410 ci engines???????????
 

:checkered: WHY DO YOU THINK YOU NEED A 410CI. $ 40.000 TO $60.000 ENGINE IN A SPRINT CAR???? THE BEST RACING IN 50 YEARS WAS USAC SPRINTS WITH 305 CI. ENGINES!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST ASK AJ PARNELLI MARIO THE UNSERS BETTENHAUSEN DICKSON PANCHO BEALE KUNZMAN PARSONS (ECT) AND THE NON-USAC CARS INDIANA CARS RAN A 327 4 BOLT MAIN PINK ROD ENGINE THEY ALL GOT AT THERE CHEVY DEALER FOR ABOUT $400 AND THEY PUT THERE CAM - INJECTORS AND FRONT DRIVE ON AND RACED ALL YEAR! I KNOW I WAS THERE!:checkered:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Duke people run the 410 because thats what USAC mandates in the rulebook. When or if USAC ever changes the 410 rule then away goes the 410. Thats just a guess on my part of course.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

sounds like my bomber motor :O::action-smiley-049:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

the reason people run a 410, is because that is the max allowed cui, i hate to break it to you guys that live in the glory days but the cars they ran back then wouldnt stand a chance with a 10 lap head start in the 25 lap feature most nights, technology has advanced to the point that even non wing cars are hooked up enough we car use all we can get

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

OK WHY DO THE CHAMP CARS RUN A 355 CI. WHY NOT THE MAGIC 410?:checkered:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

YOUR RIGHT THATS WHY THE CARS OF TODAY RUN LAPS LAST YEAR AT THE 4 CROWN IN 19 SEC! WE RUN SUN AFTERNOON SHOWS AT ELDORA 1N THE 60S WITH 305 IN 17 SEC.!! AND TOM BGELOW RUN 15 SEC LAPS AT WINCHESTER WITH A 305! THE GLORY DAYS! DID YOU SEE THEM?:moon:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

sounds like a spec engine?

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

“But, believe it or not in 1980 we had a thousand horsepower from a 560 inch big block”
=Ron Shaver

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

this is qualifying times from what i believe was the last usac race at eldora....

1. Tracy Hines, 21, Stewart-15.712; 2. Jerry Coons Jr., 69, Dynamics-15.774; 3. Damion Gardner, 71, Leffler-15.808; 4. Dustin Morgan, 11D, Walker/Guiducci-15.831; 5. Brady Short, 2B, 2B Racing-15.833; 6. Levi Jones, 20, Stewart-15.911; 7. Brady Bacon, 99, Kahne-15.918; 8. Robert Ballou, 81, MPHG-15.936; 9. Jon Stanbrough, 53, Fox-15.947; 10. Ricky Stenhouse, 11, Walker/Guiducci-15.994; 11. Daron Clayton, 92, Clayton-16.027; 12. Hunter Scheurenberg, 10T, R & B-16.045; 13. Chris Windom, 17, Windom-16.081; 14. Shane Cottle, 10E, Edison-16.198; 15. Kevin Sindell, 79, Kahne-16.240; 16. Darren Hagen, 67, Kunz-16.294; 17. Jesse Hockett, 75, VKCC-16.367; 18. Dave Darland, 44, Pace-16.439; 19. Mat Neely, 17N, Neely-16.484; 20. Bill Rose, 6, Rose-16.487; 21. Mike Brecht, 97x, Seeling-16.550; 22. Shane Hollingsworth, 10, R & B-16.565; 23. Ron Dennis, 32, Dennis-16.609; 24. John Heydenriech, 57B, Burkey-16.696; 25. Jimmy Light, 23, Light-16.747; 26. Bret Mellenberndt, 97, Mellenberndt-16.802; 27. Danny Williams Jr., 6m, Melchi-16.914; 28. Mike Miller, 320, Kessel-17.126; 29. Don Droud Jr., 2, Reid-17.746; 30. Donnie Ray Crawford, 67k, Kunz-17.786; 31. Cody White, 26, White-17.890; 32. Aron McFadden, 23m, MAC Motorsports-18.542


I dont see a 19 second lap here and i dont see where 17 is really that fast either...

And these are the top 10 qual times from the last winchester race...

Marc Jessup, Kunz 67k, 14.281; 2. Darren Hagen, Kunz 67, 14.383; 3. Brian Tyler, Contos 4, 14.554; 4. Mike Murgoitio, Walker/Guiducci 11, 14.660; 5. Dave Steele, Dynamics 69, 14.678; 6. Dave Darland, Pace 44, 14.804; 7. Tracy Hines, Stewart 21, 14.808; 8. Eric Gordon, Bowman 51, 14.853; 9. Levi Jones, Stewart 20, 14.902; 10. Chris Windom, Windom 17, 14.952

um so tom bigelow would have been pretty good today.... but my point is still proven

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Not to nitpick too much but those were from last season. Times though are basically the same. Times at Winchester have pretty much been the same for the last 6 seasons or so despite the advanced engine technology. And at Eldora lap times always depend on the track conditions. Track record in 1998 was a 15.321 now its 14.7 something and that was set 2 years ago. I would venture to say that its going to be quite a while before we see a 14.7 at Eldora again, that was all luck due to all the rain. The last USAC race fast time at Eldora was Levi Jones with like a 15.5 and third was in the 15.6 range and thats about all I can remember.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

yea your right after i looked at it i realized it was a year old... still served the purpose, and im not only talking engine technology, im also talking tires, shock, ect... we by no means have re-invented the wheel since then but we have made it better JMO

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

C'mon, Duke's still living in the past; he's watching his gasoline-powered B&W TV while typing on his IBM Selectric typewriter.......He's so anti-progress that he could be called Amish!

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Duke, you opened a can of worms here. The guys don't "need" $60,000 410's. They want them. The glory days of the neighborhood mechanic putting together a sprint car and being competitive are long gone. Cherish those days....but they are gone. Now, we've got snot-nosed-Daddy's-got-a-trust-fund and I'm going to burn it up as fast as I can kids running sprint cars. And by God they're fast! Most have never worked a job. And, that's okay. It's just the progression that sprint car racing has taken. There's no going back now.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

So what happens when Nascar slams the door. Chevy, Mopar and Open Joist go bye bye and the trust funds are gone? Whats left? A class that nobody can run?

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

I SAID LAST YEARS 4 CROWN READ THEM TO ME! I'VE SEEN SEVERAL TIMES THE 355 CHAMPDIRT CARS ARE FASTER THEN THE 410 SPRINTS AT ELDORA! HELL I RUN 16 SEC LAPS AT ELDORA NITE RACES WITH A $5000 355! IN THE 70S! SPEED DOES NOT MAKE GOOD RACING! SO YOUR 410 AT WINCHESTER GOES DOWN THE STRAIGHTAWAY FASTER! BIG DEAL! IT YOU WANT SPEED GO TO BONNEVILLE! IF THE SPEED DON'T KILL YOU THE COST OF THE PARTS WILL!!!!! PS WHERE IS YOUR NAME IN THESE TIME TRAILS???????????:checkered:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

WHY DO YOU USE ALL CAPS?

If you read the Doug Wolfgang book, he goes into detail of his feelings on the 410 vs 355/360/350 motors. Very interesting comments.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

YOUR RIGHT ON! HOW CAN YOU AFFORD TO RUN A $40000 ENGINE FOR $ 1300 TO WIN?:kookoo:kookoo:kookoo THEN TIRES FUEL PARTS GAS PIT PASS PAY A DRIVER 40 -50% YOU LOSE WHEN YOU WIN THE FEATURE! JUST ASK THE FOX BROTHERS!:checkered:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Charles, that's a great question, and it all has me concerned, but sprint car racing has survived good times and bad, and I don't see it going away anytime soon. The trust funds are deep, and like history has shown, when someone runs out of money, or decides to hang up his helmet, someone new straps in. It's going to be alright.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Hoee so but even the days of multi small sponsorships being able to sustain a team are getting tough.

I've seen the midgets all but dry up in the IN-OH area. I certainly want sprints to hang around or all we have left is tin tops but wait, The LM's are showing their signs of being in trouble too.

Chuck

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

OK, you can put me in the dinosaur class with Duke, but I don't think big motors, big money, and big tires makes better racing. It only makes a little more speed for a lot more money.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

HOW TRUE!:checkered:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

If you want to run a spec engine series, I believe that Legend Cars and the Ford Focus Midget Series are still accepting new competitors. There are many series available for those that want to run spec engines. :rolleyes:

The guys typically running for $1,300 to win a weekly show are generally not running a $40,000 to $60,000 motor. The motors they are running might have cost that brand new, but the locals are usually running a motor they bought from a traveling team (Outlaw, All Star, USAC) for between one half and one third the cost of a new engine. When we converted to Mopar we sold our 410 Chevy’s for anywhere between $12,500 and $18,000. They were all fresh, had no junk parts and produced between 765 and 790 HP. These engines could be run 20 to 25 nights before needing to be freshened and were still winning races and running up front with USAC the prior season.

The other wildcard on these spec sprint car engines is drivability. You can produce big Dyno numbers but many times you will sacrifice drivability. We found out long ago that unless you are at a track that you can flat foot, drivability is much more important than HP. Having a smooth torque curve will beat raw HP every time on a slick race track.

That being said a Sprint Car will whip a Silver Crown car every time in a head to head race. I have been to many 4 crowns in which the SC cars were running up to 2 seconds faster per lap in the feature but that was due to the rubber laid on the dirt track NOT the 355 engines. If a sprint car were on the same track we would be at least .5 seconds per lap faster.

Why don’t they run 410s in SC cars? Because to make HP takes fuel and most mechanics cannot tune their 410 engines for the fuel mileage required to run 100 miles. Thanks to advances in engine efficiency, it can be done safely but I don’t think you will see it happen with the weakened state of SC racing right now.

Rob Hoffman

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

i guess you don't like champ dirt car racing?

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Duke is right about one thing the racing was better on the pavement back then. I think the lower horsepower made for better racing. But I do not agree with the spec engine rule for dirt sprint car racing. I still think if your spending 40,000.00 on a sprint engine you are crazy. Why not go buy a used one for more than half off. I have won more races with my old Don Ott that I bought off of a wing team and has less than 800 hp. I still think people are hurting themselves come race time with these killer engines unless they have TC which is what we need out of the sport more than spec engine rules. I also think that non wing racing is as good as it ever was from a fans perspective. I still believe a spec engine class would work for a support sprint car class.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Not questioning your knowledge but wouldn't you agree that the 410 is a spec engine that is unsupervised? The whole meaing of a limit is a spec to me and just a opinion that it alone drives up the cost just the same as if 454 were the limit then money would be spent hand over fist to get as much out of that too.

Respectfully
Chuck

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

The reason they don't run 410's in the Silver Crown Cars is because they won't make it 100 laps. They would have to do like Indy Cars and qualify with a good motor and change it to an enderance motor that would go 100 laps.
Still $18,000 for a used motor is still alot more that the $8,000 to $10,000 price of the spec motor.
Any of the old timers will tell you that a 350 ci will last forever no matter how hard you run it compared to the 410 ci.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Chuck,

There is supervision on the 410. Read the USAC and Outlaw rulebooks. The basic engine configuration and some parts are specified, but it allows you to modify and massage and innovate to maximize your package.

The Chevy Spec engine is just that; an engine that you plug in as a unit and cannot modify, enhance, improve or even fix yourself. That is not for me!!! If I see something that I think can be done better I want to be able "to build a better mousetrap" and keep that advantage to myself for as long as possible.

Rob who never takes offense to anyone respectfully stating his or her opinions while allowing me to respectfully state mine.

Rob Hoffman

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

rob do you build your mopar?

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Thanks Rob, I do see many of your points both that a 410 could go 4 overhead cams and four valves per cylinder ect and thats where the rules come in.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Gaerte engines have done our engine work almost exclusively since 1987. I am not a "motor man" but I have made suggestions that have been incorporated into our engines. I have always been more preoccupied with chassis dynamics.

Rob HoffmanPosted via Mobile Device

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

But I bet the 372's they ran in Austrailia a few years ago were alright? You're jacked up in the head if you think a 360 race sucks. Better watch what you say, ASCS is really dominating the winged sprint car market. Not in attendance at the tracks, but there is more 360 winged cars than 410s.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Brady Bacon just won three straight ASCS Sprint Bandits races with, if I remember right, an $8500 engine that had seen something like 8 seasons of work. He was also utilizing a XXX Chassis, which is cheap. They used the same right-rear tire for all three wins and made very few changes to the car during the night.

Some of you guys need to go talk to the guys doing the racing. Sure, some guys are spending a lot of jack, but it doesn't take a huge budget to be competitive, especially in Indiana.

I would put the quality of racing I've seen this year up there with any I can remember. The fields are strong for the most part (some fields have been short for other reasons), and the competition is deep....if you're missing it, you better wake up and start hitting more races!!

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

I have to disagree with motormasher. When we ran SC we could get 2 to 3 races out of a motor before rebuild. (About 350 miles).

The 410 motor we run between
20 to 25 races before rebuilding (about 350 miles).

Rob Hoffman
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Down here in Houston, our late model stock class was dropped in favor of crate lates. Our biggest point is echoed on your sentiment. It sort of takes the motor out of motorsports.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

AND THE HIGH COST OF ENGINES!:checkered:

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Except that there are only about 10 or 12 crate lates at any given event. We have gone modifed racing now.

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

do they have any specs? They all have rules!

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

Question? What would be wrong with 360 non wing sprint cars? Didn't Jesse Hockett come from the back of the pack at Eldora this year with a 360 motor? Some owners claim they would save money and some claim it would cost about the same....BUT with the condition of Eldora and most tracks in the mid-west why have a 410 motor with 850 hp....because on a good day you might only use about 1/2 of the total horsepower. I have attended the Short Track Nationals at I-30 in Little Rock, (a high paying 360 winged race) Arkansas for several years and the competition is GREAT...the average sprint car fan can't tell the difference between a 410 sprint car and a 360 sprint car during a race.

Does it make sense?? Bigger motors, cost more, about 1/2 hp actually used for $1,300 to win or less...Would a 360 sprint car motor actually save the owners money??

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

yes with a compression rule like 11 to 1!

Re: 410 ci engines???????????
 

From what I have seen out of a local race shop here, the 360ci guys are spending as much on these motors as the 410's. So I don't think the size of the engine has much to do with cost.

I also have heard for a fact that the 350ci Toyota is making 800+ HP. Winning 2 of 3 races in the Dirt Champ Series. :eek:

I don't like Toyota but would like to MASH that motor in a sprint car!!!!!!!