WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I had to work the week/weekend and missed all of the first three WoO nights from Volusia, but looking at the results the WoO have apparently gone away from heat inversions. They are starting the cars straight up from quals now.

The last time I remember a series doing this was......... hmmmmmmm..... I don't!

Anyone else?

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

Doesn't make sense to me....won't this just make for more follow the leader races?

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

There's no invert but the feature lineup is set by the heat finishes now instead of cars getting their qualifying times back. I think the idea is to make drivers battle for every position in the heats instead of just settling into a transfer spot. At Volusia the heats were mostly flat out with not much passing because the track was still pretty wet, so its hard to tell if it'll make the heats better or not. It did seem like the Nascar fans that came over from Daytona understood what was going on better without the heat invert.

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

We certainly don't want to confuse the NASCAR (c) fans with racing now, would we. . .

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

Years back a guy I worked with a was a Napcar fan and I took him to Haubstadt one night when the outlaws were there. He couldn't understand why we had to run a C and a B before we ran the A main. He really thought the top 43 were going to run the A lol I still laugh when I think about it, and 43 sprints trying to run at TSS at once lol. :5:

I was there every night, outlaw heats always stink. The main focus is on the feature, local promoters really need to learn this. Get the features on the race track. We're here to watch the main event, not necessarily the qualifying events. A good feature will make you forget bad heats. Of course wingless fans are spoiled by consistently getting both.

They might as well just qualify and run the A main!

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I didn't pick up on that. Thanks, SD. I really don't know how I feel about that yet. I guess it seems more fair to line up the Feature that way, but maybe I am just so used to getting qual spots back or running a dash that I am wary of the alteration.

But I will give them credit for trying something new. Just like the All Stars tweaking their qualifying format last year. We'll see how it plays out.

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I didn't catch that either... who knows?

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I'm a hardcore old school CRA sprint car fan.

I was used to 8 car inverts for mains and heat races, if u did not transfer in heat race, the best u could start is 9th. NOT A BIG FAN WHEN USAC CHANGED the cra format :(

Also, if u do not qualify well in USAC or sometimes draw the right pill for qualifying, you have little chance to win the mainevent
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Saw a couple of late model hell tour races in IL. first off, I've probably never seen a good lm show, but the 10 or so I have been too, were not my cup of tea. But I saw they had no invert of for heat races, and I thought ***. than someone told me, if someone does not qualify well, they can get a good starting position by winning a heat race, sounds good, but .....hard to do that..............

Than I i've started watching WOO and KWS series on West Coast. I noticed only a 4 car invert, and thought , crap worse than USAC, what's wrong with everyone, give me cra format ever night. BUT....... what I found was, if u win the heat race, u get to start in the dash which determines the top 8? guys. Plus WOO now has two groups of qualifying, so in theory,, if u get horrible track conditions, ur not totally screwed. I've seen a few ISW shows, were heavy hitters were in the c main due to horrible pill draw. So how does the woo format work in theory, it rewards guys with good lap times, the top two qualifier that transfer into the main, go into the dash, it also reward guys that win heat races (invert of 4), and I've also seen Kyle Larson (i think it was him) qual badly, and but come through the heat race and win, and got a draw for the dash.
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So currently, the USAC National format is MY LEAST favorite format. It rewards guys that qualify well.
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I find way more passing, the more u invert cars, plus the better drivers do better. If u only have fast guys up front, its hard to pass them, but mix in different cars of skill, speed, $ etc, the racing can be awesome, that's why IMHO the local racing is better than national. On the natiional level, 10-20 guys have great equipment, where as local track maybe 6 or 8 guys
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I grew up racing 1/4 midgets, we inverted all the cars for the mainevents, including the QMA Grandnationals, nobody whined about, it just made better race car drivers that learned how to pass cars
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My favorite race by far,even though it is a wing race, is the trophy cup where they invert the whole main, and yes I have seen guys start last and win the overall and main event
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said my $.02 and more, but ......USAC needs to update their format, i'm going to less and less usac races, and traveling further to see KOW Wing races, where anyone has a chance to win even after qualifying.

still love usac racing, but IMHO they could do better with their format, i would go to more races if they returned to the CRA invert of 8 cars for heats and mainevents

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

They should run the sprint bandit format every night or the winter heat format no need for time trails.

Wonder what WoO will do now for the Knoxville Nationals? Always used to COMPLETELY INVERT the heat races on Wed & Thur. The fast guys used to always cry about it.....yet they always most usually found their way to the front. Best racing of the week IMO were the heat races on Wed & Thur. nights because of the invert.

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

Knoxville Nationals runs its own format

Knoxville nationals inverts 8 in the heats. Used to be 10..

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I forgot this format. I think it is the same or similiar to an ascs non wing race I saw at Lakeside.

No qualifying, two set of heat races for everyone, and than the mains.

Loved it for several reasons.

For a socal fan not used to the summer heat and humidity of the midwest, I like the idea of starting the nights racing later, sure both the fans, teams, and workers like this idea

Also, I never knew this until someone told me, qualifying on a track, wears it out quicker than racing on it. 40 to 60 cars running the same spot on a track, can change it quickly, where as 8 guys running high, low and middle wear it out less.

Also, I would rather see 8 guys racing heats, than 8 guys taking qual times, plus seeing 40 guys timing in, is not as exciting as seeing 4 heat races IMHO.

I do like qualifying for big races, but for the cra races out west (with low (er) car counts, seeing 3 meaningless heat races (unless u racing for points) and one main is hard to stomach for the cost of a Perris monthly sprint car race, gas and traffic suck in CA, parking, tickets and concessions are expensive at PAS. If CRA and PAS had the above format, i would attend more races, Instead I head north to tulare and watch 410 KOW races paired with 360 USAC races for the same ticket price or less, free parking and u can bring in anything u want into the track. At PAS, not sure u can even bring a bottle of water in.

I understand USAC has tradition, and many fans love their format. I'm just not one of those fans anymore, and go to more sprint car races that have formats I like better, like Tulare and the weekly show at Ventura. But I will go to PAS for season opener, especially with Clausen and Darland in the house, just hope they qualify good ;)

cheers - no matter your opinion on this subject, support your local short track and don't take it for granted. :)
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checked out some woo results, I would say starting the heat races with no inverts, no good for fans. Wished out west, they went back to the CRA format, where qualifying good and passing car is important. Not sure why organizations are using formats that do not promote passing :(

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I think Johnny Gibson's post on Hoseheads outlines the situation the best. See below

As the announcer for the World of Oultaws Craftsman Sprint Car Series, I obviously have a stake in this discussion, but I'm posting here as a race fan first. I LOVE the format--in fact, I've been trying to convince the series officials to run this format for years, and it has nothing to do with benefiting "our" teams, but actually trying to improve the heat races.

In the "old" format (3 heat program), a driver could be quick time, LOSE two positions in his heat, and still start on the pole of the dash. And a driver who timed 24th could start 8th in his heat, pass 6 cars, finish second, and still start 24th in the A-main. With the new format, the quick time driver has to at least hold his position to start on the pole of the initial dash line-up, and the driver who times 24th and passes 6 cars is in the dash (and starts 7th in the A if he only passes 5 cars). It also means the end of drivers "coasting" thru a heat (knowing their starting position in the dash or the A-main is secured by just a top 6 finish in a 3 heat program or a top 5 finish in a 4 heat program).

Granted, most nights heat race quality is more a factor of track condition than anything, and clean air is a huge advantage no matter WHO starts in front, but at least with this format there's now REASON to try to race harder in the heats.

For those that suggest a two heat format: I've seen this in Australia quite a bit the past few years, and I don't like it at all. It adds more time to the program, and a point system is VERY difficult to keep track of. (The ability to keep track of what's going on is HUGE in my opinion--and that comes from my conversations with fans.)

Also--something I haven't seen mentioned in any comments about multiple heats: more cost for the teams. It's basically another main event on an engine every 3 or 4 races. (The cost of multiple heats is something I hear about A LOT from drivers in Australia.)

In short, I think that this format is the best possible format (none are perfect) for a nationally touring series like the World of Outlaws Craftsman Sprint Car Series, and I believe over the course of the year will significantly improve the heat racing (which is the intent).

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

I fail to see how running the dash is any cheaper than running a qualifier. And how is it more expensive than running a B main or a C then B Main? Seems to me the only ones saving laps on their equipment in the sprint bandit format is ones who transfer straight out of the heat but don't make the dash.

With the heat / qualifier format like the Sprint Bandits even if you get stacked heats through the draw you still get pretty balanced qualifiers with most of the faster cars at the back. ( This fixes the downfall of passing points with heats only where you have stacked heats and weak heats and drivers get screwed on the draw)
In the main the faster cars will usually start toward the front but the top several rows will normally be pretty equal cars that results in some good racing with the occasional fast car that starts back a few rows that will make a charge to the front.
With that format when they came to this area you got to see 6 good sized heats, a B and an A main along with 3 heats with an A and possibly B main for the support class which is just about the right amount of racing to get your moneys worth.

Another great point about this format when you live somewhere like Kansas is you get to see the traveling stars you paid to see race 3 times while still having a chance to see a local give them a run for their money ( I will never forget Jesse Hockett's drive to the front at Lakeside that started an amazing non wing career)

For this part of the country where most don't get to the national stars often the Sprint Bandit format to me is best.

Years ago Lawrenceburg Speedway (when it was a 1/4 bull ring) eliminated qualifying all together. Less wear on track surface, less time on tires and engines, allowed the venue to start on time, etc. Drivers drew for heat race positions. Three heat night saw top five in heats make the feature with heat 1 winner on the pole, 2nd heat winner outside front, etc. 6th on back ran the consi with the top five filling out the field. Four heat night saw the top four finishers in heats and consi make up the feature. Drivers and owners were a little apprehensive, but soon found out the same driver/cars finished the same as they did using the qualifying method. Just saying....

Usac format is the best. It was even better back when the heats were 8 inverted, but 6 is good enough. Let's face it, and I love both, but wing heat races suck most of the time. I have been to Terre haute for usac, and watched the first heat, and said to my friend, ok, we can go now cause that was worth the price of admission.

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

After reading the replies my response is that no one format fits all. My preference is the USAC format where qualifying, and heat races are meaningful. This does not fit with all, such as weekly shows with limited time and what sometimes feels like unlimited support classes. If I go to a "major league" show I expect to get the whole package, not a truncated version. Every format has limitations and compromises, but a so-called top tier event should include qualifying, partially inverted heats, a last chance race and listen up USAC: a 40 lap main.

.currently anchored in St. Anne, Martinique

Re: WoO - No Heat Inversions
 

In an Indiana Open Wheel Forum, I figured the USAC format would be the most popular, and since I grew up with the CRA format, I tend to like that one. 8 car inverts for mains and heats?

But how's this format. Two groups are separated in qualifying. The first group races heat races 1 and 2, and second group 3 and 4. 8 car invert for heats the winner of the heat race and fastest car in heat that transfer get into the dash with a pea pick for top 6 spots (6 fastest guys that transfer), the other 2 start in rear of dash. That almost guarantees u have to both qualify fast, and pass cars during the night.

Also, with 6 car inverts, it's likely you will have nearly 24 fast cars, but maybe not as much if you have 32 cars. You need to have both fast and slow cars to make for a good show. If all you have is 3 dave darlands and 3 Ballou's in a race, yeah it might be exciting, but wouldn't it be better if u had 2 Dave's, 2 Ballous, and 4 Ricky gaunts in a heat race. If all you have is 6 Darlands in a hear race, yeah it might be exciting, but not much passing. What if u had (I don't know all the drivers in the Midwest) but 6 Mike Spencers, guys that race smooth, hard and fast (wins lot of races and championships) race with their head, not right foot, might not be as much action.

I agree there is no perfect format, but I can say from experience, the USAC format of 6 and 6 is not nearly as good as 8 and 8 is for racing on CA tracks IMHO. Maybe it is in Indiana? I just want to see guys have a chance to win the main, and ... with my format above, anybody can win the main even if they don't qualify well.

Just my $02 and don't expect others to agree, but maybe open dialog with the sanctioning body, teams and fans. I know Indiana has strong support for racing, but in CA, you don't see many fans at the track anymore that don't have grey hair and are north of 50. But maybe that is a regional thing.

PS I know guys like Darland, Ballou, Spencer, Gaunt (rip his driving days ;) , etc all could start 8th in a heat or main, and transfer and win the main. As it is now, it would be hard for any of these drivers if they qualified 25th, there chance at winning the main is not great.