New DII Engine rules
 

Winter is here and it's time to start making rules and changes for next season. Maybe it is time to start checking to see what racers feel about DII engine rules. I realize some of this stuff is confusing. You may vote yes on as many items as you like you or I may add to the poll if we wish and think of something that I missed.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

I can't find the "don't allow" button anywhere. :31:

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Looks to me your trying to get back to a 30k motor !!!!!!!!!

We as racers cannot make our own rules
I agree looking at this poll it can escalate quickly
I think French Grimes has a formula that works
We need to not let racers make make these decisions

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Fish

If you want you can write in additional responses that includes "Don't allow" In fact I am going to add a couple more responses my self. You can even change your vote as often as you like.:)


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Looks like we have a lot of racers out there with older National Midget Motors wanting some place to race. That sounds like a good thing to me. Or do they think they can just go "Cherry Picking" in the DII class?:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

I want to go racing not inspecting. Let's return to the common sense rules of the 1970s BEFORE all these specialized racing motors came into being. If it looked like a Chevy II on the outside and didn't have a cross flow head you got so many cubic inches and if you finished in the top three you were checked. If it was a different engine type you got a different displacement.
I have Honda F motors that started off as $500 E-bay basket cases and the D2 rules act like they are plutonium. It should be up to the car owners what parts they want to put inside their motors. The cost savings come from using stock castings not stock parts that might fail and cost you a whole motor. In most cases the stock parts are as good or better than the aftermarket parts. The entire numbers matching thing is a joke. If you race for a few years you will end up with a collection of damaged motors and it makes no sense to prevent a car owner from bolting together a frankenstein if the parts fit.
The automakers are changing motors much more frequently than before. Today's racing Ecotec is not the same as in the 2015 cars. A top level spec salvage yard motor will cost more than a used up low spec motor but will be cheaper than rebuilding anything.
Our Illini group has been doing the D2 thing for 24 seasons and we've seen damn near everything tried at least once. The rules shouldn't keep people from being creative.

Before you worry about rules everyone needs to come together and figure out the identity of D2 midgets, or whatever you choose to call them. Are we gonna be less expensive national midgets with $15-20k engines, or a true lower class that is an open wheel alternative to a stock car or sport mod with $5-10k engines? Once you decide that, the rules will be easy to figure out. I don't care either way, just decide. Selfishness and ego among the leaders of this concept will kill it long before bad rules will. We need an identity before we need a set of rules.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Travis

I don't think they will be either "Mini" Or "Lightning" Midgets. The old guy with the concept down in Florida who has put forth a lot of time and effort furthering the concept, I would have to rate as selfless. He isn't making anything off of the deal. He is just trying to further the cause.

Me I am a very interested by stander who also like to get people thinking. At first I was a bit disturbed with the results but further study seems to prove out that racers aren't too far off the mark.

Do you think you could change your handle to DII01 or D201 ??:)

Seriously most of the people involved have the best interest of the class at heart. I for one don't want to see a wide open bidding war about who can spend the most money. If done right spending money won't be as big of an advantage as it is in other classes of racing, just like Mini-Sprints (I never did like the term Lightning Sprint) that is what got the Florida guy to thinking.;);)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

There is not much new in this D2 business. In 2016 the Illini Racing Series will have its 25th season of sportsman midget racing. Laverne Spenser has sheparded this deal from the start and has the scars to prove it. You may not like our tire rules but we have the motor thing pretty much under control. National motors are allowed but restricted; we have a stock internal rule but make allowances in restrictor size to account for motors that have been internally modified.
All that got "invented" in Florida or Iowa was the D2 nametag. Stock block clubs existed before WWII and proudly called themselves Class B Midgets.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

I agree with Red70 comment. This is not going to be up to a vote on IOW as to what engine rules will be, and it shouldn't be. There is never been and never will be a engine rules that meets everyone's desire.. There is a big meeting this weekend with many of the groups and POWRI to hammer out the rules.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

If someone decides to get an architect to design a house for them many times they will be presented with a survey asking what they care about and what is not so important to them. This helps the architect design a house that is more favorable to the owners. They generally do not include all of the wishes and may add things they think is necessary to make the house livable. From what I can tell the response has been pretty close to what I would have predicted.

But yea I have always said race organizations that are run by a benevolent dictator are usually always better than ones run by a committee. Most racers tend to be a little nearsighted when it comes to rules, thinking more about how will this rule affect me and to heck with everybody else.

The response about older National Midget motors kind of surprised me>>I did not realize how many of them were out there. These guys want to race and I would suspect they will race somewhere.

I am from Kentucky: Our State Motto is "United We Stand and Divided We Fall" Very true words.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Once again why fix something that's not broken. As stated there is a meeting this weekend to talk about standardizing the rules to be able to run all over the country with no issues and unite everyone on a common playing ground, and for the guys with the older national motors wanting to race with the "D2" or however it will be named, there are places to run that national motor still, why restrict it to run slower? If your eyes are set to a class of this standards just sell the motor and build a motor legal to the rules. Less money and less maintenance all around. Just my 2 cents but I've also been in this and understand how things are and where they should go in the future. Any publicity about this style of racing is good, just think about how much drama it brings up starting poll's or discussing rules that make no sense most times. Keep it constructive and positive and good things will come. It's all about having a way to race an affordable midget to the little guys.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Hull

I believe that is exactly what would happen. If a guy blows up his old motor his bill to rebuild it or replace is going to be substantial. Much more than building a relatively stock type 4 valve motor (I Hope anyhow), that will out run them when they are set with moderate de-tuning to their old motor. Vintage racing is also growing more in popularity every day and these motors might be worth a lot of money to a Vintage racer trying to finish his project. When they are gone they are gone, (priced any 110 Offy Motor's lately"?? I also realize they stand a SnowBall's chance of being included in the class>>to me that is a shame.

The big thing to keep in mind is these new motors are getting more powerful every year and do not require a lot of outside pieces to make them dependable. The car makers have the ultimate equipment and knowledge to build a very fast and dependable motor we might be better to leave the internals just like they left the factory. And yes I know some racers just love to tinker!!!!

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I agree that most people have the best interest of everyone at heart, but there are a few that have an agenda that benefits them more than others. Selfishness isn't always about money.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Gear

I like your tire rule. I would like it even more if it was a Hoosier or American Racer very hard compound with a 10" tread and 82 to 84".

You guys are the originators no doubt. Wayne I think has spent some time in talking with you guys. He is the guy that somehow has brought you guys into the National awareness. Having read your rules 3 or 4 times and still getting confused every time I applaud your work. On dirt HP is not always your friend BUT on pavement HP is King and being able to devise a rule or plan and formula that also keeps all cars competitive on pavement is outstanding.

You guys have done your Homework!!!!!:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

A harder tire rule is only going to cause more cautions and guys spinning all over the place. The tracks have been hard, slick and barely rubber down so the sp2/sd38 have been a good choice. I ran a sp3 all year and had good luck with it but in the down side it seals up quick. What's in place now is a good rule IMO

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

You cant keep the engine costs down once the "pro" engine builders get invovled. Its just the nature of having someone do something for you. Look at the cost of "stock" kart racing engines..... If you can find a way to "mandate" that the "team" built the engine, you may be on to something.....

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Hull

The guys up in Illinois race on a much smaller tire and for years seem to do just fine with them both on pavement and dirt.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Hull you are right and I like it and the florida group's tire deal...my understanding they are Hoosier dealer but you can still run whatever you want as long as it punches 40-45 somewhere like that and it's RR only...I know SP-2 is like a 42-43 and they are allowed.

I'm from Illinois and run with the IMRA and we run the "big" tires which are just normal midget tires and the IRS guys in northern Illinois run the smaller AR tires which look like front tires all around. Either way the SP2 is a good tire and last depending on the driver and the track. That's why I played with the SP3 this year to see how that would play out and it worked great on the abrasive surfaces I got atleast 4-5 races before it was junk. On the less abrasive tracks it seals up and is basically junk. So the sp2 and above plus SD38 and above work really well for these types of power plants. Enough power to break them loose yet not to much power to blister or toast a tire.

You can't police this class, race them .....

It is all police-able with trained tech people and the correct post race procedures. 2 race wins pull a valve cover or an oil pan. The current bore scopes can check anything that can make a difference from ports to pistons. Just have to do your homework on the engines that are legal for the series.

Racing is a funny sport. It attracts people from several different backgrounds and walks of life. Some do it because of the competition. Some for the thrill and some for the mechanical challenge. Some rich and some poor.

The common thread that runs through all of them is ego. The vast majority hate to lose and hate to face why they get beat. Most blame that they are out motored or out monied. Some truth to that....but mostly the results are because they don't emphasize spending the money and time in the right places.

So now we are where we are at. Another class of cars and set of rules. Splitting up an already thin fan base with confusion and competition of other series and insuring purses will not only not go up, but trend down.

Started with the best of intentions, but will most likely be plagued with unintended consequences. The problems with rules are that once in place they then need to be enforced. Easier said than done. I personally don't see how if you wouldn't build your own midget motor that people will suddenly build their own D2 motors.

Car counts will range between 14 to 23. Guys will still buy motors from Esslinger and Honda and TRD and people with cash will still show up in toters and run new tires.

People will get their feelings hurt because they aren't the ones who are getting the glory. Finger pointing and Misinformation will be spread. Many will say that the costs are outrageous. Titanium and carbon fiber parts along with adjustable shocks will be blamed. The motors will be deemed too open and expensive. Eventually new rules and motors will be put in place. In order to get tracks behind the new group they will run for less money.

Just how it is.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

I hope IRS sticks to what THEY did in recent years & still DOES allow restricted "National motors"...Laverne should be feeling a LOT of respect, as, like you said, he was the one to usher in what many forms of midget racing are becoming - 24 years ago!!!

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

There will be lots of racer events in this season for midgets.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

I remember several years ago this guy started a thread on IOW. He said he was interested in starting a new class of Midgets up at a track north east of Indy. He advertised for months it seemed like. He invited all racers interested in such a class to a meeting up in Indy. It sounded interesting so I went. We sat around for a couple of hours and talked about what we wanted and what we did not want. He took notes. He went back home and composed a set of rules for his class, and I am sure the same things were said about him and his desire to get just a little off of the beaten path.

Things were kind of slow at first and he had difficulties making up a full field of cars. He did exactly what he said he was going to do and paid a pretty decent purse. Now his class has grown and seems to be doing pretty good. Who would have ever thought that you could run regular Midgets>Focus Midgets>Eco-tec Midgets and even Mini Sprints together in harmony. Well it worked out pretty good. He has left some open dates in his schedule and perhaps several of the cars that he races could also race in this new class.

This new class does have the luxury of support from other larger racing organizations giving it both Money and experience to get the new class up and running. Sponsors are coming on line, and dates are being set as we speak. It won't be perfect and will require changes as problems arise and then solved.

These little engines remind me of the Motorcycle engines. They are not developed to the tune of the 1000cc motors but then the only motors to rival them race in F-1 and Indy. But with twice the displacement they do not need the sophistication of the little motors. They should be strong enough internally to handle the racing in Midgets and on short tracks with little or no modifications to the internals.

Start them pretty much stock and don't start throwing parts at them until they show that they need it. One of the fastest Eco tec cars I have seen one that is capable of beating the National Midgets motors up at Montpelier is basically stock inside.

Let's give it a chance and see what happens. I know most old school racers are used to patching up those heavy old Midget Motors to run again and again. But all of those parts are expensive. I can buy a 2014 Eco tec for $1500.00 slightly used, much cheaper than a new crank for an Esslinger or other modern Midget motor, and it was assembled under the best of conditions with the best of tools and very highly trained If somewhat focused technicians.

These little motors ain't you Daddy's Pinto's anymore.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

After reading this I fully understand why people would give the finger to midget racing and just buy a 410 sprint car. No hassles....just go race it.

Exactly. More threads on here about rules then races coming to what tracks. Make more and more rules that will get more cars

But you don't see ANY D-2 promoters or series owners commenting....I agree some people post on here that has NOTHING at all to do with those groups.

Exactly. I drove a D2 midget last season, not mine just drove it. All season people asked when I was going to get my own car. I'd just say "Oh, I don't know." In private the answer was "Never, I'm not investing my money in a class that's in such a state of flux."

Now, I've found the right car for the right money so I guess I am going to run my own next season. Going into it with the idea that if it doesn't work out it won't be the most expensive mistake I've ever made and still looking at Sprint Cars. In short, getting into it with one foot already out the door. That's not how divisions grow long-term.

I think it starts out all well-meaning but this constant BS does more to drive people off than anything.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

HUH?

What "hassles" and "BS" are you guys exactly referring to? How exactly are you two being affected, and/or what did I miss?

You bought something that won't be the most expensive mistake you've made, but you already have one foot out the door? Please explain.

Craig....If you are trolling it isn't going to work.
If you cannot see what an absolute cluster it is having so many different rules and variations and then sitting down to make a blanket to cover them all and then invariably tweeking the rules on a constant basis to make sure no one has a perceived advantage vs buying a car...deciding if you want to put a wing on it or not then loading up and go racing....I don't know what to tell you.

Who was it that said "To many rules are as bad as not enough"?

I thought at first this was for stock block junk yard engines both car and bike of varying displacements. Lately I've been reading of engines costing thousands of dollars. Huh?


And as I noted many months ago,it's all about perception. I always think when I read of car and bike engines mixed together of various sizes and weights,then I picture in my mind going to a sprint car race with modifiers, street stocks, and hornets all racing together. That's how I perceive it

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

I never troll Scott. Hell, I don't even know what that is?
I was asking a legit question.
The whole point is to un-"cluster", and have a basic set of rules for all who run this division. I truly don't see the issue about that?
With that said, ALL sanctioning bodies tweek their rules on a constant basis. O.K., I'll give you that Sprint Cars for the most part haven't tweaked too much, but name me 5 others that are not constantly changing something in the name of equal competition?

I truly don't know what your thoughts were when the Focus division started, but that was an attempt to make the playing field as even as possible. The whole point was to use it as a stepping stone to National Midgets. Learn to drive, learn to race, the mechanics of a Midget, how to set it up, etc.. What is wrong with having that again? A starter division for newbies to learn the ropes, as well as place for veterans to still go have some fun, teach the newbies, and not break their bank in doing so.

There are a zillion cars sitting around collecting dust, or only run the Chili Bowl. I would guess the reason they're sitting, is because the cost has just gotten to a point that they can't justify racing more. This division can most certainly help that problem. Relatively in-expensive engines that last a long time, and other rules to help keep other costs in line will only help bring in newbies, and bring out sitting cars. Rules that will make competitors feel that they have, and will have a chance at doing well.

As far as your other post about Toter Homes and lower purses, yeah they'll be people spending excess $ to try and win $300... That goes on in Karting where they run for trophies, it just is what it is.
But, there will also be people like Gage Walker and his Dad. Spent a couple years in the Focus division, didn't try to outspend anyone, learned the ropes, and is now the Montpelier Champ, as well as winning a POWRi race.

The purses are what they are. Simple supply and demand. If there was more of a demand for USAC National Midget races, there would be more than 9 National Midget races (not counting the 5 Midget Week races), in the midwest. Back in the day, and you know this well, there were over 70 races on their schedule. This new division has no affect on that as it is, and, has been already struggling long before a D2 was dreamed up.

I have a feeling an "adjustment" in purse cost is coming from 16th st. in order to acquire more dates, with leaving the few bigger events in tact.
I could go on about National Midget purses, but staying on topic, the D2 will not affect them.
It isn't watering down cars, they weren't showing up at National races anyway. It is not watering down purses, POWRi has had no problem getting races and cars with their purses. It is though in fact, helping the sport survive. The fact that 28 D2 cars show up at Lincoln to race for $500 to win, and less than $100 to start, shows that some people just want to race, feel that they're competitive, and most of all, HAVE FUN!

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

Crankin

Definition of internet troll is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll i don't have all that cut and paste stuff down.

Looking at peoples responses I would say they are pretty much in line. I don't expect a big change from what they are now.

1 Stock head with aftermarket valves springs. no porting or cams or valves allowed. That makes sense. I would suspect they might not even need springs but I guess people want to be safe.

2 basically stock blocks with most people preferring aftermarket rods slightly over pistons. I guess they don't trust that powdered metal. i would rather have a little more compression. If they make aftermarket piston optional ($1000.00 + Labor)>> that simply means that before a guy goes racing he will be compelled to install high compression pistons just to go racing or buy a newer motor with high compression pistons already installed at the factory.

3.dry sumping and oiling changes would be allowed.

4. Removal of balancer shafts would be allowed.

5. ECU would be optional.

6. Methanol looks like the choice as fuel.

7. Fuel induction would be open Mechanical or electronic.

8. There are sure a lot of older midget racers taking an interest in this class but that is going to be a hard sell. My suggestion is put the old motor on a stand and invest in a late model motor and go racing. (Sure not my idea but it seems as soon as you say "National" their volume goes down:) )

9. There are also a few rules added late and I suspect people in the most part did not go back and change their vote to vote for or against them. It isn't that hard. Just go to he bottom of the survey and click on change my vote. Then you can vote over again or even write in a vote. I like the one>>>use an open trailer to tow your car on. Talk about generating interest. Every time you stop people >>will ask you about your dune buggy. That might get the track a few more fans.:)

I apologize to a few of you guys reading the thread. Several of you guys have a vested interest in Midget racing. Some are Mini Sprinters. If it offends you that much>> you can go to your control panel and exclude my posts>>>Simple. We so far have had 35 responses to the survey I think and several thousand hits. Some people are interested. By the way I sponsored the First DII Midget race at DuQuoin simply because I feel so strongly toward this class of car and wanted to watch them race together and they did an outstanding job. I think we might have proved something that race.

They are coming!!!!

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

W

All I can say is if someone believes in it enough to have an opinion of it....buy a car or ticket and go support it. If not...then don't.

At the end of the day...public support for or against will determine the end result.

Re: New DII Engine rules
 

CB

Chris Dang it Kido speak English going back and forth to the online dictionary slang gets old for us old folk.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Dad.... My apologies.... I started to ask a question then changed my mind. It left a "W" on there. No slang on this one buddy !! Just reading while I sit in the surgeons office!