Indiana 305's
 

I know this topic has been brought up many times but with tracks for sale and declining car counts I'm concerned. I will be the first to say that you DO NOT have to have 35-40 cars on a weekly basis for a good show. What concerns me is, the tracks that used to get 30 cars or so are lucky to get 18-20..... Whats next... 15-17 or less? Lets face it, there are some fans that would not show up for 15-17 cars. This post is all about questions and opinions, so let them fly!

-Could a track hold up to 410 non wings, 305 wing and another support class?
-Would this be a good feeder series for kids coming out of 600s? My thought is, when its time for them to get into 410 racing they would have all the equipment, less engine and shocks.
-Would we see more modified and late model guys jumping into a sprint car?
-We have seen a lot of local guys sell their equipment because the cost has driven them out. Could this be a chance for them to get back into the saddle?
- From what I have seen it looks like you can build a 305 for $6000-$12000 and be competitive. Looks like most guys are getting all season out of an engine plus....
-With less power it seems like tires are lasting longer.
-Race Saver calls for NO adj shocks. Would that cause guys to buy a lot of different shocks packages and cost more than adj?

Lastly..... HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE A 305 WING RACING IN INDIANA?

Lets just remember guys... We are an open wheel state! Without sprint cars I feel like we are going to keep losing tracks!!!

Thanks

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Aren't 305's comparable in speed to a 1000cc lightning sprint? If so then why speed more for the same. Plus with more and more series running the same rules, theres far more racing for a 1000cc. Hell you can even go topless and run with some of the midget series.

I'm just thinking this would be a great feeder series for kids looking to move from 600s to a sprint car and possibly help/save some tracks. I understand there will be a lot of other classes to get into but they aren't sprint cars. A LOT of people would like to get into a sprint car and I feel like 305s might be an option for tracks to look into.. I agree topless is better than wing racing but we might have make a few changes in this economy. Just hope this state doesn't get into a wingless "funk" and let it kill local tracks due to price and car counts.

Thanks

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Most places that have made the move to 360 or 305 do not see that as a feeder, usually guys move down. Use west of the Mississippi as an example. I say run a sprint car or run a modified

6000 - 1200.00 for a 305 might as well go ahead and run a 410 lot of engines out there for that price range like they tried several years back weekly shows need to do away with all the cockpit adjustments and fancy shocks when usac or mscs comes to town its all fair game just not your weekly shows jmo

Why have I never heard any mention of nonwing 305 sprints ?

Paragon has done this for years. U can run an old steel block in an old early 2000s frame with some steel body non adjustable shocks and go out and race and have fun. Or, buy good equipment, get all the bells and whistles and show up with your young 16-18 year old and try and groom the next big thing. Paragon knows and understands, you're gonna all make $100 bucks. So, what you spend to get that $100 at the end of the night is up to you. The purse drives cost down and dictates what cars show up. And last I checked, they get 30+ every night. Even this year.

I don't believe that shocks affect car counts. A set of non adjustable twin tubes is roughly $800. Of course then to be competitive you need at least another 600$ In shocks. Of course the biggest teams will probably be changing a shock every time they hit the track, so they will have more than that. A set of adjustable twin tubes is roughly $1200. A set of gas adjustable is roughly 1600$. With the latter two options, you probably won't change a shock all night, sure you need spare shocks in case of a crash, but you have to have spares regardless of whether they are adjustable or not.

Sorry, but I think this kind of thinking is what kills car counts. Go to a race in Kentucky and you'll see 5 or 6 classes with 5 or 6 cars in each. That is what you get whenever the next idea to save racing comes along. Don't add another class, establish cost saving measures for the class you already have. The impossiblity of everyone agreeing how to cut costs always kills any discussion of real positive changes. It has already happened to Late Models, it is happening to Sprint cars now. The end of big late model fields began with escalating costs and the addition of a modified class was the nail in the coffin for most local Late Model racing. Same will happen when you start adding new divisions of sprints. You'll still get 18 to 20 cars but they'll be in three different classes. Costs ran Wing sprints out of Indiana, it will eventually get Non Wing sprints too. Hope I'm wrong.

I don't mean to say that nonwing 305s would save anything at all . Just never heard it mentioned and wondered why. I personally think on some of the smaller bullrings 305s could be really gd racing.

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Originally Posted by cmiracingvids:
Paragon has done this for years. U can run an old steel block in an old early 2000s frame with some steel body non adjustable shocks and go out and race and have fun. Or, buy good equipment, get all the bells and whistles and show up with your young 16-18 year old and try and groom the next big thing. Paragon knows and understands, you're gonna all make $100 bucks. So, what you spend to get that $100 at the end of the night is up to you. The purse drives cost down and dictates what cars show up. And last I checked, they get 30+ every night. Even this year.

Amen, I bought a car this year, its fast, I am not. I am out to have fun and love Paragon. I get to make just as many laps as anyone else at Paragon instead of getting sent home early with only a heat race plus a few in the "B" when I don't make the main at other tracks. The $100 basically pays for my entire family to get in the gate so I compare the cost of car ownership no different than having a bass boat, swimming pool, or having a kid in travel league ball. The misconception that everyone makes is thinking that everyone is out to make a living or profit from this sport when the vast majority are just out to compete, have fun, and get a thrill. At least that's my motivation.

Paragon provides the opportunity for a guy with low bucks to run a sprint car. I have ran there for 3 years now in all used equipment. Its nice place for a low budget guy to run or begginers get a lot of laps and get 100 bucks to start.

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Lots of good points here, I don't think adding classes is a good thing either. Wing sprints are boring to watch anyway, I'll take nonwing cars anytime. To me it seems that are plenty of classes for someone to find what they like. The hornet cars have gotten popular lately, but they're the type of cars that the younger generation grew up around. Much like the street/pure/whatever stock were 10-15 years ago. If a track that runs sprints weekly like the burg went to a 305 class instead of the sprints they run now guys wouldn't be able to run with big guys when their series comes to town.

Re: Indiana 305's
 

The thread topic was "could a track operate with 410 non wing, 305 winged and a support class" I would like to see someone make this work, maybe even two support classes, TQ's and mini sprints (extreme midgets), make it an all open wheel show.

Keith and Judy Ford have carved a niche in the sprint car field that has worked for several years, racing for fun and/or experience, I believe this could work for the other classes as well, it would require a dedicated track owner/promoter, it wouldn't happen overnight, look at what Harold Hunter has done at Montpelier with the development of his midget class, it's not high dollar, but, it's growing and will continue to grow.

Grass root racers are willing to basically, pay for their own fun and will support a track that treats them fair, In my opinion, I believe the problem with low car counts in this weak economy (,high gas prices, reduced income) is too many High Dollar race tracks and not enough High Dollar race cars & FANS, it's the old "supply & demand" thingy.

Bill May

A wing or non- wing 305 class would be a good stepping stone for those wanting to get into sprint car racing and/or for those racing on a budget. It's not a new idea, it just isn't done in Indiana other states have realized 305 classes provide good competition, affordability, and create a stepping stone from smaller cars to the sprint car ranks without the huge leap to 410's. I would like to see a track start a 305 class!

I have argued for years that the primary issue with decreasing car counts is a numbers issue more thsn a cost issue. Meaning we have more people leaving the sport (for various reasons) than we have coming into the sport. You can do all you want to cut costs but if you do not have sufficient levels of drivers/teams you are going to do little to increase car counts.

So the effort should br focused on getting people involved in our sport on the driver side as well as the fan side. One way is to have entry level classes within the open wheel ranks. It is unrealistic to expect an average person to wake up one day and go out and buy a 410 or even 360. Honestly, as fans and especially drivers we dont want that either.

I always liked the originsl idea/platform of the Ford Focus midgets. There are alot of drivers now in both full midgets and sprint cars that might not otherwise be in the sport if not for that class.

So I think the 305's or similar type class would be great for most tracks to run as a support class. I would have them run both wing and nonwing depending on the premier class. If the premier class is 410 nonwing the 305s run with a wing. If the premier class is 410 wing you run them nonwing. Especially if run as a support class for a special show. This provides the 305 guys with experience in both disciplines but most importantly the fans two VISUALLY different classes. Average fans ate not going to know or tell the difference between a 410, 360, or 305 nonwing. Most will wonder why two classes appear to be the same but run separate classes. I also think that should apply to any sprint show. Do not run two or more different nonwing or wing classes on the same night.

The biggest thing with an entry level class is making sure all the tracks in an area have the same rules!!!! This would be nice for all classes, but is essential for entry level.

Knoxville would b the exception to your rule . All wing 410 ,360,305. How about if 305s were ur starter class they run wing/ nonwing every other week ?

Re: Indiana 305's
 

All very good points guys! As a fan and someone that could afford getting a 305 I like to hear all these opinions. Ive never seen a 305 race before except for online. Do you guys think a promoter would ever consider putting on a 305 race? I think some fans would like to see a 305 race before a track totally changes their program. With the 305 tracks in OH being somewhat close maybe they'd run around here once or twice so we could see what its all about. I feel like a lot of fans around here have a bad thought about 305s wing racing because we all LOVE non wing racing. Id like to see a local track give it a chance.

Thanks

Re: Indiana 305's
 

305's are kind of a double edged sword. With a 305 being appealing to a lower budget wrench, fan, 600 driver, etc wanting to suit up and drive, they're also appealing to the guys who are losing their tail in the 360/410 cars too.

Think of it like this..
I'm currently a 410 owner (wishful thinking). Last Saturday I ran at Kokomo, blew the motor and am now done for the season. Ive got a set of spare everything, and I'm only loyal to Kokomo because I cant afford to haul anywhere else and run. So I hear talk of this 305 division. Just as good racing as anywhere else, and car counts are getting a little better. So the 40k that I was saving for a new 410 for next spring, just turned into 10k for a strong 305. Now, that other 30k goes into the trailer, more spares, another car. More $$ to tow places and participate in a possible touring 305 series across the state/region.

Now I can go have just as much fun, and spend less money. Or spend just as much money, and have more fun.

It's like when the ASCS brought their regional stuff around Arizona. We had the only ASCS Non-Winged series in the nation. All the 410 guys who didnt sell everything when Manzy closed, quickly sold the 410's to the CRA neighbors, and went with the 360's for the ASCS Canyon Region. Then we could go and run Tucson with the wing, and take the wing off the following night/week and run in Phx.

THEN, the 360 engine builders figured out the demand for a good 360 motor, so up go the prices!!! Owners scratch their heads and say "well damn, I could buy a good 410 for the price of a shiny new 360".


I'm not a psychic, but I could see this coming around the same way for a 305 division. Only way we're ever gonna mediate costs is a crate motor. Take the same 602 GM Performance engine that the Stock Car guys run in their crate class. The "Crate Sprint Car" class director for Indiana, Ohio, etc mandates a shock rule, tire rule, and 1 engine guy in the region to freshen the motors in the off season with an inspection stamp.


Just my thoughts...

-Justin

Re: Indiana 305's
 

We have a very strong 305 Sprint racing presence here in PA and NJ. Car counts are good and so is the racing. The RaceSaver series now has 10 areas they are racing in and 700 registered cars across the country. I don't see why and am surprised that someone has yet to start a wingless 305 group yet.

I see a lot of guys and gals moving up from Micros to 305's and then into 360's or 410's. Also seeing guys step back to 305's who once race in 410's too.

I get to about 3 to 5 PASS 305 races a year and must say it pretty good.

http://davidm.smugmug.com/Susquehann...SC_0191-XL.jpg

Re: Indiana 305's
 

I brought this up a while back but now have more information.
The crate engine sprint program is expanding. It started in Ohsweken Speedway in Canada with the 602 crate engine. In their first year they are getting close to 20 cars and everyone is happy with the program and are very competitive.
They are also running with the 305s at Mercer in PA.
Wilmot Speedway in Wisconsin just announce they are adding a crate engine division next year and are leaning towards the 604 engine.
The main difference is that the 602 engines at a $3,200 cost and a no rebuild policy versus $5,700 for the 604 engine that allows rebuilds at approved rebuilders.
Both run carbs on alcohol.
So far the 602 tracks are running with wings and Wilmot will be non-wing but the cars can run either way.
Racesaver 305 engines are advertised from $10,000 to $17,000.
Larry Kemp

The only way I see this working in Indiana would be a wing class.
The market is full right now with non wing cars. There's about 7 places to run them every weekend.
No place will have 2 non wing classes on the same night.
They look to much alike for the fans.

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Originally Posted by 98arpy:
I brought this up a while back but now have more information.
The crate engine sprint program is expanding. It started in Ohsweken Speedway in Canada with the 602 crate engine. In their first year they are getting close to 20 cars and everyone is happy with the program and are very competitive.
They are also running with the 305s at Mercer in PA.
Wilmot Speedway in Wisconsin just announce they are adding a crate engine division next year and are leaning towards the 604 engine.
The main difference is that the 602 engines at a $3,200 cost and a no rebuild policy versus $5,700 for the 604 engine that allows rebuilds at approved rebuilders.
Both run carbs on alcohol.
So far the 602 tracks are running with wings and Wilmot will be non-wing but the cars can run either way.
Racesaver 305 engines are advertised from $10,000 to $17,000.
Larry Kemp

See, 10-17k for a 305? :15: Like I said.. The builders have picked up on the growth: as the demand increases, so do the prices.. Wanna run a sprint car? Take a gander at the classifieds page for good 410 engines, then consider that cost vs a 305.

In regards to the crate stuff, it levels the pockets and playing feild with horsepower. We've got crate stockcars and late models down here in the south. Lots of cars, great racing, and affordable. Eliminates deep pockets for winning races, and allows the technical chassis guys to get creative. Then you go back to winning races on the scales instead of by how much you spend on a ultralight crankshaft.
If I were to crunch the numbers between a crate sprint and crate sportsman monte carlo, I'd be willing to bet the costs may come out pretty close.

-Justin

People need to stop using prices seen in classifieds as a basis for the cost of a class. There are always guys that will overspend, rules or not. There are guys with 305's that cost more than some 360's just like there are guys with 360's that cost more than some 410's. But more and more people take that as the status quo for the class. This type of mentality does not help to get new people in the sport.

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people come to talk with drivers/crew about what it costs to go racing and their reply starts with a "if you have to ask you can't afford it" or similiar type replies. This does nothing to help get people involved.

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Originally Posted by Leohr46:
The only way I see this working in Indiana would be a wing class.
The market is full right now with non wing cars. There's about 7 places to run them every weekend.
No place will have 2 non wing classes on the same night.
They look to much alike for the fans.

That is my thoughts as well.
This would allow some of the smaller tracks that cannot afford the more expensive sprints to expose their fans to sprint car racing as well as younger drivers coming from other divisions to get the experience.
One of our stated reasons for the 602 crate and the no rebuild policy (repairs would be allowed at certified repair centers) is that they are low maintaince and teching is simple and GM will be introducing a more foolproof sealing system with teeth in offenses regarding their seals.

Re: Indiana 305's
 

As mentioned above, rules don't limit spending, racers spend what they can afford. I have owned/raced mini sprints and 305's, the 305's were less expensive, I had less than $6k in the first one, complete (all used equip), bought & sold several cars ranging from
$5,500 t0 $10.5k all cars that people raced and had fun with, some of these cars competed with 410's & 360's and finished in front of several on dry slick tracks.

How much you choose to spend on your fun is up to the individual, I enjoyed this class as I like all types of sprint racing.

Bill May

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Bill May

AMEN!!!

Whatever floats your boat.

Rules that were designed to save racers money usually have the opposite effect. Remember K.I.S.S. and you will never go wrong> Especially in Sportsmen type racing.

Some people race with MONEY>

Some people race with SMARTS>

Some people race for the FUN OF IT>

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Indiana 305's
 

God

I feel old.

I remember watching sprint car races when the 302 Chevy (That would be a 283 CID bored out to 4 inches) was the hot set up. I can remember watching Roy Robbins and thinking to my self how the hell does he hold on to that thing.;):5:

His cars would make the "Sh1t Box" look like an "Agajanian special" and I can guarantee very few of the top drivers today could even make one complete lap behind the wheel of one of them things at racing speeds.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Indiana 305's
 

If you want to see great 305 racing this weekend head to 34 raceway in Burlington Ia. They are having the 305 Nationals along with a MOWA show. 305's paying 2000 to win. 34 averages around 20 to 24 cars weekly some of that fastest 305's around. Good Racing! They have a good rule pkg. and they will tech.

Can someone enlighten me on what is used to build a 305? Is there a preferred block? What internals are used? Alum heads? Carbed of FI? Wet sump oil or dry? Etc just wondering what is used in a mid-pack type of 305? Thx

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Interesting, but if my rum addled brain remembers weren't the cars of the Larry and Gary Show, the Pancho years, etc. all ran with USAC rules with a 305 ci limit. Pretty good racing as I recall. Not advocating, just a remembrance.

Speedway Motors have a lot of parts including the legal Race Saver head. Iron block, aluminum heads and injected. The heads have small intake runners I bekeive. Less air, less fuel and less displacement means less power and easier on parts!!!

I've done some research on parts and here is what I've found: NEW GM Block $800 (Dart little m block $2500), good Scat crank $800 (not a fan on cheap cranks), ring and piston set $700 for a decent set, rods $350-500, cam $250, bearings $200, Race Saver heads $1600. Here is a good start to long block..... Yeah I know guys, there will be many other parts needed like lifters, push rods ,rocker arms, timing set,oil pan etc..... Just trying to give people some ideas of what a NEW engine would cost to build. From what I have figured up I think I could have one built with ALL NEW PARTS for around $8,000-$9,000 with injection. There again some of these prices are on the higher end and NEW. Most of these prices came from Speedway Motors. There are a lot of trucks out there with 305s, ready to be built, for the more budget minded guys... Just a few thoughts here guys. Again this was just a quick parts search. Thanks again for all the input!

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Originally Posted by captrat:
Interesting, but if my rum addled brain remembers weren't the cars of the Larry and Gary Show, the Pancho years, etc. all ran with USAC rules with a 305 ci limit. Pretty good racing as I recall. Not advocating, just a remembrance.

Cap

They did it with tires and exceptional drivers.;)

Can you imagine a modern 410 on them Firestone Ascot tires???:5::5::5:

The sensation of speed is relevant to the competition on the track.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Is there anyone on this board in Indiana that is thinking about building on of these? Just wondering

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Is there anyone on this board in Indiana that is thinking about building one of these? Just wondering

Re: Indiana 305's
 

Okay guy's, we've run a 305, have an engine sitting in our shop race ready right now. You DON"T have to buy all the light weight trick stuff. The key to the whole deal is the heads. You can only get so much air in and that is the limiting factor.
Because you can only get so much air in you're only going to turn less than 7000 RPM, with that you don't have to buy the 4340 crank and the speed parts that would be needed for a 410 class
It works if it is policed.
When our 305 class went away we went non wing racing with it and beat a lot of 410's on a dry slick track. I know all the Indianapolis guys are purist, but it really is an affordable way to race sprint cars (oxymoron)

As you can probably tell with all my interest in the subject I'm thinking about putting one together if a local tracks start running them.

Thanks

More of a fan of the crate idea. If they could get something started my micro operation would go up for sale asap. Wing or nw makes no difference to me. Ran mods and sold out when Kokomo dropped them and price wise I could go crate sprint racing cheaper than I could build another mod or even build a top shelf 600.motor off the bike is about 1000 plus another 2 to 3 thousand in port work, rods, p istons, injection, header, and other go fast goodies or the 602 for 3300 then buy a carb and headers. Prices on parts are relatively similar so it would really be a no brainer if a local track would start running them. I'm sure payout would be much better than the 150.00 that we run for weekly In the Micro s too

Re: Indiana 305's
 

JJ

Did you never try pushing a sprint car by yourself through a muddy pits? You will need a crew for sure and a 4 wheeler. Them thing will drink a month worth of 600cc methanol a night, and then you got them big old RR tires.

Honest Dad himself:6::6: