Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

A certain indoor race this weekend is running an ecotec midget class. Rules have been opened up a bit to allow some low dollar backyard ingenuity to compete with some $12,000 spec engines and such. Great idea right???

Rules have been posted on website for quite awhile. Other than weight, RR tire, and general engine platform rules there is a fairly open rule book.

After hotlaps concluded one of the rules was suddenly changed. The weight rule was reduced by 75 pounds. I have to wonder why.

Now a "sportsman, economy" midget platform which utilizes a production car engine...an engine that weighs significantly more than a national midget engine, suddenly is on the same minimum weight rule as PowrI and USAC.

Was it because the big name cherry pickers were upset that the 10 grand worth of titanium options on their cars meant they would have to add weight? Was it because somebody with a really low dollar car was way too fast in hotlaps? Does anybody know the reason this rule was changed between hotlaps and heat races? And why there was such a drastic change?

I know for a fact that there are guys who put together a very standard car, with no titanium, and light to average size drivers, who were at the minimum weight or 10-20 pounds over it.

Now instead of being a couple gallons of fuel heavy, they are 120# pounds heavier than some of the cars they will be competing against.

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. Don't make such a drastic change during an event. Don't let sportsman, econo type cars be as light as the fastest, highest budgeted midgets in the country. Everybody had every opportunity to read the 2 rules that pertained to the class well ahead of time and make their cars legal. And it has to be much much easier for a high dollar team to add a few pounds to a car than it does for a low dollar team to shave 100 pounds overnight.

I really want to know what IOW readers think about this. Wayne Davis I wonder how you feel about a change like this as passionate as you are about this type of racecar.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

this is nothing new. purse&rules were always subject to change due per car count. back in the 70s it was the norm with one off specials, flaky promoters, locations, time of the year!

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

On the surface, it looks and smells like quite fishy. However, this may be a case of a promoter trying to do something to help the show especially given the weekend that it is racing.

I was quite shocked the first time that I went to my local micro track to see all of the cars doing double/triple duty in one night. Many "A" Cars will start at in the non wing class, then they will throw on a wing and run the "A" winged class, and then a couple will put on a bigger wing and better tires and run in the outlaw class. At first, I thought that they had separate cars until the next weekend when I bought a pit pass and saw the cars transition from class to class in front of my eyes.

For most of us, changing rules at the last moment is something that we don't do. For many more of us, the health of midget racing and "an economy class" is a huge concern. However, given the weekend that it happened I may give it a pass. Of course, if the economy class already had a good car count and this was done as you suggested to help a certain few, then I would agree with everything you said.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by darnall:
A certain indoor race this weekend is running an ecotec midget class. Rules have been opened up a bit to allow some low dollar backyard ingenuity to compete with some $12,000 spec engines and such. Great idea right???

Rules have been posted on website for quite awhile. Other than weight, RR tire, and general engine platform rules there is a fairly open rule book.

After hotlaps concluded one of the rules was suddenly changed. The weight rule was reduced by 75 pounds. I have to wonder why.

Now a "sportsman, economy" midget platform which utilizes a production car engine...an engine that weighs significantly more than a national midget engine, suddenly is on the same minimum weight rule as PowrI and USAC.

Was it because the big name cherry pickers were upset that the 10 grand worth of titanium options on their cars meant they would have to add weight? Was it because somebody with a really low dollar car was way too fast in hotlaps? Does anybody know the reason this rule was changed between hotlaps and heat races? And why there was such a drastic change?

I know for a fact that there are guys who put together a very standard car, with no titanium, and light to average size drivers, who were at the minimum weight or 10-20 pounds over it.

Now instead of being a couple gallons of fuel heavy, they are 120# pounds heavier than some of the cars they will be competing against.

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. Don't make such a drastic change during an event. Don't let sportsman, econo type cars be as light as the fastest, highest budgeted midgets in the country. Everybody had every opportunity to read the 2 rules that pertained to the class well ahead of time and make their cars legal. And it has to be much much easier for a high dollar team to add a few pounds to a car than it does for a low dollar team to shave 100 pounds overnight.

I really want to know what IOW readers think about this. Wayne Davis I wonder how you feel about a change like this as passionate as you are about this type of racecar.

OK >>>> so I went to the site. I clicked on EchoTec Rules. I found 3 rules and rule #3 contradicts rule #1. I like short concise rules, BUT this is just a little too short for even me. And I see nothing that is concise anywhere.:)

These rules take "Well You Didn't Say You Couldn't" To a new level.:);)

Honest Dad himself :6::6:

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Dad....rule number 3 showed up on the website sometime yesterday afternoon/last night... up through noon yesterday it said 1) 1125#, Hoosier RR...2) Drivers must be age 14 or older.... then #3 appeared...1050#, with no change to rule number 1....Oops

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

A quick comparison of rulebooks for related series shows IMRA requires automotive-powered cars to scale at 1100 pounds; Illini Midgets (dirt tracks under 1/4 mile) 1115; USAC HPD (Focus) Midgets have to scale at 1140, so cars that regularly run in these series wouldn't have too much trouble with the original limit.
Glancing at the entry list, the only real "shoes" are Austin Brown and Cory Kruseman; Cory's probably in one of his School's Foci (along with Dylan Ito; George's kid?), so probably not running anything trick.
There's no discussion of this on the Shootout's Facebook page, so it's puzzling, for sure.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

It would be very easy to turn an eco tec into a Mega Bucks tec. New head, piston rods crank and all of a sudden you have a $45,000.00 National Midget beating Beast.

Us liberal types call that being progressive. Of course we would also have to produce a 300 page rule book and hire 5 law firms to enforce the rules. And of course there would be those favored vendors to consider.

Then some old poor boy would invent a 5000 volt leaf motor for cheap Midget racing, then progress would take over again.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Thought I would bring this post back to the top also. Did we ever come up with a reason for changing the weight of the cars? These are neat race cars and have a lot of potential for the budget racers out there if they can get a good engine governor plan put together. If not they will just become a lower cost National program with $20,000.00 motors instead of $60,000.00 motors. Not much help for us budget racers.

Would the winning engine be legal at an IMRA race or the "Gator Dirt Nationals"??

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

For the Gator "DIRT" Nationals the rules are pretty cut and dry. I have an implementation in there for the 166 older motors after Thursday night we might have to increase tire pressure if they become a dominant car with that pkg. I firmly believe whoever you are the rules are written they've been written for 2 months and are the rules that we are going to go by just as ryan partin was DQ'd for being one pound light in the 1200 class. I'm telling you right now if you're 1 pound, half a pound light you will be DQ'd. You will be allowed 1 roll off and back on.

So anyone that is planning on coming to Florida make sure you read the rules or you call me personally at 904 803 3255 so we can discuss it of course there's not really whole lot to discuss it is pretty cut and dry with what's there,simple to the point. As as far aa me elaborating on what they did at the shoot out that is there baby I have nothing to do with that although I do encourage each and everyone of you with a sportsman/division 2 type of engine to come race. Whenever you allow a racer to dictate or you change a rule mid stream it just causes issues. I ask that you take the responsibility and make sure you know and understand the rules before you make the trip. I'm a hard but fair man and changing rules for 1 is not for the betterment of all. I promise you that if the division 2 midgets becomes a national deal that that will never happen! A lot of people give me grief because I add more money to the back. These guys in the back it cost just as much to come there to race as it does the guy that wins.

The the weight rules are chain drive 1000cc-940 1200cc-1025.... shaft drives 1125... there will be no deviation in weight. I don't care how much money you have or who you are it is what it is that's been written for two months. So make sure you bring weight to add or build you a 3/8 steel floor pan that weight 37 pds.

This is going to be very good for Division II Midgets as we go forward and the only guy that can screw it up is me!!!

I promise each and everyone of you this: You will be treated with respect and dignity if your the guy that comes here with a 20 year old car pulled on an open trailer with a tent to sleep in or if you have a 200,000.00 dollar rig and fly your driver in....your all A RACER TO ME

You the weekend racers are what we are all about...this is why I feel this race is so important. ...GIVEN BACK TO THE WEEKEND WARRIOR!!!!

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Wayne

So if I were to get an $8000.00 raised port Esslinger head and put it on my old 166 engine I might have to raise my tire pressure?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Originally Posted by DAD:
Wayne

So if I were to get an $8000.00 raised port Esslinger head and put it on my old 166 engine I might have to raise my tire pressure?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Bill, Let me thinks about.NO!!!!!

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Okay guys, this is my beef, I didn't feel I could say much, their sandlot, their ball and bat.....
I contacted the shootout people by e-mail on more than 1 occasion trying to clarify rules, every time they requested I call their office. (no paper trail?)
My reasoning is we did some unheard of things in today's credit card cookie cutter racing by using salvage yard parts and some good old back yard engineering. They were in my opinion very evasive with answers. The only 3 rules they would really stand on was age, tire and weight.
I have a HUGE issue with the change of the 1 hard and fast rule the day of the competition. Most of you folks reading this do not know me, I think I'm pretty much a reasonable person. I am also a person when someone steps on my toes I say OW.
I went to the office to question why and how they can change the rules the day of the race. The answer just about floored me
"there were 6 cars that couldn't make the weight without adding lead, which we feel is unsafe"
What we had here was some elite (money) teams that in my opinion skirted the rules, didn't build their cars to what I consider the spirit of the rules. Folks, there were ecotecs out there that sounded like a full blown race engine with the rumble and and shake of a national midget. Of course those 6 teams knew the same hard and fast rules I did when I built my race car. By the way they can easily add weight, the other 17 of us could no way in the world could remove enough weight to be close to their USAC/POWRi weights
Again in my opinion they might have shot themselves in the foot as a lot of the true ecotec teams were as disappointed as I was that it turned to what it has.
A kicker as we were on the platform getting ready to go down the ramp I was told we have to disconnect 1 of our 2 cockpit adjusters. When I asked why I was told "it's a rule" I lost my cool and told them what I thought about their rules.
With all that said, we did have fun, and our 1175 pound home built ecotec went from 20th to 9th in 11 laps until we knocked a hole in the oil pan when there was a flip and had to take evasive action and jumped the inside burm.
Mr Davis, I take my hat off to you, a series is only as good as the people running it
Jeff Palazzolo
Pacific, MO

It truly is a shame for rules to change mid day because some high dollar teams are not building their cars to the rule book. In my opinion they knowingly built a light car just so they could have an argument on adding lead weight and it's safety. Honestly adding weight is safe when the person adding it knows how to properly secure it.

We showed up with our two #10s and weighed in at 1120 and 1130. We had a 10# block on one car to make weight. These are Illini Series Cars. The fact that we came in 3Rd and 8th (from the tail of the field) is a victory in our book.

Integrity is everything when u show up at the track. If you show up illegal get legal or go home. I would have rather seen 17 cars roll off the feature that rolled off the trailer correct to the rules than make a change to give only 6 cars an advantage over the rest of the field.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by MWRmgr1010:
It truly is a shame for rules to change mid day because some high dollar teams are not building their cars to the rule book. In my opinion they knowingly built a light car just so they could have an argument on adding lead weight and it's safety. Honestly adding weight is safe when the person adding it knows how to properly secure it.

We showed up with our two #10s and weighed in at 1120 and 1130. We had a 10# block on one car to make weight. These are Illini Series Cars. The fact that we came in 3Rd and 8th (from the tail of the field) is a victory in our book.

Integrity is everything when u show up at the track. If you show up illegal get legal or go home. I would have rather seen 17 cars roll off the feature that rolled off the trailer correct to the rules than make a change to give only 6 cars an advantage over the rest of the field.

That is well said MWR

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Just in case you have not gone to the sssprints.com web page here are the simple to the point rules

2015 Gator "DIRT" Nationals rules:

Must be midget style body hood tail tank
13" tires and wheels only
RR wheel 12" max...LR wheel 10" max...FT. wheels 8"max
OLDER National Midget engines... 8" LR wheel and 10" RR wheel

NO newer National Engines allowed as in Esslinger,Fontana,Toyota,Mopar ect.

Older push rod motors (166 only)
RR SP-4 and LR D-12 only with mim. hardness (Durometer).
Durometer will be determined after I receive the shipment of tires from HOOSIER. I will take the lowest duro reading off all tires and that will determine the number of what it will be
Mandated mim. pressure starting Thursday 12 LR...16 RR....at end of each race.
(If needed we will up that pressure on Fri. night. Must run same tire you start the night with.

2.4 Max Ecotec/Durotec/Honda/1000cc engines:
NO PORTING or POLISHING of Cly. head
Aftermarket rods, piston, cam OK; Must have stock head and engine block No mix-matched block and heads.
Stock Crank, Bore and Stroke

Focus only: 2.0 engines head work allowed. Must have stock crank and stroke
ALL chain drive Motorcycle engines must have clutch and all gears in transmission

Weight:
Lightning sprint - 1000cc-940 after race with driver..1200cc-1040 after race
D-2 Midgets - 1125 after race with driver
166 Midgets - 1150 after race with driver

Tire rule: RR tires will be durometer and must not read under 40 before or after any race.
All 166 will be what a new SP-4 is 65-68 (see above 166 )
NO incockpit adjustment of anykind except (manual brake valve ok)

These are the rules for the 2015 GDN with NO (ZERO) flexibility

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by red70racer:
Okay guys, this is my beef, I didn't feel I could say much, their sandlot, their ball and bat.....
I contacted the shootout people by e-mail on more than 1 occasion trying to clarify rules, every time they requested I call their office. (no paper trail?)
My reasoning is we did some unheard of things in today's credit card cookie cutter racing by using salvage yard parts and some good old back yard engineering. They were in my opinion very evasive with answers. The only 3 rules they would really stand on was age, tire and weight.
I have a HUGE issue with the change of the 1 hard and fast rule the day of the competition. Most of you folks reading this do not know me, I think I'm pretty much a reasonable person. I am also a person when someone steps on my toes I say OW.
I went to the office to question why and how they can change the rules the day of the race. The answer just about floored me
"there were 6 cars that couldn't make the weight without adding lead, which we feel is unsafe"
What we had here was some elite (money) teams that in my opinion skirted the rules, didn't build their cars to what I consider the spirit of the rules. Folks, there were ecotecs out there that sounded like a full blown race engine with the rumble and and shake of a national midget. Of course those 6 teams knew the same hard and fast rules I did when I built my race car. By the way they can easily add weight, the other 17 of us could no way in the world could remove enough weight to be close to their USAC/POWRi weights
Again in my opinion they might have shot themselves in the foot as a lot of the true ecotec teams were as disappointed as I was that it turned to what it has.
A kicker as we were on the platform getting ready to go down the ramp I was told we have to disconnect 1 of our 2 cockpit adjusters. When I asked why I was told "it's a rule" I lost my cool and told them what I thought about their rules.
With all that said, we did have fun, and our 1175 pound home built ecotec went from 20th to 9th in 11 laps until we knocked a hole in the oil pan when there was a flip and had to take evasive action and jumped the inside burm.
Mr Davis, I take my hat off to you, a series is only as good as the people running it
Jeff Palazzolo
Pacific, MO

Jeff

Is there any way possible that you could take 100 pounds off of your car by replacing bolts with titanium, body panels with carbon fiber. I don't think so. the tec people were worried about adding on weight would be dangerous. What they should have worried about was are the frame rails being built out of lighter gauge tubing than any reasonable rule would have required. In the case of Tulsa that would not be a problem, since there was no standard to go by. I would bet an Echotec motor itself out weighs an Esslinger by 50 pounds at least.

Every race organizations should have one of these things http://www.ebay.com/itm/Check-Line-M...item3a94b2621a It is an ultrasonic thickness tester. Many years ago several frame manufactures built what they called their light weight chassis. What they did was replace the frame rails with .049" to .060" tubing. Doing this it is possible to loose 50 or 60 pounds real easily, The only problem was they tended to fold up in a hard accident. These ultrasonic gauges can be found for a couple of hundred bucks on Ebay a little further back in the listings and would be a very good tool in the tec man's tool box.

I loaned mine to a tec guy for an open wheel mod group, he took it to the first race of the year and turned up a bunch of sub par roll cages. His boss asked him to take it home and not bring it back. Why make a rule about how thick the frame should be if you don't enforce it or have no way to check it.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis:
Bill, Let me thinks about.NO!!!!!

Wayne

That is what I like about you. You take a situation, consider it for a reasonable period of time and make your Judgment. I said them Echotecs sounded like full blown Midgets and Jeff actually confirmed my observation.:);)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Jeff

Is there any way possible that you could take 100 pounds off of your car by replacing bolts with titanium, body panels with carbon fiber. I don't think so. the tec people were worried about adding on weight would be dangerous. What they should have worried about was are the frame rails being built out of lighter gauge tubing than any reasonable rule would have required. In the case of Tulsa that would not be a problem, since there was no standard to go by. I would bet an Echotec motor itself out weighs an Esslinger by 50 pounds at least.

Every race organizations should have one of these things http://www.ebay.com/itm/Check-Line-M...item3a94b2621a It is an ultrasonic thickness tester. Many years ago several frame manufactures built what they called their light weight chassis. What they did was replace the frame rails with .049" to .060" tubing. Doing this it is possible to loose 50 or 60 pounds real easily, The only problem was they tended to fold up in a hard accident. These ultrasonic gauges can be found for a couple of hundred bucks on Ebay a little further back in the listings and would be a very good tool in the tec man's tool box.

I loaned mine to a tec guy for an open wheel mod group, he took it to the first race of the year and turned up a bunch of sub par roll cages. His boss asked him to take it home and not bring it back. Why make a rule about how thick the frame should be if you don't enforce it or have no way to check it.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Dad
You are correct sir, there's no way our 1995 Maxim midget could get to the weights they were safely wanting us to be (not having to bolt on that unsafe weight):10:
We (little people) will never win this deal, I am frustrated they took a good platform and caved to the few elite, changed rules midstream, and could care less about what I think is the core group of this class. :15:
I didn't talk to all in our class, I do know MWR who posted above was frustrated and made me happy to see their legal cars do so well
I'm a little miffed that me and him are the only ones being vocal about it.
I'm a firm believer burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me, I doubt we participate there again, however we still had a lot of fun so I might eat those words

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Well the same guy won 2 years in a row.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

I am SICK and TIRED of hearing about UNSAFE bolt on weight...I am really getting pissed about this...Go karters will bolt a 100 pds of weight mostly on the seat (fiberglass) with 1 3/8 grade 8 bolt 2 fender washers and double lock nut them and I have YET to see a piece of weight come off...NO you can not tape the weigh on with masking or electrical tape but you can do like Andy Bradley and his guys did a few years ago when they did not meet weight. They borrowed sheet lead and put it in the seat and when seated and buckled up, that lead is not going any where unless the driver does....I also had lead with 2 bolts and a strap so it could be SAFELY attached and double nutted...

ALL WEIGH must be painted white....this is so the tech inspector can easly look at ALL bolted weight and make sure it is PROPERLY secured...we are not rocket scientist here (well Dad might be) lol...but damn fellows here are the rules....come to Florida...get out of the cold... enjoy our weather... and make your car legal before you make the trip so I don't have to be an A-hole and send you home.

I love these cars both Lightning/Mini sprints and sportsman/division II midgets...we can all race together COMPETITIVELY at half the $$$ of a full blown midget...So from this day forward I will refer to these cars as Division II Midgets...they are the same but a little different in their own unique way!! The fans see midgets or winged midgets and we are all entertainers and those hard working people in the stands are who we need to entertain.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

The GDN race is a race for all Division II type midgets with less HP engines @ 2/3rds cost (stock block/head/crankshaft) and Lightning/Mini sprints that can come together and race competitively. Rules have been established with a concentrated effort on parity. I did after a very long consideration to allow 5-6 166ci "OLDER" push rod motors in older cars from the east coast to come down and race with restrictions. Now out of the blue with only 41 days out some are ******** about it....Everyone had that opportunity to discuss this with me in Nov. when it was announced Nov. 2 for consideration and I said I would make my decision by Dec. 1. A few did as I made calls and did my research....That decision was made and put out there Dec. 1.....Everyone's opportunity has come and gone on this matter...The rules have been said...the rules have been written...The rules will be abide by....so it be written so it be said....

Wayne Davis owner of the Southern States Division II Midget Series....(904) 803-3255 for any answers of questions you might have..

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Wayne...I don't think you need to worry about the older 166 motors. When we had the Ozark Mountain Midget Series going we had such a wide range of engines racing with us that I couldn't even begin to list them all...including a few older Geartes and Fontanas, and plenty of times a 1000cc car was sitting in victory lane at the end of the night. I am pretty sure your harder RR rule and weight rule will be more than sufficient to balance the field out... and the fact that you already stated you may implement a tire pressure rule if there is a clear advantage should give everybody the confidence to come on down.

Keep doing what you're doing...you are on a great path.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Scale your car before you leave for the race track....problem solved.

The 1100lb weight limit is right on for a midget and IMO should be recognized by every midget series in the United States. The 1050lb weight limit caters to the 5'4" 90-120lb drivers. The average weight for a male in the United States according to the CDC is 195.5lbs (180.85 average for male and females combined). So how many race ready midgets are out there that weigh 854.5lbs(869.15 using the average of men and woman)??? The USAC and POWRI weight rule used to be 900lbs without the driver. If you take the average weight of a male in the United States add 900lbs you get 1095.50 (1080.85 for average of men and woman). Now add the weight of your safety equipment and you are far above 1100lbs. So 1100lbs seems logical to me but why not USAC, POWRI and apparently the Tulsa Shootout? Let the smaller drivers add weight.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Ray3
Scale your car before you leave for the race track....problem solved
Unless your sanctioning body changes the rules after you tow 400 miles and paid your entry!

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

My point is there was no reason to change the rule at Tulsa. They should have required the illegal cars to make weight or go home. Rules are rules and they were well published ahead of time.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

when we ran sr champ kart, we had to bolt on roughly 120lb. i started by using 2 plastic fuel tanks mounted on the floor pan and filled with water. the rest went on with the kart and driver on the scales so we could get the percentages the same. when we had the kart built i asked for 4 flat plates to be welded on the frame so weight could be added. the whole procedure was a pain in the ass but the weight was where we wanted it and installed safely. the rules said the weight had to be bolted on with either double nuts or cotter pins. i used nyloc nuts and safety pin type cotters. as far as the weight being painted white....the main reason is that if it falls off, it can be easily spotted on the track. the tracks we raced at took it a step further and made you paint your kart number on it. if they found it on the track, you were DQed from that race and had to get teched before you went out again. ps.....sheet led was legal but it had to be bolted in the seat.

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by Ray3:
Scale your car before you leave for the race track....problem solved.

The 1100lb weight limit is right on for a midget and IMO should be recognized by every midget series in the United States. The 1050lb weight limit caters to the 5'4" 90-120lb drivers. The average weight for a male in the United States according to the CDC is 195.5lbs (180.85 average for male and females combined). So how many race ready midgets are out there that weigh 854.5lbs(869.15 using the average of men and woman)??? The USAC and POWRI weight rule used to be 900lbs without the driver. If you take the average weight of a male in the United States add 900lbs you get 1095.50 (1080.85 for average of men and woman). Now add the weight of your safety equipment and you are far above 1100lbs. So 1100lbs seems logical to me but why not USAC, POWRI and apparently the Tulsa Shootout? Let the smaller drivers add weight.

Darn right man.

Taking it a step farther.... lets assume that 1050 is an acceptable number for a national midget weight rule (being a guy that weighs 220 I don't think it is, but thats another topic).

If I have a midget with the newest esslinger, a carbon fiber hood and panels, all the titanium options in the driveline, the super lightweight hoses and fittings, titanium bolts everywhere, etc etc and I am racing against 20 other cars with all the same high dollar stuff maybe 1050 is an acceptable number....

Now lets replace that esslinger with an OEM production chevy cobalt engine. That engine alone has to weigh AT LEAST 30-40 pounds or more than my flyweight esslinger (an ecotec is a huge engine...it looks like a monster compared to most inline 4 banger midget engines)... how in the heck do I still roll that car across the scales at 1050? That boggles my mind .

Going one step farther. Lets say 90 percent of the people that want to race a midget can't justify a $40,000 engine that needs a few $5-8,000 rebuilds per year. A D2-Sportsman class looks like a great alternative.I don't want a class with an anemic spec motor with half the power of an old fontana, especially when a bunch of the guys in that class have all the lightweight stuff on their cars. I can't go buy a new Spike roller loaded with titanium so this D2 deal is looking better and better. Hundreds of options for powerplants that still kick you in the pants pretty good. Plenty of used rollers out there anywhere from 2 grand to 15 grand in cost. A 2000 Stealth chassis is easy to find, and most hardware stores have just about any fastener I would want to replace on the car for no more that 2 bucks each.

I buy a roller. I go to the salvage yard and pick up a low mileage ecotec for under a grand. I can have it in a midget for another 500 bucks and some elbow grease, or I can spend 5-8 grand to make it work in a midget if I want to.

I get the car running. It seems to run great. I roll across scales 15 pounds heavier than the posted weight rule and life is GOOD. Until 6 cars show up tricked to the hilt and the promoter/tech guy decides to make my car 100 pounds to heavy with a last second rule change.

Guess what....most guys in that situation suddenly have a change of heart. That car they were so happy with gets posted on every classified site in the country the neext Monday...with a tag at the bottom that says "Sell for $4500, OBO, or TRADE FOR A MODIFIED OR SPRINTCAR ROLLER.

We lose people that easily. And now we have a serious grass roots movement for people to actually be able to race midgets. Not USAC caliber midgets, but midgets that are every bit as fast as midgets were not too many years ago. If some guy actually builds a car that can't safely get up to 1100-1150 pounds, he has no business being in this class...at least not with that car. He is more than welcome to put a car together with grade 8 bolts and standard hoses and body panels and come race. Or put a heavy steel floorpan and motorplate in it and bring it...or bolt some lead to it. But to cut a weight rule 75 pounds...to the same weight as all these top notch USAC cars run at, just to allow that guy to race....ridiculous.

When we raced karts my brother was rather small we added sheets of lead to the seat and glassed them in. That got to light class weight then we bolted on the rest for med and heavy if needed

My son races Focus Midgets out here in Washington & our weight rule is 1140 lbs. My son is 146 lbs maybe 155 with all his safety gear on. We run a Beast 5 bar that I bought used. It had Ti bolts throughout, light weight 19 gal tail tank, 36 Spline etc. I replaced all panels with .080, removed the Ti bolts & put grade 8 bolts throughout. Built a 5/16" steel floor pan & triangular plate for battery box to bolt to, 13# lead across the back of floor pan, two 5# lead chunks bolted under seat & 13# of lead hose clamped (3 clamps)to the vertical tube ahead of left side rear axle & 3 gal of fuel to cross the scale at 1145 after the main. I only know of 1 other car that bolts lead on & they also run a thick steel floor pan that races with us. All the other drivers are heavier & to my knowledge don't add any lead. 36#'s of lead & I don't recall the weight of the steel pan & battery mount bolted on my car. We are as competitive as any car here with many fast times, heat wins, lots of 2nds & 1 main win in 2014. By the way, we're the only bar car racing in our group which should make as a tad heavier than coil fronts. Would I like to see a lower weight? you bet I would but there are more heavier drivers than my 1 light weight driver...

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

Originally Posted by BTxpress:
Would I like to see a lower weight? you bet I would but there are more heavier drivers than my 1 light weight driver...

That is a fact right there....it is way cheaper to add weight...Lead on the scrap market is at $.54 per pound so if you need to add 30 pds. it'll only cost ya $16.20 plus bolts so I would say less the $30.00....

but now less try to lose 30 pds: Ti bolts $980.00 for 7 pds...Carbon body $1500.00 for 17 pds...Ti driveline extra $300.00 for 4 pds....$2800.00 for 28 pds....$100.00 per pound...yep that is about right

We NEED the Division II Midgets to help save MIDGET racing as a whole!!!!

Re: Econo Class Catering to Big Money? You Be The Judge
 

As discouraging as it may be, hopefully no one will be so de-motivated as to put their car in the classifieds just because of what goes on at the Shootout; there's plenty of other places to race where the Powers that Be are attempting to do things the right way. The place where I choose to run (Montpelier) has one of the more liberal rules packages out there but you don't hear much complaining because everybody goes in with their eyes wide open knowing that the rules have basically stayed the same for the last 3 seasons and Harold isn't likely to make any knee-jerk reactions. SSMS, IMRA and the new BAM series are a little stricter, but again you know where they stand. For the most part we're all in this for the fun and comeraderie, not to put some Brass Roughneck on our shelf...