king of the tqs meeting
 

Is there any news available from the meeting

Nothing really new, agreed that pumping motors was acceptable if the number the pump comes up with is questionable then the head will be pulled. Appointed 4 people to research new motor combos rules etc.

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

No changes or adjustments to rules for engines for 2015.As mentioned,looking into what changes,if any,for the years to come.

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

If that is a fact, that's good, there is a need to get into newer engines, but not run off all the old ones, if done with a knowledge of what engine you're dealing with, it is a whole lot cheaper for the 21st century tech engines, plus the availability at reasonable costs are here now. I've been running a stock 600cc 4 valve motor since 2005, simply because of cost, and reliability, and it has been competitive. Bob

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bob

They may not like it but I see TQ's getting closer to Mini Sprints or Kenyon racers in the future. The new 4 valve motors are made with light weight castings and won't lend them selves well to butchering. Besides the self starters and gear changes make for a faster race program, something promoters would mostly likely be in favor of.

Tradition is a hard thing to get rid of.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

DAD, I for one do not agree, as one who has "butchered" a lot of these engines, there is no problem with the castings, and I make castings for the Yamaha 600R, to allow direct change over for the oil, fuel, ignition, and the connections for the drive line, from the Honda directly to the Yamaha. I spent a lot of time making this changeover as painless as possible, but it does require some knowledge of working on engines, I really think you're betting on the wrong horse, the TQ was here long before the Mini, and "Tradition" will help carry it onward. Bob

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bob

Your motor is considered "Old School" when compared to a modern 2005 and up designs.. The newer motors are cast in permanent molds and you wont find a casting over 1/8 of an inch thick anywhere in them. I had a 1974 Honda 750 bike back in '75 because a guy had thrown a chain through the crankcase. It was cast heavy enough all I did was weld up the hole in both sides of the block Machine it with a 14" rough cut bastard file and ride on. That isn't the case now days. With modern Ignition and Injection technology, it is time to get on with the program.

Being a relatively Young man my self, I say that The days of Mechanical Injection, carburetors and non electronics has come and gone. I like the quick change rear end idea, that is high tec for me, especially if you have ever spent an hour of so trying to change gears with a chain drive car when it is 95 degrees outside and you only have a few minutes to get in the line up.

I have a bunch of these 200+ horsepower zx10R motors laying around because they have big windows in the crankcase, and they are just too thin to weld up without making a big mess and probably throwing the main bearings out of line. I wanted to make a V8 out of them but I couldn't figure out how to cut that stacked on top of the crankcase transmission off and seal up the hole.

You guys got them High dollar Kawasakis running with you right now (We would consider them to be Old School Designs) You can buy a stock motor right off the bike at one tenth the cost of the high dollar motors replace the sprocket with a U-joint and go racing and out run those guy.

I have been talking for years, the new bike motors don't leave any room for improvements to the engine, They can spend the big bucks on their motors if they want to, but all they end up with is an expensive "Placebo", a big hole in their wallet and some guy with a stock motored car will motor right on around them in a race.

If tradition is so strong why aren't you guys still racing those Tin block Crosleys. ( I can't think of their name right now)!! Somebody in TQ's must have taken a giant step of faith forward a long time ago back in the 70"s. You need somebody to take another step forward in the next 30 or 40 years.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

DAD, the 600's I'm cutting are current engines, with the new tech in castings, and all the new tech stuff in machining, if you know what you're doing, they machine up real nice, plenty of places to drill and tap for plating the cases, and speaking of the Crosleys, and the transition to the Honda, I was one of the first involved in doing the machining needed to adapt them, another fellow and I did one for Dave Norris, about that time frame. I was having a seat repaired the other day, on my Mustang, and the trim guy was telling me that parts for the Crosley are still plentiful, new, and not all that expensive, he rebuilds them for himself, and others in the Crosley club he belongs to. You can talk all you want about the good the bad and the ugly with the TQ, but it takes a pretty savvy guy to build and maintain one, not unlike a full midget or a sprint car, you have to be able to think out of the box, and learn to do stuff for yourself, rather than just show up with your hard head, and drive. I realize there are a lot of guys like that anymore, but I have about 5 guys that are real good at both, problem is, work and wives are taking them away, so I'm looking to do something else, that's why I bought the Mustang, besides, never did have one, had about everything else, even a split window 63 Corvette, but never a Mustang, now I got one. Bob!

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bob

I will have to bring you up one of these zx10 blocks maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

Honest dad himself:6::6:

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

The way the new cases are built there's no need to cut them at all. Gut the trans have the adapter made and done. They are so narrow you have plenty of room for the entire case. We have a '13 kawasaki (Combs) and a 08 gsxr (Blue) running with us and thats it. Comb's cases are not cut and he even still runs the stock wet sump oiling system.

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Thanks for the input Mike, it was done several years ago, with a Honda Hurricane, and has been done since with a Kaw I think, I was just trying to save some room in the chassis, and also be sure the rotating parts would get the benefit of the dry sump oiling, my engine bay is pretty busy, but as I sit here and look at the one on the bench behind me, I could see where it might be easier that way, altho I could still use my front drive setup for the dry sump, and fuel pump, may give me something to think about this winter, everything else is bolt on anyway. Bob

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bad

They just make an adapter for the flywheel side of motor with a new cover with hole and seal in it? What is hard for me to imagine is that little U-joint and drive shaft spinning at 14000 rpms between the drivers legs.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Not everyone uses that little u-joint DAD, a lot of us use full midget/sprint car parts, no more dangerous than having that big old chain ready to chew your left cheek off! Holy crap man, take a breath, does everything bother you that you don't agree with? Sheesh, give it a rest, I for one, have had enough, now you have some of your people looking at the 305 class at Bloomington! Bob!

Yea it's the same as the Honda adapter, I had wayne make one for my gsxr motor that bolts right in where the Honda was same bolt pattern and crank gear for their firewall adapter. Now I just need to make a setup run a oil pump on it. I built it approx 8 years ago was almost finished when we sold our last car. I know on rons car the motor is about an inch higher to accommodate the oil pan

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bad

What do you do with the water pump? I would think that wet sump would work fine and clean up a lot of plumbing. The GSXR water pump is right behind the Flywheel cover in front of the counter sprocket. That would put it sticking through your engine plate. When we went trick and went to dry sump we drove the oil pump where the water pump was but then had to turn around and put on an electric water pump, same holds true with mechanical injection setups. In the old days they drove their pumps off of the camshafts with an adapter welded to the valve covers, but I think them GSXR's use Magnesium covers.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

PS. Sorry Bob

I never got that far was either gonna go electric or use one on my oil pump drive. This motor has the case cut and has to be dry sump. It's an 98 gsxr I had falicon build me a custom stroker crank for since we're allowed 700 by the rules. I started building it back in 03. By the time I got everything in and done I was getting ready to start on a drive system to run the oil pump etc and we sold out. It's been sitting all this time waiting. I wanna do a newer r6 motor now but I figured I might as well try this thing instead of letting it sit any longer. Plus I have a lot of money in the custom crank and Carrillo rods!

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

I bought a 1999 GSXR 600 with 300 miles on it back in 1999. Was putting it in the car when Yamaha came up with the R6. I took the GSXR out and put in in a box and set it on a shelf, best move I ever made. That R6 changed everybody's idea about 600cc motors back then. Kawasaki came along and made it Old School.

Best I can remember back then a lot of 600 and 750 GSXR part interchange I think they just changed the jugs.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

I'll jump in here. I always have flags when I hear that someone wants to help me save money. Like the car dealership that will save me money this weekend by having me buy a car. The best best way I know to save money is not spend it. We Racers are historically very good with math but not so good with Arithmetic. On any given race weekend there are upwards of 50 T.Q.s between 3 groups (sadly) running in Indiana. Given the economy that's really a good sign that the class is pretty strong the way it is. Having followed the 600's in Calif, I can tell you that a built motor will outrun a stock one by 2 to 3/10's per lap which over a 20 lapper is Bye Bye. The amount of money spent to get that few tics is prohibitive but if you're in that class, ya gotta do it, 'cause MY kid is gonna race Jeff Gordon. If a bone stock 600 will outrun the ol' 750, then everyone will have to change over which DOES NOT save Money. Then along comes the guy (and he WILL come along) who has a built one and off we go. Right now, a race ready T.Q. can be had for around 4500. It won't win but you can make an A Main with it. Top cars are around 7500 and up. New motors will devalue these cars and they will sit, which is bad for the group as a whole and for sure, the guy with the old car. I was racing them when USAC brought the Focus in and my cars value was cut in half. I sold my Dennis Hart T.Q. with a Hart Motor and a Barnes dry sump for $4500.00. Be very careful here. YOUR cars value and the class are hanging in the balance.

I don't disagree but the Honda parts are high and becoming more scarce. The Honda is perfectly suited to these cars torque and power range wise. That's why these new motors seldom win but their cost efficiency and setup are only going to get better plus you can build one cheaper than a Honda these days. I love and build several Hondas for guys but their days are numbered I believe. I'll always no matter what have one ready to go in my car if I ever do actually switch. The 4 valve cars are faster at the end of the straight but can't overcome their lack of torque coming off to win on the small tracks we run. The big tracks they are great at. The guys that have them biggest gripes are the cost but they didn't have to make them close to the 700 limit, they could've tan them as stock 600 and been as fast as they are sleeved down or bored up in my opinion

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Ken

You are on to something with the "My kid Syndrome".

TQ racers and for that matter even 1000cc Midget racers are populated by a different type of racer. The old 2 valve motors are getting harder to find all the time, and 4 valve motors are much different in design and construction. TQ racers now use a Full Midget drive train, and about everything else on his car is full size Midget except the frame and power plant. Why not go to a Midget frame. A guy once told me that the frame was the cheapest thing on a race car and I think he was right. So if your front axle and spindles are Midget, your rear end and drive shaft are midget, your shocks are Midget, your wheels are midget your tail tank is Midget and about everything else to include your engine parts like sump pumps and injectors are Midget, why mess with that cramped up little chassis?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bad

Everybody told me when I went from a F-2 Honda to the R-6 it just wouldn't have the torque to pull the f-2 off of a turn. Well with that extra 2000 rpm's I could gear low scream it and sure could beat them f-2 with Horsepower and Gear.

Put a 836 on a race track with one of them 600cc sidewinders and see who comes off the corner hardest. I don't think you can get the gear you need to get a 4 valve motor up on the cam with out a reduction unit before you get to the rear end.

Honest Dad himself :6::6:

That's always been the problem. Years ago some guys built a car with 600 kaw but they couldn't get enough gear on the small tracks. Granted that was before 10" wheels were available which help a bunch. I agree with the ftz guys on the fact that some of the newer motors have so short of a stroke that they don't work well in minis etc. because the power range is too high for what we do

We may have to make this convo private before we give away too many secrets lol

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bad

I just like to get folks thinking a little, "Why Not" and not "that is how we always done it". Maybe we could go back to the 50's when TQ's ran on wheel barrow wheels and tires and we could get the gear low enough. Different wheel and tire size would also dictate chassis changes to compensate for size difference in order to work properly and them little 10" wheels don't seem to work as well as the 13" ones do.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

I know someone whos building a High Velocity Intake for a TQ at the moment...heh..heh..heh

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Mc

You are the guy to get them little 4 valve motors enough torque to beat them old Honda's off the turns>

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

There are a few out there going to newer motors I figure this season we'll 4 or 5 instead of two. Tq's are as close to old school midget racing as it gets no two cars are alike and it reflects in the results. You can't go buy parts for 90 percent of the cars it's more custom! I think that's why I love them so much bring an engineering student and engineer in the past before assuming the family business

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Bad

Agree with you 100%. TQ races are probably the only race group that can supply 40 or 50 cars to a race track. Of these cars I would bet it would be hard to find 5 cars that were constructed by the same frame builder. That in it's self is quite a testimony to original thinking. However it would also be hard to find 10 cars less than 10 years old. A sad state of what all racing has become. Not too many back yard builders anymore and that is a shame.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Totally agree lynch is is about the one that had built any newer cars other thana couple of mid tube beasts that are only about 3 seasons old

Bob you interested in making a oil pump drive for my suki

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

I might be, is it a 600 case, or 750? Was anything said about the weight for next season, I've heard 2 different numbers. Bob

No one mentioned weight. I've heard so many conflicting things. It used to be 625 which my car is under if empty on fuel. Then I've been told 850 car and driver. The case is a 600 motor is all assembled just need to come up with a way to run a oil pump

Well, that's another one, I heard 800 C/D. Maybe Terry will let us all know. I can do your oil pump drive, you going to run carbs or injection? Lmk, I'll catch you on a PM. Bob

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Getting a low enough gear hasn't really been a problem for me, there are parts out there available that will get you there, and it won't take a wad of money to buy them either! Bob

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

A modern 4 valve over-square 600cc motorcycle motor runs well between 14000 to 15000 rpms. Those are the ones that are in production today. I understand that an 836 Honda is happy between 11000 to 11500 rpms.

Using Montpelier Indiana as an example, one of the larger tracks you guys run on. Assuming that a good gear for the Honda would be about "9.5 to 0ne" up there. To gear a 600cc motor to run at optimum power (This is with a stock motor with minimal modifications, exhaust, Methanol and mapping the ECM) would require a gear of at least 12 to One, assuming a 72" right rear tire. Like I said this is one of your larger tracks that you race on. I understand that the midget rear end is not capable any lower gear that about "11.33 to One". To me the smaller sidewinder tire would not be a good option because of the larger and rougher tracks that you run on as compared to the sidewinders, and they look stupid too.

A good 600cc motor produces about 140 horsepower stock, they would make a great fit for a TQ, but because the rules as written, they are prohibited it from working at peak efficiency. The old Honda's are getting scarce but these motors are available for around $2000.00 each all day long. They are the reason for the popularity of both 600cc sidewinders and 1000cc Midgets. Why would a guy want to put $2000.00 in rods and pistons and another $1000.00 in cams and valves then another $3500.00 in fuel injection to build a new Honda, when he could go to EBAY and buy a motor that would out run what he had created for just $2000.00. And when that one blows up which it will after 2 or 3 seasons it is time to upgrade to the newest thing out there.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Dad, if you want a 600c motor. Go buy a micro or mini. If you want a tq motor.. 836.. Then run a damn tq. That's what's wrong with tq racing now.. You got to many people trying to change tq racing and in result you have a lot of tqs sitting in the shop collecting dust.

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

Thank YOU Devin. You guys are making my point for me and PLEASE don't anyone take this personally it is in NO WAY meant as such. BADCOUPE has a Motor sitting that he wants to put in one. It has a custom crank and rods that he spent a great deal of money on. Meanwhile, DAD thinks we should go to full Midgets. First off, these are T.Q. or Three Quarter Midgets, not underpowered full Midgets. Cost?? Ya gotta buy a Midget Kit 'cause the front axle is wider and the pick up points are different so it better have the radius/tie/steering rods or you get to buy those too. Driveline and Tube won't work, the're too short. You need a CUSTOM Motorplate 'cause no one puts 750 Hondas in full Midgets. Do your Birdcages work with the new chassis?? Better hope so or.....$$$$. In NO WAY does that Idea save Money. Another guy is working on a High Velocity Manifold. Great, and if it adds significant H.P. and/or Torque everybody's gotta get one or not be competitive. I have been hearing since the late 90's about 750's not being available. Right now there is a plug and play 750 for sale on IOW for $6500.00. It's even injected, just bolt in and go. Here are 3 cars for sale on the West Coast

http://www.wstqmidgets.com/Classified.html
The 66 car is just plain fast. $7500.00 with spares. SMOKIN' Deal. The 11 car might be my old one as it's a Hart/Hart. Motor needs fresh job for $4500.00. Sign me up!! The Stewart for $3500 is a nice starter car. I know ya gotta get 'em out here but Chili Bowl's comin' so that should be pretty cheap. The problem with our sport is that no one will say......NO. Again, you guys have around 50 T.Q.'s running on any given weekend out here. The class doesn't seem broke so...........:10:

Ken you're right we have awesome car counts. Even if I go to a newer style motor I will never do so without a Honda ready to go. When I first started on the zuki I have way back when I had make the adapter so it bolts directly in where the Honda was, didn't have to change anything. The thing that makes me love the tqs is that it's as close to traditional midget racing as there is. Room to try different things, no two are exactly alike. Granted you need access to a machine shop and or bender to maintain one as a lot of the parts aren't readily available

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

what about putting them back on pavement , setup a tire package like the stars. midgets. i think the guys in florida run a spec. tire too , they also run stock 4 valve 750 engine. been trying to get the wife to move down ,i would like run with them, and enjoy the warmer winters i have seen enough snow.

Re: king of the tqs meeting
 

I wish we would go to some pavement, my car is a drinan that was built just for the pavement, it came from Florida. We got to run it at mt lawn the summer I bought it and it was unbelievably fast until the POS acro rearend locked up. Florida runs the old honda but theyre allowed 900 cc or they run the newer motors but on I believe the 02 and newer 600's must be bone stock no power commander etc.