input, but I'm really only interested in a full size sprint class. We have NO WEEKLY SPRINTS in Georgia.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

I am pretty much opposed to anything that further fragments sprint cars, so I would say of the options you list, a standard Racesaver 305 would be my pick. I came from asphalt stock cars,and part of the appeal for me was the lack of rules, and the fact that you could take a 410 or ASCS 360 and race all over the country. When I started I had no clue about sprint car technology and just learned as I went. I like sprints because they are monsters, so I hate 305's, but if I was in GA and dead set against wings I would try the 305 route, that way the same car can go race with the winged Racesavers and I am not stuck with an oddball car that I can't race anywhere else. You may not be interested in wing racing but if you are trying to attract more cars that should be a consideration. I would also stay away from starters and transmissions, they are hurting the budget non wing class out here because of the expense.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

I will tell you one thing, the 305 is not more powerful than the Ct525. I am the one that has been doing the testing of the Ct525 for the UMSS up here in Minnesota. The Evolution 525 by Pace Performance has 580HP and really high torque that I can't remember right now. Last year I only ran it in the open form with the wing against the ASCS 360s and at the last race of the year the lap times of a Ct525 were very close to the ASCS motors that have a lot more HP and double the cost. The beauty of this motor is that with no modifications other than a different spacer under the carb it will be restricted down to the 305 motor levels and is now running in the 305 class at Knoxville in that configuration. This year we will be running this motor in the same car in the wing and non wing UMSS sprint series. For it to get down to the level of the SBC 360 motors of the UMSS non wing series we will be running a different MSD box and a rev limiter but no change in the spacer, so the only modification between running both classes will to be to swap the box and throw on the non wing front axle. The goal is to get it down to just under 400hp. If I want I will be able to run this motor in the non wing UMSS, 305 Knoxville, Winged UMSS, non wing HRA, and even USAC or WAR if I wanted to travel. 80 shows before you even have to think about a freshen and then a trade in program from Pace. I think if I were setting up a new non wing budget series I would either go with one of the following options - 305 racesaver, 604 crate, or the Ct525 with the Knoxville spacer. 604 crate is going to be the least expensive, followed by the Racesaver, and then the 525 when you are talking new motors. Other considerations would be if you want the option to use the motor in winged divisions and different classes where the 305 and 525 are going to have more options there. As far as starters, don't do it as it will cause nothing but headaches for the teams. Up here every team is required to have or to arrange a 4 wheeler to start them. 500cc and above wheelers can start all these.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by Rhody:
I am pretty much opposed to anything that further fragments sprint cars, so I would say of the options you list, a standard Racesaver 305 would be my pick. I came from asphalt stock cars,and part of the appeal for me was the lack of rules, and the fact that you could take a 410 or ASCS 360 and race all over the country. When I started I had no clue about sprint car technology and just learned as I went. I like sprints because they are monsters, so I hate 305's, but if I was in GA and dead set against wings I would try the 305 route, that way the same car can go race with the winged Racesavers and I am not stuck with an oddball car that I can't race anywhere else. You may not be interested in wing racing but if you are trying to attract more cars that should be a consideration. I would also stay away from starters and transmissions, they are hurting the budget non wing class out here because of the expense.

Thank you I'll take that into consideration. I am as you put it, "dead set against wings", I won't bother if wings are involved because it just adds another dimension of difficulty, that and the FASTRAK crate late model people tried to get a wing sprint class going, but got no interest. The difference in what I'm planning to do and what they did is I'm gonna build 2 cars and actually let people try them out and see how awesome they are. The NEWS guys up north did it that way and the class exploded in a very short time. The FASTRAK dudes just threw the idea out and hoped somebody would build a car... Crickets. Personally I think the racing is better with non-wing than a wing, not that WoO sprints aren't impressive, but the minute you slap a wing on anything the engine costs go up and up and up, because it takes HP to push it threw the air. The upside to where you are in California, is that its the other hotbed of sprints. Out of all the budget minded (full size) sprint car classes I've looked into, the RS305 is by far the most racy, to me. The RS305 & 360 wing stuff exists in the Carolina's(as a tour) and in Florida, but zero weekly sprints of any kind run in Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina or Tennessee, that I am aware of. The biggest reason I'm considering the GM602 is there is already an abundance of them around my area and thats one less obstacle in swaying people to commit. Second, the GM602 is what is working in the NorthEast as well as the transmission/starter deal. I'm only in the planning stages, trying to learn everything I can, watching to see what works in other areas and do everything I can to make this a success. I really do appreciate everyone's input, opinions and advice. I do have one question, you mentioned the transmission being an issue, what's the problem with it? Failures or Initial expense?

Originally Posted by suzuki756:
They are so slow . Hard to watch crates sprints

Exactly... I think what the op is missing is that if you dumb a sprint car down enuff to where anybody can have one...what you'll have is an Emod that out runs them.
And if you're in LM country... That's because that's what the people want to see. As a rule, a lot of LM folk just don't connect to sprint car. But I admire your enthusiasm.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

USCS Southern Thunder Tour Runs Georgia, Alabama, North/South Carolina and northern Florida quite a bit. It's a 360 winged deal with ASCS rules.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by motorhead748:
Exactly... I think what the op is missing is that if you dumb a sprint car down enuff to where anybody can have one...what you'll have is an Emod that out runs them.
And if you're in LM country... That's because that's what the people want to see. As a rule, a lot of LM folk just don't connect to sprint car. But I admire your enthusiasm.

Hey I get it, 410 is the e-ching. I don't disagree. Whats funny is you mentioned my plan as, "dumbing down" the sprint makes it an "Emod", that's funny because we don't have those either... Your assertion that I'm attempting to dumb down sprints is accurate, I want it to be as "plug n play" as possible, I want to erase any fears, but maintain the core excitement I've discovered in non-wing sprints. I'm a 30 year DLM convert attempting to convert my countrymen. If we are honest, sprints were not always 410 fire breathing monsters, they became that. A typical saturday night at the races in my area on the GA/SC border is this: 1 class of stk 4 cylinders, 1 class of V8 street stock and 3 classes of Dirt Late Models(GM602 Sportsman, GM604 Crates & Steel Head 358 Limited Late). Supers on a weekly basis died out 10+ years ago. Racing here is in decline, people don't go to watch as much as they did, the economy has never really recovered since 2008. I've started listening to a lot of sprint car podcasts like, JackSlash, WFOpenwheel and Dirt Nation to try and learn as much as I can. Funny thing is on every podcast they mention how important it is to convert the DLM/Modified crowd to sprints, well your talking to one, but down here we are as dedicated to Dirt Late Model as the clay is hard in July. I know these people, I know what confuses and scares them from looking into sprint cars and I'm doing the best i can to get them to dip a toe in the pool. I know if I can ever get it started and show people what I've seen, it'll catch like fire, but telling them they need to build 410 sprints as a place to start would be absurd. You guys have been in this stuff for decades, its the norm, but its alien technology looking in from the outside. I see now why those before me gave up trying to get sprints to work down here.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by opnwhlmnd:
USCS Southern Thunder Tour Runs Georgia, Alabama, North/South Carolina and northern Florida quite a bit. It's a 360 winged deal with ASCS rules.

Yes they do, thank you.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by Jcpelly:
I will tell you one thing, the 305 is not more powerful than the Ct525. I am the one that has been doing the testing of the Ct525 for the UMSS up here in Minnesota. The Evolution 525 by Pace Performance has 580HP and really high torque that I can't remember right now. Last year I only ran it in the open form with the wing against the ASCS 360s and at the last race of the year the lap times of a Ct525 were very close to the ASCS motors that have a lot more HP and double the cost. The beauty of this motor is that with no modifications other than a different spacer under the carb it will be restricted down to the 305 motor levels and is now running in the 305 class at Knoxville in that configuration. This year we will be running this motor in the same car in the wing and non wing UMSS sprint series. For it to get down to the level of the SBC 360 motors of the UMSS non wing series we will be running a different MSD box and a rev limiter but no change in the spacer, so the only modification between running both classes will to be to swap the box and throw on the non wing front axle. The goal is to get it down to just under 400hp. If I want I will be able to run this motor in the non wing UMSS, 305 Knoxville, Winged UMSS, non wing HRA, and even USAC or WAR if I wanted to travel. 80 shows before you even have to think about a freshen and then a trade in program from Pace. I think if I were setting up a new non wing budget series I would either go with one of the following options - 305 racesaver, 604 crate, or the Ct525 with the Knoxville spacer. 604 crate is going to be the least expensive, followed by the Racesaver, and then the 525 when you are talking new motors. Other considerations would be if you want the option to use the motor in winged divisions and different classes where the 305 and 525 are going to have more options there. As far as starters, don't do it as it will cause nothing but headaches for the teams. Up here every team is required to have or to arrange a 4 wheeler to start them. 500cc and above wheelers can start all these.

I know your right, the CT525 is more powerful on the dyno than the RS305, but from an observation POV the 305 cars seem to accelerate better and cost about a 1/3 to 1/2 as much as the Sprint CT525 from Pace. Requiring 4 wheelers sounds much more expensive than a starter/battery. The 604 is a possibility, $7200 sprint ready from Pace I think, but the CT525 even though I think its great, is more than I could sell to these people I'm sure. I get it I'm tampering with tradition, but I don't see any other way. All you guys are from sprint occupied territory, I live in a foreign country with no infrastructure and speaking a different language. I think the RS305 is gonna hold the most promise and allow for the most opportunity. The Elite Non-wing RS305 guys are 3-4 states away in TX and the Winged Racesaver guys are in the Carolinas(mainly NC), but we'll just have to see. Anybody ever tried putting injection on a GM602?


From Pace Performance:
CT525 $15950 race ready w/controller
GM602 $7850 race ready w/o headers.
GM604 $7200 race ready w/o carb or headers.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
Hey I get it, 410 is the e-ching. I don't disagree. Whats funny is you mentioned my plan as, "dumbing down" the sprint makes it an "Emod", that's funny because we don't have those either... Your assertion that I'm attempting to dumb down sprints is accurate, I want it to be as "plug n play" as possible, I want to erase any fears, but maintain the core excitement I've discovered in non-wing sprints. I'm a 30 year DLM convert attempting to convert my countrymen. If we are honest, sprints were not always 410 fire breathing monsters, they became that. A typical saturday night at the races in my area on the GA/SC border is this: 1 class of stk 4 cylinders, 1 class of V8 street stock and 3 classes of Dirt Late Models(GM602 Sportsman, GM604 Crates & Steel Head 358 Limited Late). Supers on a weekly basis died out 10+ years ago. Racing here is in decline, people don't go to watch as much as they did, the economy has never really recovered since 2008. I've started listening to a lot of sprint car podcasts like, JackSlash, WFOpenwheel and Dirt Nation to try and learn as much as I can. Funny thing is on every podcast they mention how important it is to convert the DLM/Modified crowd to sprints, well your talking to one, but down here we are as dedicated to Dirt Late Model as the clay is hard in July. I know these people, I know what confuses and scares them from looking into sprint cars and I'm doing the best i can to get them to dip a toe in the pool. I know if I can ever get it started and show people what I've seen, it'll catch like fire, but telling them they need to build 410 sprints as a place to start would be absurd. You guys have been in this stuff for decades, its the norm, but its alien technology looking in from the outside. I see now why those before me gave up trying to get sprints to work down here.

It can be done. The UMSS Traditional Sprint Series started with an exhibition year in 2011 with 4 of us building cars. I had never even sat in a sprint car prior to buying one and took me forever to figure out where the springs and panhard bar was on that thing :). 2012 I think we had 7 cars. The history is explained on the website at www.umsprints.com. In 2016 we had full fields almost every race and the racing got much more competitive every year. I'm guessing the last time non wing sprint cars ran in this area regularly was 40+ years ago. It has caught on exponentially with increasing car counts and interest. This is also big modified territory in what used to be a dominant late model area. We still hear the complaints of no starters but week after week this class puts on the best racing of all the classes. Don't thing limited non wing sprints can't put on good races go check out some of the videos on the website.

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
Hey I get it, 410 is the e-ching. I don't disagree. Whats funny is you mentioned my plan as, "dumbing down" the sprint makes it an "Emod", that's funny because we don't have those either... Your assertion that I'm attempting to dumb down sprints is accurate, I want it to be as "plug n play" as possible, I want to erase any fears, but maintain the core excitement I've discovered in non-wing sprints. I'm a 30 year DLM convert attempting to convert my countrymen. If we are honest, sprints were not always 410 fire breathing monsters, they became that. A typical saturday night at the races in my area on the GA/SC border is this: 1 class of stk 4 cylinders, 1 class of V8 street stock and 3 classes of Dirt Late Models(GM602 Sportsman, GM604 Crates & Steel Head 358 Limited Late). Supers on a weekly basis died out 10+ years ago. Racing here is in decline, people don't go to watch as much as they did, the economy has never really recovered since 2008. I've started listening to a lot of sprint car podcasts like, JackSlash, WFOpenwheel and Dirt Nation to try and learn as much as I can. Funny thing is on every podcast they mention how important it is to convert the DLM/Modified crowd to sprints, well your talking to one, but down here we are as dedicated to Dirt Late Model as the clay is hard in July. I know these people, I know what confuses and scares them from looking into sprint cars and I'm doing the best i can to get them to dip a toe in the pool. I know if I can ever get it started and show people what I've seen, it'll catch like fire, but telling them they need to build 410 sprints as a place to start would be absurd. You guys have been in this stuff for decades, its the norm, but its alien technology looking in from the outside. I see now why those before me gave up trying to get sprints to work down here.

I didn't say turn them into Emods, I said an Emod (or something comparable) would've faster...
And true they weren't always 410's but they were always the fastest at the track...
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your enthusiasm with racing no matter what the class, I was just never one to sugar coat things

the problem with the self starting cars is the expense and the weight. When I first got into sprints there was talk of putting starters in them, if they had passed that rule I would probably have sold out and gone 600 racing.

My big concern with starters is not the weight, as much as it is with the damage it can cause, in order to make it work, you have to be able to retard the ignition, that you need to have to get the performance out of the engine, otherwise you sit there with the starter on the track, and maybe a very expensive part of the engine attached to it, you take a high compression racing engine with quite a bit of advance cranked in to begin with, then add the cylinders having an above average amount of fuel in them, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Jmho! Bob

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

I live in fender country until the last couple of years when sprints started making a comeback. Sprint teams have a means to start the cars so that really isn't an issue before the race or during reds. On spins the local wreckers and track vehicles will be able to handle it if you just give them a little heads up on push starting. I am sure any of the group that pushes in Indiana will be willing to help you out there.

So how much are you planning to spend on this experiment? That is building 2 cars, getting them to the track etc......

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by motorhead748:
I didn't say turn them into Emods, I said an Emod (or something comparable) would've faster...
And true they weren't always 410's but they were always the fastest at the track...
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your enthusiasm with racing no matter what the class, I was just never one to sugar coat things

I appreciate all your input and I apologize if our wires got crossed. Actually from a power to weight ratio of an RS305 sprint vs our Limited Lates, they may still be the fastest thing on the track, down here. I have no idea what an E-mod is, LOL.

Originally Posted by Jcpelly:
It can be done. The UMSS Traditional Sprint Series started with an exhibition year in 2011 with 4 of us building cars. I had never even sat in a sprint car prior to buying one and took me forever to figure out where the springs and panhard bar was on that thing :). 2012 I think we had 7 cars. The history is explained on the website at www.umsprints.com. In 2016 we had full fields almost every race and the racing got much more competitive every year. I'm guessing the last time non wing sprint cars ran in this area regularly was 40+ years ago. It has caught on exponentially with increasing car counts and interest. This is also big modified territory in what used to be a dominant late model area. We still hear the complaints of no starters but week after week this class puts on the best racing of all the classes. Don't thing limited non wing sprints can't put on good races go check out some of the videos on the website.

Your story is encouraging and worth considering and like I said I'm gathering info, looking at what works and what doesn't. They introduced the CT525 in late models down here about 5 or 6 years ago, gave it a weight break and a taller spoiler and in the right conditions(Dry Slick) with an above average driver(Ronnie Johnson) it was wining some(something like 5 or 6) races against the open comp supers. Several series adopted rules to allow it and the future looked bright and the prospect of reviving weekly Super Late model seemed possible... Within 1 year the Open Comp drivers had lobbied hard enough that ALL the series rolled back the rules and put the CT525 on even par with open comp engines, same weight, same spoiler, just has a 350HP deficit to Open Comp.

Next it looked like maybe Limited Late would be the home for the CT525, but no, fears of traction control hidden in the controller and absurd rumors of whiz kids with lap tops hacking the box and telling the engine exactly how much power to make resulted in further rules removing the coil packs/controller and adding #100 of weight to the front of the car as well as a 100HP deficit in power to the steel head cars... So now if you want to race a CT525 and not get run out of town on a rail you have to travel with either Nesmith or FAST series.

The CT525 is a great engine and I myself don't have irrational fears of traction control and Millennial's using apps on smart phones to adjust the HP to whatever number they want, but some less sophisticated folks do, sadly. The reason we have a 602 Sportsman Late model class is because so many racers became convinced that "Blue Printing" a 604 gave it 85-100HP more than the out of the box ones, even with a prominent engine builder dynoing every single one to show them. Didn't matter, they wanted blue printing(rebuilding to spec) outlawed, but when they couldn't get that, they split and started a 602 only class with no rebuilding allowed, ever. I'm so frustrated I have trouble mustering the enthusiasm to even go most weeks... Then I discovered Non-Wing sprints on the Dirty 30 show and I was reinvigorated. I don't know what the end solution will be.

Originally Posted by Rhody:
the problem with the self starting cars is the expense and the weight. When I first got into sprints there was talk of putting starters in them, if they had passed that rule I would probably have sold out and gone 600 racing.

Check out these videos, they all have starters, transmissions and batteries.
North East Wingless Sprints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyu18WQruP4

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
My big concern with starters is not the weight, as much as it is with the damage it can cause, in order to make it work, you have to be able to retard the ignition, that you need to have to get the performance out of the engine, otherwise you sit there with the starter on the track, and maybe a very expensive part of the engine attached to it, you take a high compression racing engine with quite a bit of advance cranked in to begin with, then add the cylinders having an above average amount of fuel in them, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Jmho! Bob

Is an RS305 that high on compression? When I first got started working on DLM's back in 86' we used mags, w/starters without issue...
Check out these videos, they all have starters, transmissions and batteries.
North East Wingless Sprints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyu18WQruP4

Originally Posted by oldfan49:
I live in fender country until the last couple of years when sprints started making a comeback. Sprint teams have a means to start the cars so that really isn't an issue before the race or during reds. On spins the local wreckers and track vehicles will be able to handle it if you just give them a little heads up on push starting. I am sure any of the group that pushes in Indiana will be willing to help you out there.

I'm in Georgia, No Sprints. I'm planning to be patient zero.

Originally Posted by motorhead748:
So how much are you planning to spend on this experiment? That is building 2 cars, getting them to the track etc......

Why? A budget as of yet has not been established, that's why I'm asking so many questions. Are you of the opinion I shouldn't bother?

Why? A budget as of yet has not been established, that's why I'm asking so many questions. Are you of the opinion I shouldn't bother?

No, not at all. I'd say go for it if that's what you want. But I will add that I owned, drove and paid about 98% of the bills on my own car for 20 years. I was able to win some races & track championships on a budget that most would consider not enough to race hobby stocks. So I am acutely aware of the expense involved. It's just hard for me to fathom putting 2 cars together and let people play in them in hopes it will spur some interest, all while knowing that if I did get a track interested the purse is more than likely going to be minimal.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
I appreciate all your input and I apologize if our wires got crossed. Actually from a power to weight ratio of an RS305 sprint vs our Limited Lates, they may still be the fastest thing on the track, down here. I have no idea what an E-mod is, LOL.


Your story is encouraging and worth considering and like I said I'm gathering info, looking at what works and what doesn't. They introduced the CT525 in late models down here about 5 or 6 years ago, gave it a weight break and a taller spoiler and in the right conditions(Dry Slick) with an above average driver(Ronnie Johnson) it was wining some(something like 5 or 6) races against the open comp supers. Several series adopted rules to allow it and the future looked bright and the prospect of reviving weekly Super Late model seemed possible... Within 1 year the Open Comp drivers had lobbied hard enough that ALL the series rolled back the rules and put the CT525 on even par with open comp engines, same weight, same spoiler, just has a 350HP deficit to Open Comp.

Next it looked like maybe Limited Late would be the home for the CT525, but no, fears of traction control hidden in the controller and absurd rumors of whiz kids with lap tops hacking the box and telling the engine exactly how much power to make resulted in further rules removing the coil packs/controller and adding #100 of weight to the front of the car as well as a 100HP deficit in power to the steel head cars... So now if you want to race a CT525 and not get run out of town on a rail you have to travel with either Nesmith or FAST series.

The CT525 is a great engine and I myself don't have irrational fears of traction control and Millennial's using apps on smart phones to adjust the HP to whatever number they want, but some less sophisticated folks do, sadly. The reason we have a 602 Sportsman Late model class is because so many racers became convinced that "Blue Printing" a 604 gave it 85-100HP more than the out of the box ones, even with a prominent engine builder dynoing every single one to show them. Didn't matter, they wanted blue printing(rebuilding to spec) outlawed, but when they couldn't get that, they split and started a 602 only class with no rebuilding allowed, ever. I'm so frustrated I have trouble mustering the enthusiasm to even go most weeks... Then I discovered Non-Wing sprints on the Dirty 30 show and I was reinvigorated. I don't know what the end solution will be.


Check out these videos, they all have starters, transmissions and batteries.
North East Wingless Sprints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyu18WQruP4


Is an RS305 that high on compression? When I first got started working on DLM's back in 86' we used mags, w/starters without issue...
Check out these videos, they all have starters, transmissions and batteries.
North East Wingless Sprints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyu18WQruP4


I'm in Georgia, No Sprints. I'm planning to be patient zero.

Why? A budget as of yet has not been established, that's why I'm asking so many questions. Are you of the opinion I shouldn't bother?

When we started the Traditional Sprint program in 2011 I bought a 2000 dollar Stealth roller and added a 2500 dollar SBC 360 motor I took out of my Wissota superstock, so for less than 5000 you could have a car on the track that would give a taste of what these things are. That is the silver/black/green #1 car in the UMSS videos from 2011. Now as the class has gotten more competitive it would probably cost you in the range of 10,000-15,000 to have a car and engine that can compete up front.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

As far as starters go- keep in mind that mechanical injection does not have squirters like a carb. When cranking the engine, if you try to 'pump the gas' to help it-it just gulps air and no fuel. It can be done by cranking & holding throttle open to get enough fuel, but that is tricky if inexperienced to not get a big rev immediately. Can also crank with throttle open and switch off for a few seconds, than turn switch on-again can be tricky. if it's cold, very easy to flood it and hydraulic the engine or break the starter. Not always as simple & easy as just adding an on board battery & starting mechanism.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

This is indeed a big factor, I've found that by using 2, 12 volt batteries, and hitting the starter with 24v, a start may be accomplished, but don't bet on it, as I said before, with the amount of lead in the advance, you can just as easily detonate an engine, the speed necessary to safely make an engine light off, cannot be done with a starter, it sometimes isn't possible by a push start, if the pusher doesn't get his/her foot in it right away, you could hydraulic the engine, and break it before you get off the push truck, again, JMHO! Bob

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

when we ran midgets we had a quad 4 with a starter.we warmed the engine up, shut it off, put it in gear, pushed the button and it started easily and drove away.i think a crate motor is your answer but I m no expert.we ran midgets at morris ill and they started a sprint class.we ran 2 midgets and the sprint every night.crowds love the v8 sprints and parts are cheap.go for it and keep us posted .good luck

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by motorhead748:
Why? A budget as of yet has not been established, that's why I'm asking so many questions. Are you of the opinion I shouldn't bother?

No, not at all. I'd say go for it if that's what you want. But I will add that I owned, drove and paid about 98% of the bills on my own car for 20 years. I was able to win some races & track championships on a budget that most would consider not enough to race hobby stocks. So I am acutely aware of the expense involved. It's just hard for me to fathom putting 2 cars together and let people play in them in hopes it will spur some interest, all while knowing that if I did get a track interested the purse is more than likely going to be minimal.

I don't know what else to do, maybe attempt to start a club or group and put on some exhibitions. The only reason I pondered building 2 and letting drivers try them out is because that how the "NEWS" guys did it 2 years ago(North East Wingless Sprints). Listen I know most everything about these cars is appalling to diehard Indy Sprint dudes, w/starters, batteries, carburetors and transmissions, but it seems sellable in order to build a sprint car foundation here. Otherwise I don't see another way, people have tried just proposing stuff, but it goes no where. That's why I thought if they could see, feel, touch, drive and ask questions maybe it'd kick things off. I'm not expecting to show up every week with 2 cars and let folks race them(screw that!), but if they want to turn a few laps after the nights racing, maybe thats way.

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Originally Posted by 6565:
As far as starters go- keep in mind that mechanical injection does not have squirters like a carb. When cranking the engine, if you try to 'pump the gas' to help it-it just gulps air and no fuel. It can be done by cranking & holding throttle open to get enough fuel, but that is tricky if inexperienced to not get a big rev immediately. Can also crank with throttle open and switch off for a few seconds, than turn switch on-again can be tricky. if it's cold, very easy to flood it and hydraulic the engine or break the starter. Not always as simple & easy as just adding an on board battery & starting mechanism.

Ah-hah, now thats the kinda info I need, he!! I don't know jack about an injected sprint. Keep the info coming. :6:
I've been on Alky-diggers looking around too. How do they start them tractor pulling things with injection?

Re: Why Fuel Injection?
 

Ok, I've got another question, lets say I drop the whole trans/starter deal, I know that'll make a bunch of folks super happy, how do you guys start the car in the shop to like adjust valves and what not? I mean I guess if you have a bunch of acreage you could push it off in the yard, but...

Recoil starter, ja ever notice how big one guy on the team is! Bob

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights:
Ok, I've got another question, lets say I drop the whole trans/starter deal, I know that'll make a bunch of folks super happy, how do you guys start the car in the shop to like adjust valves and what not? I mean I guess if you have a bunch of acreage you could push it off in the yard, but...

Speaking from personal experience, we rely on friends with a gravel driveway long enough to get it running. In the past our shop was way out in the country and we could start it on the road without the neighbors or sheriff getting mad, although that did once lead to a rather tragic incident involving a border collie. I'm not sure how other teams deal with this, I guess just resourcefulness and relationships if they don't own a suitable location.

I seldom started the car at home..