The way sprint car racing was ????
 

After listening to the D.O. show from this past monday....How many of you remember when drivers raced the same sprint car on dirt as they did on pavement, and who was leading the movement toward pavement "only" and dirt "only" ?????

I gathered from my sources that the hoffman team was one of the first to show up at the track with a "pavement" specific sprint car.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject and also give me there thoughts on doing away with pavement sprint cars all together, unless it's a pavement only series. :idea:


Thanks again.... The nameless one :rolling

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

all through the 60's the teams ran the same car on pavement and dirt. I believe it was about the mid-70's(?) into the 80's that the roadsters began to appear on pavement (Sorry, I'm really foggy on specific years). One that really stands out for me was the red #56 Genesee Beer Wagon that Sheldon Kinser drove. I believe it was Galen Fox's car, or at least he worked on it. Greg Weld also had a pavement roadster for a while. It was a blue car. They even tried them on dirt a few times. A guy who did run his roadster on both dirt and pavement regularly, was Lenny Waldo. The car was pink and I think was a Ford. Also, there was a year, or so, in the 70's when Sneva had an old rear-engined Huffaker indy car converted to a sprinter and a guy by the name of Dave(?) Rorhrig that had a purpose-built rear-engine sprinter. USAC, however, put a stop to the rear-engine stuff pretty quickly. The era of the pavement specific sprint cars was the beginning of the end for USAC's supremecy. Teams began folding and car counts dropped drastically at the pavement shows, especially.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Some of them were pretty cool though.....
David.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ter/JetRod.jpg

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

USAC allowed rear-engined cars in sprints in 1973. Sneva won, I think, six features. Others also won. They were outlawed for the '74 season.

Duke Cook ran a roadster at New Bremen in July of 1974, but stuck it into the wall qualifying. Jeff Bloom won at Salem in the Lyle Roberts roadster, and I believe Marvin Carman ran a roadster a few times, and won. I believe these were both in 1975.

By 1976 or '77, the Genesee Beer Wagon wheeled by Sheldon Kinser came along followed by the Jet Rod Engineering car driven by Steve Chassey. Among others.

USAC next allowed upright sprinters to run with more of an offset and it all evolved from there.

Pavement racing in USAC was interrupted in the mid-1980s when Dayton Speedway closed and Salem Speedway was hit by a tornado and closed until 1987. A whole new generation of cars developed after that.
Jim Morrison

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

I remember Late 80s when USAC revived the pavement that it was DIRT sprintcars converted or mulit use cars for both. Some always have but in the early 90s I remember going to Winchester for the first time and seeing Dave Steele in a car that was offset at least 10 inches and a inch of the ground. I don't know much about the pavement. The ORP race I attended was awesome to me mainly because of the wnner and the guy he beat being relative LBurg regulars. The Winchester race to me kinda sucked as Steele lapped up to third.
(I guess it wasn't bad, Just not my idea of sprint car racing)

Chuck, who ballanced some used pavement tires for the guy who won that ORP race to sit in victory lane, be in the photo with a flat right rear :)

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Is the motor in the Jet Rod, pictured 2 posts above, offset to the left?

For purposes of this discussion, what constitutes a roadster (besides suitable for pavement only) ? Eng & drivetrain offset from centerline, thus allowing lower profile ?

That Jet Rod is a great looking car. If asthetics are what they're looking for in a new GoldCrown pavement car - that's the look.(imo)
On a 96" <-> 102" wheelbase, could it be made stable enough to safely race on tracks > 7/8 mi ?

Thanks

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

more on the Jet Rod Roadster:

http://www.oval.race-cars.com/carsol...8/jet-78ss.htm

http://www.oval.race-cars.com/carsol...8/jet-78pp.htm

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

USAC car counts are as good today as they ever where. The pavement races rarely had as big of car counts as the dirt, even when the same cars where run.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see more pavement cars at the track, but they aren't that far off of the average car counts of the past.

The reason that the pavement racing was bigger in the late 80's early 90's had everything to do with T.V.

I believe the beginning of the end of USAC'S run at the top is more to do with short sided decision making, resting on their past and the lack of true direction and guidence. Incidents like Union County are a little more common than they should be and they litter USAC'S past no matter the regime.

I love the pavement cars because they produce great racing because they are purpose built.

Guy's it's like I keep saying, the cost of the car isn't the problem. There are enough used cars out there now that if it was just the cost of the car holding people back, they could get a used one and run well if they could drive and set up the car. I have seen nothing that tells me that a car that is 3-5 years old can't win races today.

The biggest problem with pavement racing is the cost of the tires. A first class pavement team will spend more on tires during the year then what their car cost(All three divisions).
For example: For the teams who ran the USAC race before the little 500 and used both the Little 5 practice and USAC practice to get ready and they practiced on new tires everytime(As you have to to stay fast), I estimate they spent around $3,000(Minimum) for the day. That is a crazy number, but I believe I am probably actually low by about $1,200-$2,400. None of this even includes private tests.

To me, the cost of the car is fine, but Hoosier and USAC should be better stewards of the sport and instead of working together to only fatten Hoosier's bottom line(I know,they give to the point fund. Actually I think the teams pay their own point fund), they should work together to help keep the costs in line as well.

Hoosier is a sacred cow in USAC. Unfortunately in this case, it is the cow that does the milking.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

What I was referring to was the fact that you needed to have two different cars to be competitive during that period, one for pavement and one for dirt. But, you're right, LEADERS EDGE, tires were and are probably the most prohibitive part of pavement racing, then and now. I remember going to Winchester and Salem a few times when there were less than 20 cars. That saddened me greatly.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

As cool as that car looks how the HELL did they get them to turn left with the front end being so long? Almost looks like a sprint car limo!

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

The Armstrong Mould Inc. racing team used a pavement and dirt sprint car. Here is a picture of both the pavement and dirt sprint cars at Winchester. The drivers are Tom Bigelow and Butch Wilkerson. The other picture is Greg Leffler at Winchester. This car won 16 USAC sprint car features in 1977 a record that still stands today.:checkered:

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Bigelow is pushing -- note the haze of smoke off the right front, and also note the position of Tom's hands.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Prior to taking a sabbatical from sprint cars to run Indy cars exclusively (1977-1984), we only had one sprint car chassis while competing against roadsters and rear engine sprint cars. When USAC started running pavement again in the late 80s we were running part time with USAC (1987 & 1988) while running local shows, All Stars and WoO when they were close to home.

Towards the end of 1988 we converted a 87 Gambler dirt sprint chassis to run the pavement by installing a rear panhard rod, shortening the rear arms 2 inches, building a new front axle with coil over suspension and running much heavier brakes up front. Kevin "Pup" Huntley ran the car for us at IRP twice (his first two times on pavement) and finished 2nd and 3rd. This attacked the attention of Rich Vogler and a deal was struck to build a purpose built chassis for a Buick V-6 that Rich would provide.

We certainly cannot claim credit for being the first with purpose built chassis.

As far as the tire bill goes, at an average race we will use 2 sets of tires (RF, RR & LR). I believe the tire bill would be in the $1,000 to $1,200 range for the event. At the Little 500 practice/USAC race we used 3 sets all day so that would be in the $1,500 to $1,800 range. When you are racing for $5,000 to win it is :kookoo.

I would like to see a rule that you can run 1 new set of tires per pavement event. You can practice on used tires and install the new tires anytime during the event. This could be accomplished by stamping 1 set of tires for each team prior to hotlaps. The tires you have on the car (new or used) must always have a USAC seal/stamp.

This would even up the haves and have nots and may even increase the car counts if you can cut the tire bill in half to be competitive.

Thoughts???


Rob Hoffman

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

I agree 100% with Rob on this one. MSA supermodifieds have a similar rule, except after the first few events you are only allowed two new tires out of the three that get stenciled (RF, LR, RR). This does work to keep costs in check...and can make tire management interesting.

My only suggestion is to make the brand/stencil something that is not able to be counterfeited...i.e. a USAC logo or something. A lot of the tire branders use standard number/letter stamps that can be easily duplicated by anyone with a set of stamps and a propane torch.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Sounds good to me. I would think this would bring in a few more cars. :thumb

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

ITS SAD TO SAY ITS OVER! WE RACED READING PA.DIRT 12" WIDE WHEELS ON SAT NIGHT THEN DROVED TO NEW BREMAN PAVEMENT 14" WIDE WHEELS TO RUN A SUN. AFTERNOON SHOW SAME CARS WE CHANGED BARS GEARS AND WHEELS AND WASH THE CARS! ELDORA TOO NEW BREMAN OR WINCHESTER OR SALEM ASCOT TO SAN JOSE 305CI. ENGINES AND TIRES THAT YOU COULD GET 2 OR 3 RACES OUT OF! COST RR PAVEMENT $80 RF FRONT $65 LR $55 DIRT TIRES RIB FRONTS RACE THEM ALL YEAR $ 35 REARS $50-$65 A BRAND NEW ENGINE $4500 COMPLETE! AND WE HAD 30-35 CARS! NOW YOU HAVE TO HAVE TWO CARS A SEMI $ 50.000 ENGINES $200 TIRESkookoo

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Rob,
Out here on the west coast,the USAC Western States Midgets has a rule that you have to run the same RR and RF tire for the entire event(practice,qualifing,heat and main event).We ran at Altamont earlier this season under this rule and only bought 3 tires(LR,RR,&RF) for the entire event. Only having to buy three tires is definately a whole lot cheaper than having to buy at least a couple of sets of tires.

I'm not going to say that this rule has really helped with the car count at the moment,but I believe that there are other factors right now that are affecting car counts,but it has definately cut down on the tire bill.:thumb

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Duke,

I am one that remembers your "good old days". Our 305 engines back then ran about 5 to 6 shows (if we were lucky) before having to overhaul. We get 20 to 25 shows now. That 305 engine in 1970 that cost $4,500 would cost $25,000 in 2008 just due to inflation. But if I factor in the overhaul costs I will be money ahead after 2 years with my $40,000 engine.

Your $80 tire that you got 2 to 3 races on would cost $444 in 2008 due to inflation. I can only get 1 race on the current pavement tire but I am usually getting 2 to 3 races on the dirt RRs so I am roughly equal. We run the same front tires most of the season unless they get punctured or we have a rubber down racetrack.

If you want to complain about something lets talk about the purses. Today’s purse of $21,000 for a sprintcar race would have been $3,779 in 1970 dollars. I am not sure but I want to say they were a bit higher than that in 1970.

Yes you did have 30 to 35 cars but there were only 2 or 3 good cars and drivers that dominated the series. Now we have 10 to 15 good cars (sometimes many more!) at each event and it is extremely hard to predict the top three or even who will win on any given night.

As far as the haulers go, if you have the $$ and want to travel in style why not? But the last time I checked the size, expense, flashiness, etc of a hauler had no effect on how fast the car is on the track. So if someone wants to blow a sizeable portion of their racing budget on a hauler, good for them. It is their money and they should be able to spend it as they wish.

Sometimes a little perspective is a good thing.

Rob Hoffman

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Most of the 1970 races had a purse of $6750.00

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Far be it from me to dispute Rob Hoffman on anything related to sprint car racing. That would be a battle of wits I would be entering as an unarmed man. :doh: And, I'm not sure what time period that Duke and Rob are referencing, but I pulled out the old USAC Sprint History 1956-1980 and opened it to the 1969 season for no particular reason and found that year yielded 14 different winners (Jerry "Scratch" Daniels, Tom Bigelow, Larry Dickson, Charlie Masters, Greg Weld, Cy Fairchild, Al Smith, Larry Cannon, Gary Bettenhausen, Bruce Walkup, Lennie Waldo, Todd Gibson, Sammy Sessions, and Bill Puterbaugh) in 27 features. A quick scan of the '70 season shows 11 different winners, 11 in '71. These seasons were in the midst of the Larry & Gary Show dominance, still there were many more than "2 or 3 good cars and drivers". Other racing seasons, both before and after those noted here would show similar diversity. Again, this may not be within the time period cited by Duke and Rob. And I presume to make no particular point except that from my perspective as a fan, the 60's and 70's were great years (except for the primitive safety measures in force at the time) not only for car counts but for competition throughout the fields as well.:checkered:

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

I recall there was a flat purse rate vs. 40% of the gate, whichever was greater. I could be off on that time line though. It could have been like that before 1970.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

I definatly like Rob's tire rule. I really don't think it will add much more than 1 or 2 cars per event BUT it WILL allow teams to stay around longer.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Which brings up a question that USAC should answer.

Why not have a flat purse rate vs. a % of the gate?

It gives everyone involved an incentaive to put more butt's in the seat's.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

because true usac teams are paid before they enter the gate, toyota, mopar, chevy, ford, pace, red bull,and on and on. It dosen't matter if the race pays $100 or $10,000 to win, these teams will be there.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

The flat rate vs. 40% of the gate won't work today. It not only worked fifty years ago it was very common. The difference back then was tracks put a lot more fannies in the seats. The reasons for that are the subject of another discussion, one that we had quite extensively on IOW this past winter. As an example the late George Brunnhoelzl (father of the man who invented the high speed jack used in NASCAR today) won a 50 lap feature at Freeport, N.Y. in 1957 and won $900, a huge sum for the day. Don LaJoie (father of Randy) won a 50 lapper at Danbury, Ct. in the early 70's and won $2300. Today most short track promoters would give anything for a crowd of 2000 - 2500. The 40% formula will not work again until promoters work as hard to fill the grandstands as they do to fill the pits.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Dwight,

I believe that is called the "add a class mentality". For a track owner/operator, notice I didn't say promoter, it is so much easier and less expensive to add another class of cars to the program than it is to "promote" the existing show and hope more butts end up in the seats. That is why you see 5 or 6 classes of cars running on any given night.

It will be interesting to see what time Twin Cities lets out this coming Saturday night? Six classes of cars isn't my idea of a well planned show.:thumbsdown: I enjoy almost any type of racing but that certainly isn't my idea of a thrilling evening.:sleep:

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

THERE ARE NO PROMOTERS LEFT!:redflag:

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

as a promoter i will say, it is very expensive to advertise to the masses any more. most local newspapers are anywhere from75 to 300 for a add, and you have to put it in so many. Radio is crazy. TV is almost impossible. Hanging flyers used to be a decent way, but now places do not allow you to do it or they have a little board that everyone just walks by. Promoters need to figure out how to use this thing called an internet. my last show was done in an area that had never ever had a show before. Used the internet to get the word out. Had 25 cars for the main class show up, and about 400 fans. place only holds 500 fans, so it was a sucess.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Sprintcar62, the picture of greg leffler must have been taken in 1979 because he drove for us in 1977-78. I think he went to indy that year or 1980 and ran well.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Speaking of "back-gate" promoting, I would like to thank Dave Rudisell for keeping Lawrenceburg down to three classes of cars. He could probably bring in a lot more money by loading the pits up with additional classes but, so far, he hasn't. I just hope enough fans and racers support the place so that he doesn't feel compelled to do that. I do believe too many classes will eventually work against the track and run fans, especially casual fans, off. JMO

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Greg Leffler ran Indy in 1980 and finished 10th driving a Lola/Cosworth.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

I agree. I used to go to Gas City on occasion for their weekly show, until they added a 4th class.

I now go to Bloomington, even though it takes longer to get to their track.

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

ROB USAC WAS AROUND $7000.00 VS 40% OF THE GATE IN THE 60 & 70S! DON SHEPARD BUILT STAHL BROS A 305 CI IN 1966 WE RUN IT ALL YEAR AND WENT TO ST. PAUL MIN. AND RACED IMCA 5 DAYS AND 5 6 7 EVERY DAY INCLUDING A 100 LAP RACE ! A LOT OF CARS THERE WITH BIG ENGINES! AND CHEVY HAS A 370 CI ALL ALUM. INJECTED 690 HP ON GAS THE CAN RACE ON ALCO. IT SELLS FOR $9600.00 AND IF THEY:checkered: GET IT IN A SIRES THEY WILL LEASE IT FOR $6900.00 A YEAR! THAT WOULD CUT THE COST OF ENGINES BY 70%!

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...effler1980.jpg

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Thanks for the number Duke. Based upon the $7,000 purse in 1970 it should be $38,896.31 in 2008 Dollars. We are running for nearly 1/2 of that figure.

Now as most of you that have read my posts know, I am a capitalist first and foremost. There are 5 major parties (Promoters, Fans, Racers, Sanctioning Body and Sponsors) involved with each racing event. If all parties act in their own, best interests they will do as follows:

The promoters should try to pay as little as possible for the product (purse) and charge their customers (gate admission) as much as they can in order to maximize their profit. They must balance the price charged and money paid with how many admissions they will sell and how many cars they will attract. For example a promoter could charge $100 at the gate and attract 100 wealthy, diehard fans for a local show giving him $10,000 in gross receipts. The same promoter could charge $10 and get 1,000 fans giving him that same $10,000.

The fans can decide if they want to pay the price of admission to the promoter or derive their entertainment elsewhere. If they only have to pay $10 and they feel at the end of the night they derived the more value than if they went to a movie, they will continue to spend $10 until they find an alternative which provides them with more bang for the buck. If they spend $100 they will expect something very special in return or they will not come back.

The racers can decide if they want to run for the purse offered by the promoter or race somewhere else. The racers need an incentive in order to get them to travel from their home base. Last year the Fox Brothers and Stanbrough stayed in Indiana while many other teams traveled to PA. They swept 3 or 4 decent paying races and made more money than the USAC teams could hope if they swept the PA tour. But the USAC teams traveled due to the combined incentives of championship points, high profile series and sponsorship commitments.

The Sanctioning Body’s roll is to provide a uniform superior product and charge a higher price for this product so that racers have an incentive to run under the sanction. The problem comes in when the same racers that are the stars of the sanction run at local shows. The promoter doesn’t believe he needs to pay more for the sanctioned show and the fans don’t want to pay more at the gate because they can watch the stars many weeks at the local shows.

The Sponsors are generally business people that make a decision to spend advertising money in order to increase the market for their product. The big sponsors try to calculate the effect of their investment on the sales of their product. In other words if they are spending $10,000 sponsoring a racecar and increasing their net profit by $1,000 but spending $5,000 on an internet advertisement and increasing their net profit by $2,000 where is that $10,000 racing sponsorship going to go next year?

So summing all this up: In order for USAC to be successful, they must provide enough economic incentives to put together a core group of elite teams/drivers, that the fans cannot see on a regular basis (creating demand for their product) so that each race brings a capacity crowd. The economic incentives can be in the combined form of purse money, path of advancement to major series, advertising exposure (to help attract major sponsors) and championship payouts. To see if this model works for sprintcars in the real world please look to USAC in the ‘50s and ‘60s and WoOs in the ‘80s and ‘90s. They will not be able to flip a switch and create this overnight but rather through a series of gradual and sometimes painful steps. The main thing is to set goals and do things to achieve the goals while dropping things preventing achievement of the goals.

Rob Hoffman

Re: The way sprint car racing was ????
 

Rob, Excellent post as always. One thing I think thats being overlooked and I agree, purses should be higher. Expecially back in the pack with 14-18 top teams out there running your series. Nobodys mentioned that USAC has had the 20 dollar gate for at least 10 plus years. You can't raise purses without raising prices. Its not always a good thing but I fully feel the show could easily charge 25 dollars and for some specials 30.

I do not want WOO prices. I personally avoid them just for that alone no matter what show they put on, Im not spending several hundred to travel and fifty for addmission to see a one night show.

I do think a racer with enough determination and skill should be able to make a decent living at this. With all three classes there are a few who can with the sponsor behind the expenses.

Thanks for posting.
Chuck