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The Great Name Debate
I may be currently the hottest topic on IOW. It has been the subject of Rabbit Trails, Mineshafts and Off-Topic Diversions. It's time it had a home of its' own:
What do you call a Midget if it's not a Top-Tier, Major League Midget? For the sake of the discussion, let's assume "Major League" to be POWRi or USAC. Also for the sake of this particular thread, can we agree to disagree on whether or not a chain or a Motorcycle-derived powerplant disqualifies a car from consideration as a Midget? My rationale here is simple; many groups (as outlined beautifully by Wayne on the DuQuoin thread) already consider them so. Also, many groups have already decided that cars like mine (over 1,000 CC) aren't Mini or Lightning Sprints either. For this thread, let's just consider the given dimensions and appearance that we all know and love as the Midget, makes it a Midget. And please, let's just consider those powerplants that are already in use today, no turbos, hybrids or flux capacitors. I started a poll with some of the suggestions already in play, but forgot to set the number of options to mare than 4; anybody know how to fix that? "Just Midget" should be one of the choices at the very least; if I can I'll add it later and you can come back and vote. In the mean time put any other options in your response. Have fun, be nice...:31: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Jim
How did you find out about our flux capacitor program? That was supposed to be a "supper hyper crypto top secret" program! Heads are going to roll over this breach. I guess that is what happens when you hire layed off Pentagon Help?:3::3:;) I also feel that in our quest for Political Correctness that should be "Sportsperson Midgets". NO NO NO Got to scratch Midget also, This PC CRAP sure sucks eggs!!!! Setting up these polls is a tough job, best not attempted by amateurs. We do have some young bright kids reading IOW that would have no problem whatsoever performing such a menial task on a computer. The last time I tried the cut off date wasn't set and the darned thing is still active somewhere. All help appreciated. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Help
We need someone to step up and start another poll with polling experience. I am not too good at it and appears Jim is not also. I did come up with another name "AAA Midgets" (a name once Synonymous with racing). Triple A has been out of the racing business for what I guess is 60+ years now. Since Google map has kind off taken over their trip planning service and their major roll is the Towing business and Insurance, maybe we could entice them back into the racing game on a limited basis as our Sponsor.:16 Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
I'm not bashing anyone here but I'm personally tired of this name debate thing. This is very simple. And keep in mind I use to drive a chain driven car.
A chain driven car is a mini sprint or lightning sprint. Lightning sprint was given to not be confused with micro sprints because they are also referred to as mini sprints by many people. Wing or no wing, it's a lightning sprint or a mini sprint. A shaft drive car is a midget. Plain and simple. Have a Spike with an R1 in it? Don't care. Lightning sprint. Want to drive a midget? Put a drive shaft in it. "So what if you're IMRA?" Well, then you're promoted as IMRA but everyone knows you run combined midgets and lightning sprints. They are not all midgets. Do you see people calling 410 sprint cars in Indiana that don't have wings a different name? No. They're still sprint cars, just referred to in promotions as Non-Wing Sprint Cars (and sometimes doesn't even say non-wing!). Rant over. I've read these posts so many times I'm going nuts. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Josh
I politely requested we not have the chain-no chain discussion on this thread, but since you brought it up... IMRA stands for Illinois Midget Racing Association. They don't market themselves as "A Midget group that allows Mini Sprints"; neither does BAM, or SSMS or any of the other myriad associations who have a more enlightened idea of what constitutes a Midget. So leave the chain out of it for now. Let's have a fun discussion about what we think a good name might be for something running slightly below the ante for an Elite-level race car. There are many ideas out there; AA, AAA, Sportsman, Hobby, D-II, Lite. Come up with something new. I was going to try to put up a post with more choices but I'm getting tired of the argument too. I was hoping to avoid one. If you don't like reading it, well, don't. There are plenty of other choices out there... |
Re: The Great Name Debate
I do like reading it, and that's why I commented. It wasn't really a chain-driven argument, it was simply saying a midget is a midget.
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How many years in a row now are we going to try and change the names of midgets? Until we we make 15 million different groups with 10 million different rules that they just become obsolete. Call them midgets since that's what it is who cares what motor is in it. We already call the Powri Usac cars national midgets. People need to be more worried with how there going to get people to the tracks and getting the payouts to get the guys to come then what we are going to call them.
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Re: The Great Name Debate
My apologies; when you said "I'm personally tired of this name debate thing" and "I've read these posts so many times I'm going nuts", I clearly misunderstood. As I said in my first post, "Midget" should be one of the choices, but I neglected to set the number in the poll to more than 4 and there's no way to change it.
You have every right to the opinion that Midgets should just be called Midgets. In many ways I agree, but as you also said in your post, there are differences in Sprint Cars too, and sometimes the organizers do feel compelled to differentiate slightly; "Racesaver" is a perfect example. They choose a name that distinguishes their group, and further investigation reveals that what they are after is affordable, economy-class racing. To me, that name is pure genius because it delivers the message without words like "econo" or "sportsman" that seems to stigmatize some who choose to go that route, but for one reason or another don't want to seem "cheap" or less than a pure, all-out race car. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Racesaver Midgets! Sold!
Kidding lol |
Re: The Great Name Debate
No, actually that's not bad; I just wonder if French Grimes has it copyrighted...
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by El1teBr33ze: Other than engine chain and rear axle (driveline) what parts do you buy for the "Lightning Sprint"
Again other than the POWER PLANT they are the same and pretty damn equal in HP. The ones that matter are the ones in the stands and I promise you 95% can not tell the difference going around the track. You see Midget or Lightning Sprint....I see "OPTIONS" depends if you want chain drive or QC...Motorcycle or Auto.....and NOTHING off a Sprint car will fit onto a Midget/Lightning other than a seat. Not saying to "CHANGE" your rules or your name just looking to fly under 1 large banner....We are not NATIONAL at all...we are all Regional...but under 1 banner or entity as Division II Midgets we can be. Then once we all fly under that one banner and get a CORPORATE sponsor we would become ....just for giggles we will use IOW as the example....The IOW Midgets....Yet we will be very diverse and we all keep our OWN name as a Regional series... This is not to make it a pissing contest .... the strength is in #'s |
Now we are getting somewhere! That's not bad.... Here's a few : XD Midgets, (XD=chain drive). GX Midgets or Sprints, SS Midgets..... If everyone keeps tossing the spitballs at the wall.... I bet we can find a good one....still like Lightning Sprints!
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by cbaumeyer48: I would have to say Rick at Henchcraft is the ONLY one in the US that builds strictly a Lightning Chassis that is not a converted Spike/XXX/Hyper/Eagle |
"Most Discussed Racecars" .... The most accurate description of what we have right now. Just think of the marketing opportunities there.
Jack-"What are you doing tonight? Wyatt-"Going to watch the most discussed race cars tonight" Jack-"What the heck is that?" Wyatt-"Not sure but they are something to see as they are the most discussed race cars......." Jack-"Damn, I better get a school bus,load it up, and get down to the track because everyone should the most discussed race cars to see what it's all about......" I just may make a hat that says it......lol |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Call them "Midget Lights/lites", post the rules, and hang on! Bob
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Pretty tight battle for the lead between Sportsman and D-II. Definitely Most Discussed Racecars...
Elbows up! Plenty more laps to run. |
Can I just say that as a parent of a current quarter midget racer who is looking for the next step in racing all this talk is very confusing and disheartening. I always thought our next step was to go mini-sprint racing or whatever the hell it is now. After months of reading through this stuff it's nothing I want to get involved in. Thought it might be good for some of you to know that while you think you're doing your sport some good by talking/arguing over stuff on a forum you're actually showing others that aren't involved it's a complete mess. I'm starting to believe those who say save your money on that step and buy a sprintcar. Go to Paragon and learn.
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by ROSS: Your next step will probably be a Mini Sprint formerly known as a Micro sprint or sidewinder. It will have 10" wheels and the driver will assume a familiar driving position. You should be able to get into these things initially for less than $8000.00 There will be lots of people out there Trying to sell you the latest and fastest go faster items invented to date. Then your next step will be a wopper somewhere between $20,000.00 to $30,00.00 for a Semi competitive Midget or Sprint Car. Maybe a $125,000.00 to $150,000.00 Rental would be more to your liking? You will have missed the full size Midget race car with a rather inexpensive Engine and drive train combinations. The cost somewhere around $10,000.00 for a very competitive race cars with handling characteristics and speeds on 1/4 mile and smaller tracks very comparable to the full Midget. Like one guy said you put on the wings and they are faster. For some strange reason we have people that do not want to take on the name of our particular type of race car for what it really is "Midget". Old habits die hard. Whether it be a chain drive motorcycle powered car or a stock block drive shaft car the darned things are still Midgets. Just like a 305 Sprint is not a 410 sprint, but they both are Sprint Cars and people immediately recognize the difference. Why is it that we should be called any kind of a sprint car? Can any one please explain to me the resemblance between a "Mini>Lightning>Sprint and a Sprint car???? I for the life of me just can not come up with any thing that we share in common with any class of Sprint Car. Yeh Echotec does not turn me on either, (sounds like somebody is getting sick) Now FOCUS and KENYON is kind of cool. Anything "Sprint" is not truthful. What you need to do is load up your driver and come on down to Du Quoin and watch a race, those things really get competitive!!!! Warning you might want to steer clear of those Jr. Sprints>:) |
I'm confused Daddy-o. Is it 10K or 20-30k for a midget? I don't race. I'm a fan, and all this is confusing.
When I pull into the track and hear midgets, or school buses, or clown cars (or any division for that matter) are on the program, I assume they are all competing under the same set of rules. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Ross, the stuff on here is only a sideshow and mostly harmless. Come up to Montpelier on April 4th, buy pit passes and see for yourself why we're so passionate about our sport. I'll be there. Come by and say hello. Pat will probably be there, maybe Dad and his son Doug. We're not as crazy as we sound on IOW. Really. Plus, there's a good chance you'll meet guys like Johnny Heidenreich and Robbie Parrish who've been around this sport long enough to be legends, as well as up-and-comers like Austin Nemire, Spencer Bayston and Justin Peck. Then sit up in the pit stands and watch the racing. It will be much less confusing, and you will be encouraged, not disheartened. And maybe, just maybe, you'll understand...
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by addictedtodirt: I did not sign that post!!! It is kind of like Cinderella you got the lovely little step child hiding in the shadows of the overbearing older children. Cinderella (Mini Sprint UKK!!! or Stock Block style Midget can be owned for somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000.00 range. It will be very competitive with the cars it races with depending on the driver. $20,000.00 up will buy a not very competitive Midget or Sprint Car. The debate is between the Mini Sprint guys, and the guys (probably just Me) that would like to be called some sort of a Midget. Heck "Cinderella Midget" beats anything XXX Sprint to me. I also love Sprint cars but just can not equate the cars that we race with them. For the Micro guys wanting to move up to sprints go find a sprint car and push it around a little> There is a difference!! |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Bill Jones's DADS Muffler Midgets.... comes up with a 5,000.00 point fund and crown a NATIONAL CHAMPION. no D-2/Sportsman/AA/Lite
?????? HOW? easy.....
See how easy it is on PAPER or in this case red and white. Good discussion don't know it would happen cause no one in the world today wants to on the same page....Enjoy all the good reads here on IOW! |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by jjones752: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Andrew
My Dad told me something a long long time ago. "Wanting something is much more fun than having something." It is the fight that counts, and nothing that is worthwhile comes easy.:) Is that off base enough for you. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by DAD: I know all about wanting and nothing comes easy. I "wanted" to move to Indiana a long time before I actually was able to,and it wasnt an easy process along the way to getting here. I also know where I am going to go if I "want " to watch good midget racing. The biggest problem you guys are having is the confusion in your posts. I remember talking to an older co-worker a few years ago (at the time) and we were talking about "perception" and how you perceive things. My perception of all this D-2 and mini sprints or whatever else is racing is this: I perceive that if I come to watch one of those races,then in essence I am going to be watching Hornets,Street Stocks,and Modifieds all racing together at once. Whether thats true or not,is just how I perceive it,and it doesnt interest me to come watch it,and see if my perception is accurate or not. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Obviously this subject is getting a much needed airing. Don't stop now:23:
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by Andrew S. Quinn: Probably Illinois would be a better state to live in if you want to watch some good Midget racing. The Midgets have dried up in Indiana the only semi regular show is Montpelier and they run because of the influx of those other cars. We can however handle Sprint cars in Indiana every week and everywhere. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by DAD: I moved here to watch sprint cars. Along the way I've found the midgets in Illinois,and beyond as really good racing,and thats why I dont hesitate to head over there many times each season. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
May I point out that, in the early 50s, ARDC ran Offys, while NEMA did not allow them. Both clubs ran Midgets. Only insiders knew the difference. When NEMA decided to allow Offys, they gave a trophy to the top non-Offy competitors, but otherwise they were all Midgets.
Recently, of course, they changed that stance by inventing an entry class (driveshafts with limited engines) called NEMA Lites. They had to have a separate name, because they run separate heats and features at most shows. As a business principle, a track has to book a NEMA show to get a NEMA Lites show, since the latter is very inexpensive. Now, some number of Lites owners have become disenchanted at being the underclass and have started their own club, called Wicked Cool Midgets. They supposedly have a bunch of dates by agreeing to run without the full Midgets, for a much lower fee. Meanwhile, in Northern New England, we have two groups that are, respectively, regional groups of USAC and POWRI. They have restricted engines (similar to the NEMA Lites), but they call themselves Midgets. All of the above are driveshaft clubs. The zillions of mini-sprints that were orphaned when Whip City Speedway closed down are running with one of two groups in Northern New England that call themselves mini-sprints. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by Dick Monahan: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Dick
Thanks for chiming in we need an outside point of view. That goes back to my other true love "Competition"!!!! It makes everything better, if one class can furnish enough cars and put on a race that the crowd enjoys and will pay to see that lower class will have the upper hand. If they don't they will just disappear. What ever the outcome the fans will be the winners. The race fans in the Mid west are spoiled. We have Sprint cars all over Indiana and Kenny Brown races Midgets all over Illinois. We have a very astute fan base and they want to watch what they want to watch. The only problem is we don't have a lot of young fans in the bleachers. If you went to any race track around Indiana and looked around, you won't be bothered with a bunch of kids running around or young family's. What you will see are a bunch of set in their ways upper middle age old people, who know exactly what they want to watch. |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Very true statement DM....
Bill Jones all jokes aside you have a Lightning sprint...I mean a Mini Sprint .... uh wait a minute? What I am trying to say is IF you come to Florida it will be a Southern States Midget....If you race at Montpelier you race as a Midget....If you race with the IMRA you race as a Midget....If you go race with the PowrI Outlaw Midget Series in New England...You race as a Midget Just as DM has said Those groups have different power plants but are the same car. I had a lil bird tell me that if the car count at the Shootout was no better next year for both Midgets and Lightning sprints they might combine the show in 2017 Like it, Love it, Hate it "WE-ARE-MIDGETS!" |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Wayne
Thanks I needed that. By the way we do race a purpose built "FSC Mini Sprint Chassis". Too bad they are so hard to get a hold of. I keep working on that problem also, but it is just like getting rid of that "Something Sprint" name. :15::15::15::15::15::15::15: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
:44:
:deadhorse: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by DAD: BRP had at most 150 fans on Wed. night for crate late models paying $2000.00 to win Last night he had EXACTLY 91 people in the stands EXACTLY paying $3000.00 to win. We as a WHOLE need to wake the hell up cause tracks are DYING all over the US... What have you guys that are going to DuQuoin need week down to help promote it? Yes I am the promoter and this Gator"DIRT"National is my race but the track does little to promote. I have put 690 miles on my truck in the last week passing out flyers dragging my car all over Jacksonville and surrounding areas in the open trailer and have had nothing but good response. Going tomorrow to the new Autobahn and put my car there. Will also give out over 1000 free tickets Buy 1 pass get 1 free for Thursday nights race. The point is I have done that at many tracks throughout my 45 years of racing cause we need the fans. Now more so than ever. Don't just ask "what can this series or track do for me" look at the BIG PICTURE...What can you do for the Series or Track.... Thanks Bill Jones for Picking up the tab for the trophies next week at DuQuoin. Wish I could make it!!!!! 1 last thing "If we do not debate or discuss it even on these forms, we don't know!" I personally think it is a good thing....we all have our own opinion but I will say be constructive as it has been but if you want change or not, don't just set idle!!! |
Re: The Great Name Debate
next!! |
Re: The Great Name Debate
Wayne
You said it, and I wasn't listening!!! Come up with a group of racers. OK Get a catchy Acronym for it. OK Develop a set of simple easy to define rules or guide lines that describes the type and dimensions of the cars you wish to race OK Then apply the Acronym to the type of car "Midget" you wish to race OK From then on out you are a XXXX Midget with your own set of rules and definitions. OK How about:D Kentucky Midget Sanctioning Association...Midgets or "KMSA Midgets" this would work for any group Your rules define the race car, dang that is simple. Now if we could work on inclusion of slightly different types of race cars? We would all be selling Midget races. If the fans don't like our type of race car we won't force them or hold them there, just send them down the road. Gas is cheap:) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
I just read in the Area Auto Racing News that the ATQMRA has joined forces with the local 600cc mini-sprints. If I understand it correctly, they will all be TQs.
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Re: The Great Name Debate
Originally Posted by Dick Monahan: I beg your pardon, everybody knows that TQ's can not be chain driven, and the shaft drive Honda TQ's sure don't want anything to do with a 600cc Sidewinder. The sidewinders would eat them TQ's up and spit them out.:6::) Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Re: The Great Name Debate
2 classes,starter&push start
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