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T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in cars
Got this of T-Mez Facebook page.
Look at top of cage. In the wake of the Bryan Clauson accident. Glad to see a racer taking extra steps to keep the driver safe. Should these bars should be mandatory in Sprint Cars, Midgets, and other open wheel cars? |
In my opinion, it can make it harder to get out quickly in certain instances and also harder for rescue workers to get a back board under you, etc.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Not sure it should be mandatory but the racing community needs to see if there was anything we can learn from his crash. I have no idea what kind of shape the car was in after the crash but I have seen some pictures of BC in the car with questionable headroom... as I have seen with many other sprint and midget drivers. In my opinion the Tall Cage cars should be the standard height... As a driver myself I would never strap into a car if I had questionable headroom.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I'm not sure what pictures you're looking at but all the ones I've seen of the Dooling/Kunz 63 look like Bryan is well down in the cockpit. I'm not sure many people really know where the car took the hit or if a halo would have helped.
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After a certain point safety needs to be left up to drivers/car owners. Obviously good up to date gear, belts and seats need to be a necessity but halos and stuff like that? Optional.
As a driver I don't feel comfortable with a halo at all and quiet honestly I don't even like my left side extended arm guard. Also don't believe we need to be speculating on how/what happened to Bryan and what should/needs to be done at this time. |
I will put this out there for comments to see what others think. #1 what is the lighting like in Belleville? BC was in accident on Friday as well, almost same area of the track as Saturday night. These midgets are so fast on those banks. #2 was the red flag and lights on quick enough to stop the other drivers? Some drivers are so focused on racing they don't see these in time to stop or slow down. I see it every week.
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When you enter a turn sidways and there is someone there you are comitted there is nothing you do. Bellville is a very fast place.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
One, I'll never say its too early to discuss safety but it should be done out of respect.
I think Burton bars will help in some instances light impact and most likely would help in keeping a wheel or other object out of the cockpit or the drivers head area. But Im not convinced this would have prevented BC's. This was a massive impact at IMHO the weakest area of a sprint car. The hoop of the cage. there is a video testing Sprint Car impacts, One from the front, one on the cage top. That video tells everything I need to know, that a COMPLETE REDESIGN of the Cage area is needed Either higher or by Triangulating the support of it.or both. You'll notice these cars are made up of all kinds of triangle. But there is none in the cage area. Just little ones on the corners of it. The car is made to give a little. Ive seen head ons into concrete walls where it will warp the car and make it look like a zig zag. But this is not crushed like I see the hoop area in that video test. Im not saying you shouldn't get the drivers cover bars. But I think we either need to redesign the car or have some sort of drivers cage inside the car similar to NHRA. top Fuel or both. Here is a link to that testing video. I left the link so you have to click it to actually go to the video will not stream here. You will see that those bars would have been useless in this kind of impact. The video is graphic and uses a test dummy. Watch only if you can stomach it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOsoNGwDTcg |
Racing is dangerous .... We all know this.... Let's not butcher our beautiful sport with more mandates and rules....
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Originally Posted by chasinracin2: |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Not mandatory????
Jerry |
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Charles, there's actually a local guy running a "one off" gf1 copy frame with the nhra style drivers enclose running down here in Florida. I'll see if I can find a picture for you
Edit, found some pics |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Originally Posted by xoxide: Something like this but even a little taller https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;...s.avg._.0616tb |
Some of this sounds like when the sport went from single hoop roll bars to full cage. In my opinion some sort of full containment cage is needed and maybe more open sides for getting in an out of the car. BC's accident isn't the first time a car took a direct impact to the top of the cage. And most of those types of hits wound up with driver injuries.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
We learn every time. And every safety improvement has saved countless lives. Mandatory anything, I think I'd leave to drivers. If you made even one major modification mandatory for 17 you'd be starting the year with less than half the cars racing now.
You know the story, You do it knowing the risk and that up to the ultimate price. This is not to say however some changes or improvements can't be made. I remember Tony Beaber racing in the late 90s early 2000s with hoops over the cockpit. That car raced until about four years ago at eldora. It was one of the most overbuilt sprinters I ever seen and we used to joke the reason Him and Link ran so well at the always slick in the 90s early 00s Burg was because they weighed 400pds more than the rest of the cars. |
Originally Posted by xoxide: |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Originally Posted by kinser: |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Originally Posted by xoxide: |
Flashing yellow inside the cars that are triggered when the caution comes out cost is about 200.00. We had them in the new generation silver crown cars Also tracks that are considered to be high speed in car radios so u can be told stay high or low and so u will know where a car is stopped on the track Just some things we already use
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Fish, No need to quote my own words, point out where I was speculating about anything.....
All I did was show Charles that it has been done already If your comment wasn't directed towards me then disregard |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I thought these bars should be on every car till a friend sent me photos showing how they caused the cage to collapse, maybe a x pattern so cage uprights can help support them.
Yes it can limit teh driver from getting out quickly, but I've seen these cars getting enclosed more & more Had a discussion w/ a driver telling him his head didn't clear the cage, he went out & crashed jamming his neck & knocked out, off to the hospital Talking to drivers about safety is like nailing Jello to a tree:deadhorse: |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
The only way to make racing 100% safe is to not race at all, to not be at the race track at all. It was a freak, tragic accident and the entire racing community cannot go crazy about what should or shouldn't be mandated. Just like the Justin Wilson IndyCar wreck, sadly weird things happen.
When the time comes for God to bring you home, he's going to bring you home. Bryan went out doing what he loved, that we can be assured of and thankful for. I never want to see a driver injured...I'm always one to hold my breath when a car gets the wrong way. I really do hope some kind of safety improvement can come out of this, but it needs to be at the discretion of the driver/team owner if they will use them or not. #BCForever |
Let's get back to the days when the driver handled the race car. IMO half mile tracks allow way to much speed for such a lightweight high horsepower racecars.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
We have been running halo bars since 2 weeks after Josh's accident in 2013 on every car we have owned. I would never let my son run without one but I do agree that it probably would not have saved BC. The force of that impact was way beyond the limits of one single bar over the drivers head.
Unfortunately, our cars have been upside down about 3 times in the past 3 seasons and I have inspected the halo bars every time a flip has occurred and EVERY SINGLE TIME the halo bar has impacted either the track or the wall and is really scratched up. As a parent and car owner, I can tell you from experience I am very pleased that the drivers helmet has never been hit or scratched with anything during a flip. However, I know this is not enough to protect a driver at a very high speed of impact. Also, I have seen no evidence that these halo bars make it harder to get out of the car. And if the driver is gonna have to be put on a back board the track should be prepared to make 3 cuts and remove the halo bar. I would think it could be cut off within 1 minute with a good battery powered sawzall......I will take that trade-off. I have watched the dummy crash test video, seen both the crash videos from Josh and BC accidents and I do believe the only/best answer is more Research and Development is needed in the cockpit area of non-wing open wheel cars (Sprints, Midgets, Silver Crown). NHRA and Tractor Pullers understand that a huge cage is needed to protect their drivers, but somehow, circle track racers are very resistant to mandatory safety changes. The protection of the drivers is way more important than the looks of the car, or the newest, coolest looking fiberglass body which encloses the cockpit. I see people posting on this thread with quotes like "We shouldn't change anything" or "No safety improvements should be mandatory" and I have to ask these questions to them: For drivers - "Is your 5-point harness tight??" and/or "Did you strap your full face helmet on?" or "Why do you wear a HANS device (or similar item)??"....There was a time back in the day when none of these safety improvements were mandatory or even available, and I am sure there were people back then against those changes as well.. I am 100% in favor for making safety improvements in conjunction with people who are educated on this subject,,,,NHRA, Tractor Pullers, Car Builders, Crash Test Folks, etc...what ever it takes to make the right changes that will help the driver the next time. I know the risk cannot be eliminated from racing in any form, but let's be honest, the chance of a horrific crash is quite a bit higher in open wheel cars, especially the non-wing version..anyone who don't see that needs to pull their head out of the sand. Perhaps one organization that should be contacted for help with this subject by somebody in the know is John Force Racing...They were in charge of the "Eric Medlen Project", the following quote is directly from their website discussing Eric Medlen and his crash back in 2007. [I]"Teammates loved him; rivals, too, which is why, when he succumbed to injuries following a testing accident in March, 2007, it left those in the sport collectively gasping for breath. The initial outpouring of grief quickly was followed by a universal show of support that resulted in the creation of The Eric Medlen Project, the thrust of which was the design of a safer race car and creation of a safer environment in which to compete. Toward that end, project manager John Medlen has worked with Ford Motor Company, the NHRA, SFI, chassis builder Murf McKinney and a host of others in an unprecedented display of bi-partisan cooperation. The program paid its first dividend in 2007 when initial changes were credited with saving the life of team owner John Force when he crashed at Ennis, Texas. Although he broke bones in his hands and feet, he had no serious head or neck injuries. The improvements that made his survival possible included a wider roll cage, extra padding within it, the switch from five-point to seven-point harnesses and a head-and-neck restraint system that limits side-to-side movement as well as front-to back. It’s a legacy with which the younger Medlen would have been pleased". These folks took the steps necessary to make things a little safer for drag racers back in 2007 after losing a high profile driver, it is now time for sprint car drivers/owners/builders to do something similar...I am sure I will have some bashers on here, but I bet almost everyone who bashes me won't be strapping their own kid in a sprint car this weekend either...I understand the risk but that doesn't mean I have to like it...in today's world, there is technology out there that can help our drivers be safer than in the past. |
Medlens crash showed that normal pipe insulation foam did not return to it original state when it was compressed it stayed compressed and as the helmet continued to batter the cage from side to side the helmet was striking the cage itself as the foam was useless after the first hit, the oscillation caused the helmet to rapidly strike the cage side to side..
Believe me i am no gore seeker i have seen plenty of the worst n my lifetime, but i do look at footage so my soul can understand the situation and look for an answer to a particular tragedy. I rarely discuss such incidents with anyone but my wife who loves this sport as much as i do, i dont even talk about it with car owners that r close... Mandatory???? If science proves a benefit then yes.. |
A great fabricator, Jon Stanbrough, told me when you add more bars, etc. To the cage it weakens it. I trust Jon as a friend, a man that has done great work on our cars, and where we bought our first Sprint Car from in the Winter of 2000.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I have a spike sprint car and the XXX halo that comes unwelded with those cars fits pretty good (I had it laying around the shop). Some minor joint clean up and it was ready for TIG welding.
Since this is turning into a generic safety thread, I would agree maybe we should add a vertical support tube under the halo ends-like the silver crown cars are doing on those long cages. Beaber's big Eldora wreck a couple years ago did cause the halo to bend the cage sides down-but he had a pretty tall halo on that car. That makes the halo ends attach more vertically than the lower profile halos. I know he won't race without one. Maybe Tony will chime in here. I am a little intrigued by Jeff Swindell's seat mounting system he had a few years ago. Was supposed to be a universal type mount that all the chassis makers could use and he thought it was safer as well. I think the chassis companies will make cars with that style seat mounts if you ask. I have never seen very many pics or a car up close, but maybe that would be a start to being able to have a consistent driver location/mount setup to then build better cages around that. Also makes transferring seats from car to car easy-no more drilling holes for every car. If anyone has experience with this or pics of it-I'd love to find out more about it. I liked Charlie Fisher's car mentioned earlier with wrap around bars from the 90's. Others have done similar, as did I several years ago. At some point the cars become too stiff, but if everyone has it-that doesn't matter. |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Originally Posted by xoxide: |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I agree, it should be the driver's decision as to whether a halo, or anything else for that matter, should be ran on their car. That being said, I know the 3r car that Cummins drives has had a halo on it for quite some time, and his family owned car did as well. The bottom line, when it's your time to leave this world behind, it isn't going to matter if you're wrapped in bubble wrap, the good lord is gonna take ya! Might as well go out doing what you love to do. #RIPBC
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There is no way to make this level of racing 100 percent safe. That being said, it shouldn't stop people from trying. When we were running, as the owner, I felt it was my responsibility to do everything possible to make the car as safe as possible. Let's face it, most drivers will jump into any car for the opportunity to drive, especially the younger ones.
At some point you have to decide if the risk is worth the reward. For me it wasn't. The sight of my son barrel rolling through turn four at Lawrenceburg was enough for me. I'm just thankful for the Butler Built seat, HANS device and Spike Chassis that allowed TJ to walk away from that wreck. Thoughts and prayers to the Clausen family. |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Its kind of simple; It was at night, dusty, poor lighting, And everybody want`s to run a dark race car. Perfect recipe for disaster !
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I agree if you try and make one part stronger it's still going to find a weaker point so what if the complete cage collapse down , t-metz car photo you see doesn't even have a right side safety bar think with the 3 point halo will make the cockpit sides weaker on a hard impact that we have seen something is going to give I hope it's not the rear uprights that the seats are bolted to
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I once had this example shared with me..
Take 2 almost exact same cars. The first one is 100% safe. The 2nd one is 1/10 of a second faster, but no where near as safe. The racers will always pick the faster car. That's just a part of the sport. The bottom line is, although tragedies still happen, this sport has never been safer in its entire existence. Keeping things in perspective in the wake of a tragedy is sometimes very hard to do. |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I'd like to know how it's disrespectful to discuss safety at any time.
High speeds equal high impacts, I do remember someone stating that they were scared to death just watching at Bellville. The irony of it all is that the actual racing is safer and much better on a bullring, I'm a firm believer high top speeds detract from the racing on a dirt track most all the time. Fire isn't my biggest concern, getting hit in the cage while upside down on the track is. Some accidents and deaths are unavoidable. Every time someone dies in a car people want to add more safety features, if you want totally safe racing outlaw all racing. I'm sure theres people somewhere working on that right now. I'm different then most but in my opinion it's no worse or better being killed in a race car then the thousands killed on our roads every year. Its seems anymore folks are either too "respectful" or not "respectful" at all. |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
As far as them making drag racing safer after losing a top driver, they also made the racing less enjoyable for the fans and many of the racers. Shortening the run down from a 1/4 mile took out a lot of the drama, the nitro cars were just starting to stretch they're legs at the end of the 1/4 mile.
What NHRA did is THE typical knee jerk reaction, just what sprintcar racing doesn't need. |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I thought all USAC competitors were under the eye of a master spotter?
Having said that, there is no fault here with BC's accident. As much as I would like to point the finger, I can't. Racing is dangerous and We have lost a great driver and person. sucks. |
Backitin,
I don't believe anuone said it was disrespectful to discuss safety at any time. It would be in poor taste to speculate about what happened/what could've prevented what happened to Bryan at this time. |
Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I saw the top of the cage as it was sitting there on the ground after it had been cut off by the jaws of life. It did not look like it was damaged at all except for a small dent at the visor area on the left side.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
I look at it as some things including some sports and some racing are inherently dangerous. You can only go so far and not hurt the spirit, the heart of the sport. Midgets and sprints are what they are. If you arnt someone who loves the cars and the whole ball of wax including setbacks, danger and success you wouldn't be in one in the first place. These guys don't just wake up one day in the seat of a high caliber midget or sprintcar. They race for years, struggle at times and see friends lost. I love'em all. From the smallest local track to someplace like Kokomo. They are one of the last places real tough guys and heros exist.
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Re: T-Mez: Got this off his FB page. Should be Mandatory in
Originally Posted by xoxide: |
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