USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Will they ever come back? Plans? Rumors? Why did they leave?

Cost !!!!!!

Other than the Tony Stewart race at the Speedrome and a few Kenyon cars shows there or at Anderson along with Ft. Wayne indoors. That looks to be about it for Pavement Midgets.!

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by v8j:
Cost !!!!!!

I understand the cost, but when and why did it cost too much to run Midgets & Sprints? There was the Copper Classic and they had 30+ Midgets & 40+ Silver Crown cars, on a mile track no less. They had weekly races at IRP with good car counts, Sprints, Midgets & Silver Crown. Salem Speedway would have their Sprint & Midget double header with good car counts. The Little 500 would have 50 + cars entered, now they are lucky to fill the field. It seems like someone took out a magic wand and said it cost to much to run payment and everyone bought the story. I like pavement races, but going to the east coast to watch Supers is out of the question.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Well>>>not trying to sound political>>>> But who was president back then. I know if I would have had just four more years of that one guy I would have been able to retire. Most racer type folks have taken a serious hit to the hip pocket since 1990.

Pavement takes Horsepower and lots and lots of tires, both cost money. The DII concept may bring back some limited shows but nothing like the the 80's and 90's.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

My observation as a pavement fan and sometimes pavement sprint car racer is the real difference in the cost of running dirt vs. pavement is the tires. Engines are basically the same. Pavement cars are a little more expensive initially because of some of the required parts but at the present time it's a buyers market for used cars and there are some real deals out there.

The rate at which you burn through tires on pavement is a real problem. At minimum, you need to buy a new right rear and either a right front or left rear a night, or all three if you have the money. Each heat cycle is detrimental to grip, so new tires are a real advantage. Spartan and MTS have the pavement guys on an M55 (pavement silver crown RR) and I intend to try running a second night on one at Spartan next season to see how much you're really giving up...a hard tire should be less sensitive to heat cycles. I help a buddy with a dirt car, and he's running the same front tires for the whole season (unless there's a flat) and buying a tire here or there as they wear out. He has a lot more inventory to be able to change stagger as the night goes on and track conditions change, but running a used tire is not a performance disadvantage unless it's completely worn out.

At the end of pavement sprints being part of the USAC National Championship (not as a separate division) there were no rules on the number of tires used in a night. Pretty much all the competitive cars were buying two sets of tires per night. I saw guys bolt four sticker tires on for a semi feature. This was all nuts when you consider most features paid $4,000 to win and $400 to start at that time. You would have to run 2nd or 3rd in the feature to win enough to cover the tire bill.

One big nail in the coffin of the pavement sprints was when they were split into their own division. Six or eight cars got parked because guys no longer needed to run them for points and couldn't justify the expense. The Toledo show went from having a 20 car field the year before the split to 13 or 14 the year after. I believe that the year the pavement cars were a separate division they tried to put in some rules on tire consumption (had to run the same RR for qualifying, heat, and feature) but it was too little, too late.

Probably the best tire rule that I have experience with was what the MSA supermodified guys used a few years ago, where you were limited to two new tires per night after the first two races. It wasn't perfect. There was constant complaining when a new car showed up (with no stenciled used tires) and always suspicion that people were faking the stencils to have more new tires than they were allowed. But, it was an honest effort to try to keep the tire expenses in check and keep the playing field level.

I don't know what the right answer is to get pavement racing back to where it was a few years ago. All forms of pavement open wheel racing are hurting right now for a variety of reasons. It is rare to see car counts over 20 for any series. Even the ISMA supermodifieds are having trouble getting more than 20 cars at some of the races that are far from New York and New England. USSA has dropped their sprint car division due to lack of cars and lack of tracks wanting to schedule races. Getting a handle on tire expenses would certainly be a step in the correct direction and would help the guys that are left continue to race.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

The sad thing is the tire bills don't have to be this high. A certain sanctioning body gets a kickback on tire sales. The same molds are used to make road racing tires that handle multiple heat cycles much better at a slight reduction in top speed. Changing the compound could make tires last more than one night but the sanctioning body's income would plummet.
It makes no sense that a 2300 pound road racing sedan can go 100 miles or more on a set of tires and a 950 pound midget is out of traction after 15 miles.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

I've said for a long time, If F1 can run one tire on a 2000pd machine pushing 10gs at time in corners and breaking for 2hrs on one tire. Why can't a sprint or midget have tires to last 3-4 nights?

It might sound stupid to some. I don't think its unfeasible. Even if that one tire was 4-600 dollars. They can run street vettes, stangs and porches around the road course for a hour and drive em home on the same tire.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

I had a former midget owner tell me things got too expensive in the early 80's. It just took a while to reach rock bottom. Another problem their is no feeder program below USAC in midgets.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

F1 cars pit once or twice per race for a 4 tire change.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

The P1 and P2 cars of the WEC series can get two or three stints before a tire change.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by sprntr:
F1 cars pit once or twice per race for a 4 tire change.

They have to use two different tire compounds during an F1 race.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by sprntr:
F1 cars pit once or twice per race for a 4 tire change.

Yeah because of a gimmick of having to run both sets of compounds at some point in the race. I've been told they could run the whole race on one set. If my info is wrong, Please correct me. And I have no idea what one of those tires cost.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Yeah because of a gimmick of having to run both sets of compounds at some point in the race. I've been told they could run the whole race on one set. If my info is wrong, Please correct me. And I have no idea what one of those tires cost.

No, they are junk after one stint.

Specialized cars and tires to match that type car. Old enough to remember Eldora Sat night and Winchester Sun pm

The other thing is no TV,$35-$45k midget motors, and testing all take a toll on a budget. With all that being said I believe I was a part of Racing during the best time of Midget Racing.1994-2003

The VW era of the late 70s and throughout the 80s was the mighty Midgets' hay day! Great car counts on pavement and dirt! Cost was reasonable!

I agree that pavement racing is definitely struggling but it is not completely dead here in the Midwest. USAC definitely let a lot of air out of the balloon when they shut pavement down but STARS who runs at Grundy County Speedway in Morris, IL is trying to keep the Pavement midget alive.

In 2015 they ran AR tires which would last a couple of nights. I've heard some discussions regarding motors and how to help control costs. It all comes down to the mighty cost. If pavement is your thing you might consider looking into STARS.

My team will be running D2 in 2016 but we will also be running a pavement car with an Ecotec. The only way to save pavement is with a passion for it. A passion to find 50 hp in the chassis and not pour the liquid gold into motors.

Just a thought...but have motors become so much because drivers are unable to make a car work for them through setup? Midget pavement setup is a fine art but HP can make a bad setup work. I'm not saying I know how to pavement midgets. I am saying I will do what I can to support pavement midgets.

Scott Corry
MWR Team Manager

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Yeah because of a gimmick of having to run both sets of compounds at some point in the race. I've been told they could run the whole race on one set. If my info is wrong, Please correct me. And I have no idea what one of those tires cost.

Lap times fall off enough to make it worth the time it takes to pit to change tires.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
I've said for a long time, If F1 can run one tire on a 2000pd machine pushing 10gs at time in corners and breaking for 2hrs on one tire. Why can't a sprint or midget have tires to last 3-4 nights?

It might sound stupid to some. I don't think its unfeasible. Even if that one tire was 4-600 dollars. They can run street vettes, stangs and porches around the road course for a hour and drive em home on the same tire.

Originally Posted by sprntr:
F1 cars pit once or twice per race for a 4 tire change.

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
Yeah because of a gimmick of having to run both sets of compounds at some point in the race. I've been told they could run the whole race on one set. If my info is wrong, Please correct me. And I have no idea what one of those tires cost.

I few years ago it was actually a rule that you could only have one set of tires for an entire race. (Not allowed to change tires) But at that time you could still refuel, so they would stop for gas and no tires. Now they wore and slowed down and lost grip and all that stuff; but they didn't blow out on a regular basis either. (When they did it was usually after a driver flat spotted the heck out of them)

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Well>>>not trying to sound political>>>> But who was president back then. I know if I would have had just four more years of that one guy I would have been able to retire. Most racer type folks have taken a serious hit to the hip pocket since 1990.

Pavement takes Horsepower and lots and lots of tires, both cost money. The DII concept may bring back some limited shows but nothing like the the 80's and 90's.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Remember Bill's number one pet peeve was ********. He said there was no place for it on this site. Please show some respect for the moderators and Mrs G.. The problems in racing are not the fault of any President. These problems develop over a long period of time.

Re: USAC Pavement Midgets
 

The VW era of the late 70s and throughout the 80s was the mighty Midgets' hay day! Great car counts on pavement and dirt! Cost was reasonable!

Yes the good old days. Lets see, I had a chevy II engine in a midget. Then I had to get a chevy V-8 engine with the one side cut off of the block. The VW was better, so I had to buy a frame and VW engine. Then it was the mazda rotary engine powered car was better. Then the VW turned in a scat/auto-craft cash burning time. Rebuild that thing ever couple of races. MMM lets get a over head cam engine out of a Ford rally race car. Lets turn a ton of RPM's and send that thing back to England to redo every few races. Ok now let's make a special VW car (hello munchkins) Ok now lets have the sprint car engine builders make special inline 4 engines. Now lets deal with a guy out west that races off road trucks that needs to make some cash to pay for his off road racing team. Yeah if my Dad pays way to much for everything to race on Thursday night USAC midget race. I can get to race in NASCAR. Lets get a INDYCAR mechanic to make a special long track pavement car. You know what, lets get a sprint car and race one of the number of new classes that are racing on dirt. OK what happen to all the midget cars. Did I miss something?