USAC and D2 Midgets
 

From what I gather reading Face Book "DO" is supposed to be talking about USAC's new Division of D2 Midgets tonight.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Ok I have question for the people in the midget world. I understand the "national engine" I think I understand the "D2 engine" class. This were I am a little lost, USAC has a sealed Honda engine. This is the replacement for the old Ford focus program. So if I buy a sealed Honda engine. Can I race another place/class other then in a USAC "Honda" class race? Would the Honda engine be allowed to race with the USAC national engine class. Would the Honda engine be equal to a "D2" class engine (size-horse power-torque-weight)? Is the Honda legal to run under the new "D2" rules? Last year they let old focus cars and 1000 cc mini sprints race with the new Honda engine. If I had a "D2" engine, could I race with the USAC Honda class this year? It seems like we have 3 types of midgets now. Not sure how they match up and over lap to allow for different class use.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Originally Posted by chop:
Ok I have question for the people in the midget world. I understand the "national engine" I think I understand the "D2 engine" class. This were I am a little lost, USAC has a sealed Honda engine. This is the replacement for the old Ford focus program. So if I buy a sealed Honda engine. Can I race another place/class other then in a USAC "Honda" class race? Would the Honda engine be allowed to race with the USAC national engine class. Would the Honda engine be equal to a "D2" class engine (size-horse power-torque-weight)? Is the Honda legal to run under the new "D2" rules? Last year they let old focus cars and 1000 cc mini sprints race with the new Honda engine. If I had a "D2" engine, could I race with the USAC Honda class this year? It seems like we have 3 types of midgets now. Not sure how they match up and over lap to allow for different class use.

Chop

The Honda Engine falls right into D2 rules. D2 Midgets I guess you could call the equal opportunity division of the Midget race group. Kind of like a throw back to the 40's-60's when a midget had to meet certain dimensions body and frame size and engine displacement. They ran out board motors (Boy they smelled good), Motorcycle engines, small automotive engines and the trusty old 110 Offy. In the 70's special motor designs began to emerge and the run what you brung gang was displaced, and dis-appeared from the scene.

Just recently automobile engines and small motorcycle have emerged with 4 valve heads that are vastly superior to the old push rod 2 valve design. Motor cycle engines as small as 60 cubic engines are pushing 200 Horse Power right off of the bike. That fact lead to the development of the Mini Sprint race car (Midget Chassis powered by a Crotch Rocket Motor). A few years later the auto makers started making a modern 4 valve engine for the newer car design, (Thank You EPA). These motors while around 120 cubic inches to 150 cubic inches also produce around 200 Horse Power in a nearly stock state, Thus the invent of the Focus-Ecotec-Honda Midgets. All the racers had to do was figure out that all of these Midget Frame based Midget racers were very competitive with one another and I'll be darned the Idea of D2 Midgets was actualized. Just like falling off a log.:D

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I need to make the following corrections to my original post. Only the motors listed below are legal in the USAC D2 Midgets.


GM Ecotec 2.4L (LE5), or 2.2L (L61)
Honda 2.4 L (K24A1)
Chrysler World Engine 2.4L
Toyota 2.4L (2AZ-FE)
Ford/Mazda Duratec 2.3L (23 I-4/L3)
GM Quad 4 2.3L and 2.4L
Ford 2.0L Focus/Scream Pre-2004



Sorry for all the confusion on the original post.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

The USAC sealed Honda Motor did not go over too well, they are kind of expensive. When Levi Jones took over the USAC midget division the PowrI Midgets were just getting into the Division2 class. Levi saw the possibility of the D2 concept and since the Honda's had not taken off yet, I guess he decided it would be a much better choice in going with the D2 concept. Both USAC and PowrI race under the same National rules so racers have a choice where and when they race, much like the National Midgets do.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Sounds like usac used the D2 movement to facilitate their own personal agenda. Don't believe I saw that engine in the original D2 rules posting.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Da

USAC needed car count and D2 Midgets should do that for them. There is nothing special about the Honda motor and I really don't think they will need to be restricted. Right now I think you can count the Honda cars on one hand. With these motors maybe USAC can work on a tire deal and go Pavement racing with them. They had 2 Honda cars at the Speedrome for the Tony Stewart race this last summer and they did pretty good.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

The Usac home page does not mention D2 midgets. Is this not done yet.

Two USAC Sanctioned D2 clubs are the IMRA in Illinois/Iowa and the Midwest D2 Midget Series in Indiana. Plus I think one in the north east.

What happen to the Subaru engine?

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Wayne

You must have Subaru on the brain. They only come in 1600cc>>2000cc>>2500cc's. They were just a little too big.

Were I to write the engine rule, I would say something like this. Engine must be readily available in USA in large enough quantity to be easily available to all racers, (proof of 2500+ in production). Limited it to 3000cc's. Any 4 cycle engine of any cylinder configuration would be allowed. If engine came stock from factory with forced induction the displacement would be limited to 2000cc's and Boost would have to remain set at stock factory specifications, to be monitored by sanctioning body with a Data Acquisition device, (could be something very simple and inexpensive). Bore and stroke would have to remain at stock specifications as the engine being used (NO ALLOWANCE FOR CLEAN UP). Stock sized HD valves and HD Valve Springs would be allowed. The use of any aftermarket engine blocks, heads, crankshafts, camshafts, rods, and pistons would be forbidden. NO PORT ALTERATIONS would be allowed. Oiling, carburetion, Ignition, and engine management would be optional. No traction control.

Don't limit brand of car or model (or for that sake don't even limit it to automobile, it could be boat or snowmobile) motor, who cares. The Porsche, Ferrari, etc and other hot cars and motors would lose out because of production #'s. BUT it would sure open up the field to lots and lots of engine configurations and yes there would still be the engine of choice and probably not one of the engines set forth in the rules as they are written now. And speeds would increase :D:D

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Where can we find this link from the D.O. interview ?
:44:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Scott

Don't know, I tuned in and got Dan Drinan>>>read it on Face Book??:44::44::44:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Dang-it
:15:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Ok so when I ask about this subject, not looking to cause a fight. Just trying to get more information. So is the USAC Honda class done? In 2016, was this not going to be a combo-chassis for pavement and dirt races. One hand you have what I understand is a $10,000 sealed engine or a $800 dollar junk yard engine. An other post in this thread shows a Honda D2 legal engine. Is that the same engine as the sealed engine. Can I get the same engine out of a junk yard? On a side note, I like your input Dad, but not looking to go down the what they should do or what it was like in the old days. Trying to figure out if a person was going to get a lower tier midget. What are the real options for next year.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Chop

The D2 concept is predicated on cost containment. Last year USAC shared a lot of programs with the Mini Sprints to get a decent field of cars. The little Honda Sealed Motor isn't worth 10 Grand. The way I read D2 rules is, go buy a $1000.00 for a junk yard Honda motor or $10,000.00 for a sealed Honda Motor and go racing. They are on the right path to bringing Midget racing back just a little bit. Remember Mini Sprint are really a Midgets too.

Taking this concept another 500cc's would turn these Midgets into something very similar to the National Guys performance wise.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Exactly how many midget classes are there ?

What would happen if the national level USAC midgets would mix up the rule book and only allow OEM engine blocks or aftermarket comparatives, and that be the only rule.... I feel like the new car engines would be great.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

V8

A better question would be how many classes use the Midget Chassis as a racing platform. A midget is a Midget the way I see it be it a 600cc upright or a full blown TRO National Midget and everything else in between.:) Racing has always been Regional and I suspect it always will be. Some people have tried to change the name by calling them "XX Sprint" or "Speed Car" or "Speedster's", but when push comes to shove they are all Midgets. Some of the guys just spend a little more money on their Motors. How many classes of "Stock Cars" are out there???

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86:
What would happen if the national level USAC midgets would mix up the rule book and only allow OEM engine blocks or aftermarket comparatives, and that be the only rule.... I feel like the new car engines would be great.

Scott

Engine design has come a long way in the last 20 years or so. I think some of these newer stock motors especially when they get up to around 3 liters or so and turn into the V design block (they have better port layout) could give some of these high dollar 50 year old 2 valve motors a real run for the money.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

This has perked my interest but I have a question. Who does the harnesses for the K24a1? Cut them down and resist out all the garbage? Any sites I can look at for good reading?
From what I've researched it's going to be tough to make over 200 hp in this class with not being able to put different head/block combinations together.
Also, anyone make mechanical injection for these?
Thanks for all the heads up.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Here is a few pics of a Honda K24A1 with MSD ign,Engler Injection. This motor happens to be a dry sump but is available in wet sump as well.( Which is much cheaper to build) This will give viewers a look at what a Honda looks like in race form. This engine was built by Jim Stewart of Stewart Engine in Indy who has years of experience with Hondas and other 4 cylinder production engines.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Here are some pics of the Honda K24A1 wet sump engine mounted in a car with the header we designed at Schoenfeld headers to fit the midget. This has been dyno tested by Jim Stewart of Stewart Engines in Indy with the Engler injection to come up with a good combo.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Originally Posted by Hustler:
This has perked my interest but I have a question. Who does the harnesses for the K24a1? Cut them down and resist out all the garbage? Any sites I can look at for good reading?
From what I've researched it's going to be tough to make over 200 hp in this class with not being able to put different head/block combinations together.
Also, anyone make mechanical injection for these?
Thanks for all the heads up.

Its getting easier to get 210 hp if you have a 1000cc mini sprint. 1000cc chain drives are rapidly advancing in hp numbers and are establishing themselves as the alphas of D2. This will be great for the growth of mini sprints, expect them in victory lane most the time. :31:

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

1000 cc motorcycle engines have a problem. You need a rich-drunk-20 something to crash a sport bike to get a engine. As more classes of race cars use them, less around and higher cost. Other problem would be getting a engine off of a stolen bike. If you have a engine with a VIN number that shows it was stripped, tell that one to Mr. police. I know someone that had one in a dune buggy, Paid a high price for having it. Unless someone can make a deal with a bike maker to sell new long blocks, not going to be easy to keep getting one when you need one. Other problem no matter how much you talk yourself blue in the face. Bike engines are not meant to run full throttle, non stop for 20 laps. If we can use a cheap car engine that is made by the 100,000 per year, better for the racer

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Chop

Some of what you say is true some not so true. People that buy 1000cc bikes are pretty good riders and they wreck a lot less than the 600cc guys. A top notch 1000cc bike brings $12,000.00+ new and guys try to protect their investments. As far as performance goes they are tough little buggers, when you can get better than 3 HP per cubic inch from your power plant you are approaching F-1 car potential. Durable?? you can expect 3 or 4 years hard racing out of one of them, BUT they are getting a little harder to find and price has increased about 30% in the last few years. Supply and demand. With the 4 valve auto engines it is again a buyers Market.

The trick for D2 it to prevent people trying to get 2 horsepower per cubic inch out of these little motors.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Well Chop the problem is the people will buy what's dominate the motorcycle engines come from salvage yards just like the rest... I for one don't think it will be the 1000 that's dominate unless guys build them like they are now aloud too be built ..the race will be between the built 1000s and the strong ecotechs... Everyone else will be car count. There is a reason why these ecotechs weren't allowed to play with the focus cars and the Hondas before. One guarantee people will buy what wins, it doesn't matter what the purse is.. In the latest D0 interview they talk about cheaters." It said who would want to cheat for a $2500 purse". I can a answer that.... Everyone. The glory of winning will ***** all. The rule book is uninforcable, so many different engines and not enough knowledge. This has always been the problem.

Originally Posted by chop:
1000 cc motorcycle engines have a problem. You need a rich-drunk-20 something to crash a sport bike to get a engine. As more classes of race cars use them, less around and higher cost. Other problem would be getting a engine off of a stolen bike. If you have a engine with a VIN number that shows it was stripped, tell that one to Mr. police. I know someone that had one in a dune buggy, Paid a high price for having it. Unless someone can make a deal with a bike maker to sell new long blocks, not going to be easy to keep getting one when you need one. Other problem no matter how much you talk yourself blue in the face. Bike engines are not meant to run full throttle, non stop for 20 laps. If we can use a cheap car engine that is made by the 100,000 per year, better for the racer

I was paying the same for the big bore bike kits 25 years ago that I pay today. Back in the old days we had no internet and fewer rich drunk kids. The new motors will also last a lot longer.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Andy

Say it isn't so.!!!!!!:D

It not the power of your power plant but how good you put the power of your power plant to the race track. (Say that 10 times:D)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Mmmmm ok dad... Is that why we see so many low dollar motors winning the big "real" midget races lol.

On a track the size of Duqouin, little Salem... And maybe the old Linton I'll buy it... Well if buy it with out the water truck!

Chain guys swear that eco tech have the advantage, ecotech guys will swear that chain cars have the advantage. I'm not the smartest guy and not the definative expert but we probably have run as many of these races as anyone the past couple of years. I can say these cars are as close as you could make it. We have been very competitive with a stock 06 R1. Some tracks and conditions favor one or the other, but that is the way racing always is.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Originally Posted by RickyBobby:
Its getting easier to get 210 hp if you have a 1000cc mini sprint. 1000cc chain drives are rapidly advancing in hp numbers and are establishing themselves as the alphas of D2. This will be great for the growth of mini sprints, expect them in victory lane most the time. :31:

Per D2 rules:

Equalization:

"As the POWRi Division II grows, it will attempt to equalize competition, we reserve the right to adjust the rules. When the current rules have been shown to favor a particular interpretation, or a certain make of engine, we will work to adjust the rules in as inexpensive way as possible, within a reasonable amount of time."


Just sayin'.

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

Andy

Welll what I have noticed over the years is simple. As the caliber of racing gets better most of the drivers are very talented and can use a car and motor to the fullest capabilities. So if it was a horse race I would bet on the motor.

Now we move down a notch or two to Mini Sprint Racing or now to D2 Midgets. We are presented with a different set of variables. The motors are pretty equal even when hot roded in the case of the Mini Sprint. When an engine is producing 3+ horsepower per cubic inch in it's "STOCK" tune there is not a lot left to do but make it more manageable. With numbers like this a 410 sprint motor would be producing 1200 to 1400 Horsepower.

Now the drivers experience in the lower class might range from a couple of months to 20+ years. In many instances drivers with years of experience in racing in the upper echelon of racing are returning to their roots in Mini Sprints and D2 Midgets because of the cost versus performance aspect of these cars.

All of that being said in the case of D2 or Mini Sprint racing I would be inclined to bet on the driver as opposed to the motor. I understand some teams are actually hiring older more experienced drivers to race for them in search of that elusive but always wanted win.

You young racers out their getting beat all the time please don't drink the Kool Aid. A good motor and chassis won't help much in the experience department. Have fun and work on your driving and set up expertise. Get an in car lap timer and race yourself. "Good Better Best>>Never let It Rest>>Until Your Good Is Better And Your Better Is Best"

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Things were pretty even in the past. How much power will the 2.4L be down now that they can't use after market pistons and cams? I would think the drop in compression will make a difference on alcohol. The 1000cc's can now use after market rods, pistons and cams. I don't see that making a huge difference, but it will help some.

After market rods, pistons, and cams are huge in the 1000cc. Not to mention you just spent $3000.

It's all head and compression on the liter motors. They are very good stock, but they can be better.

OK, If that does make a huge difference I think the drive shaft guys are going to be wanting a "adjustment" early in the season. Not every 1000cc will be built, but several will be.

The 1000cc bike engines and the production automotive engines are both only allowed aftermarket rods,valve springs and retainers. Pistons and cams must remain stock in all engines by the rules

Re: USAC and D2 Midgets
 

I was always partial to Lime flavored :44::44::44::44::44::44:;)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I see nothing pertaining to motorcycle engines pistons in the USAC rules.

Rods are the Achilles heel in our engines.