Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

:usacfan just wonderin' - has consideration ever been given to expanding the National Silver Crown Schedule to several additional 1/2 mile dirt tracks big enough to handle the big cars ? With the few remaining potential dirt miles & limited pavement venues available, this would seem to be a way for USAC to reinvigorate a National Touring series, taking advantage of the number of cars still available & the number of 1/2 mi dirt tracks operating nationwide. How do the costs of owning, operating & touring a dirt SC car compare to a 410 Sprint Car ?

In my region (MD/PA), I'd think that Hagerstown, Williams Grove, Port Royal & Selingsgrove would all be potential venues. It would seem that the novelty of big cars & longer races would attract more of the considerable existing winged Sprint audience, than would just taking the wing off a 410 Sprint Car (like they see every week). Especially if you play up the history, tradition, past driver development aspects.

I'd suspect the same concept could work in other regions with significant existing Sprint Car fanbases. ...just thinkin' about possible ways to win some audience from NASCAR, WoO, Late Models, etc.. ??:kookoo??

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

:usacfanYou bring up some good points but I think USAC should concentrate on getting the purses up to where they need to be before adding races to the schedule. The purses they were paying for the New Gen cars is what they should be paying now. They need to secure good race sponsors or an adequate title sponsor, if not you will only see 24-28 cars per race instead of 35-45 as in the past.:usacfan

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

:checkered:WE HAVE RACED DIRT CARS AT WILLLAMS GROVE FOR OVER 50 YEARS! AND RACED AT HAGERSTOWN!

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Having a 1/2 mile that can handle SC cars is only a small part of the problem. They also need grandstands big enough to support the number of people it would take to make that show profitable. Then you must attract that number of people to your race. Central PA is winged sprint country and NY is modified country. SC is a real hard sell in those areas. And thanks once again, Duke, for your great contribution to yet another thread.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Anybody who's ever banged wheels with the likes of Sheldon Kinser, Rich Vogler, Chuck Gurney, and so on should pretty much be able to post whatever they want on here...

So what if the dude doesn't know proper messageboard protocol. One of his posts have more relevance than ten of Chuck N's combined...

And back to the topic, running more half miles would certianly only benefit the series. More races generally transfers to more cars, which in turn hopefully generates more intrest and potential sponsership $$$$$'s....

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I would think that Perris and Manzanita would be good for back-to-back weekends. Also Calistoga though it's in wing country. That would be a nice west coast swing early in the year.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. They prompt these followup ?'s (just seeking info, not an argument).

(1.) I was at Hagerstown for the USAC Sprint Car races the past 2 years & was headed to the Grove this year when the tornado came. I also attended the SC race at Hagerstown in the early 80's (82 or 83 ?). If there were other USAC dirt races in MD/PA since I arrived in '78, I didn't get the word & missed 'em. (time flies when you're havin' fun :thumb).

(2.) I appreciate that Central PA is winged Sprint country. I watch the PA Posse most weekends from Mem Day to Labor Day. Talking with Posse fans, it occurred to me that the unique aspects of the SC cars & longer race might attract their attention more than a USAC Sprint show - & there wouldn't be the whole wing v nonwing parochial machoposturing deal (with potential loss of Posseface that appears to be a detriment to Posse racing v USAC Sprints, like they do v the WoO/All Stars). There's several tracks that run Sprints throughout the season, but only 3 with weekly shows. I sense that there's yet untapped openwheel market potential here. Also, given the success of SC alums in NASCAR, fans at Late Model tracks might be curious enough to come out & take a look. I believe I heard K Miller on a radio show say they were pleased with this years E swing & were planning to return next season.

(3.) Approx how much more is it to stage a SC race, rather than a USAC Sprint Car race? Approx how much more is it to own, operate, & tour a Dirt SC rather than a USAC Sprint Car ? Any idea what attendace was at the E swing shows in MD/PA the past 2 years?

Just tossing out ideas in hopes that if & when USAC expands again, the first move will be due East - in all classes.

Thanks for your thoughts,
:usacfan:nonwingfan: in PA Posseland

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I attended one of the Williams Grove SC races and thought it was attended well. To make it work in the Central PA area you'll need to run it on a Thursday or Sunday unless it runs early in the season before all the local track get their 410 programs going or at the end of the year. You will also need to get Rahmer, Dewease, Esh and one or two other area hot shoes in cars to attract interest in the local fan base. Also you might try and tie in the program with ARDC and make it a two class show. Running just a 100 lap SC program won't attract as many fans as a two series show. Also I think Bridgeport's 5/8 might work nicely for a SC program, but you'll have to eal with New Jersey laws and that's a bit of a sticking point.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I THINK IT IS WORTH A TRY. THERE ARE FEW DIRT MILES ANYMORE AND EVEN THE 1/2's ARE GETTING SCARCE. I'VE GOT TO REST NOW, ALL THIS SHOUTING HAS HURT MY HEAD.:shout:moon:

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by Offy22:
I THINK IT IS WORTH A TRY. THERE ARE FEW DIRT MILES ANYMORE AND EVEN THE 1/2's ARE GETTING SCARCE. I'VE GOT TO REST NOW, ALL THIS SHOUTING HAS HURT MY HEAD.:shout:moon:

You need some GOODY'S.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I really need some nookie!!!:rolling

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

anyone else think that maybe the bigger type is easier for DUKE to read? never did get to see DUKE race but sure had heard of him.:checkered:

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by randyrad:
(3.) Approx how much more is it to stage a SC race, rather than a USAC Sprint Car race? Approx how much more is it to own, operate, & tour a Dirt SC rather than a USAC Sprint Car ? Any idea what attendace was at the E swing shows in MD/PA the past 2 years?

Looking at the entry blanks- I see the purse is nearly double for the SC compared to the Sprints. I would think the cost associated with running them would be nearly the same, but I don't own a dirt car either.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

For readers that did not follow (or not born yet) racing back in Duke's era, be careful about questioning his racing ability. I saw Duke race for many years. I was at the Hagerstown Dirt Car Race. Jack Hewitt won, Haud was 2nd, Duke was 3rd. That is true! I also recall Duke winning a USAC sprint car race at Orville (Wayne Co) Ohio. Also, he finished 2nd to Dick "Toby" Tobias at the Hulman Classic (Back when it was the biggest race around..60+cars etc.) Toby broke in turn #1 after taking the checkered flag! Duke almost won that race! Duke was always an "interesting" interview at the track...get the fans going, etc. Some fans called Duke Cook the "Clown Prince" of USAC, BUT, I'd be the first to say, that he totally represented what was painted on his race car..."When the Green flag drops, the bullsh*t stops!

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Port Royal would be a great Silver Crown track. I looked bigger than a half mile to me when I was there in the late 90's before they upgraded the stands.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by Tripcrwn:
I would think that Perris and Manzanita would be good for back-to-back weekends. Also Calistoga though it's in wing country. That would be a nice west coast swing early in the year.

I went to a Silver Crown race at the Sacramento mile years ago. It was a great facility and a great race, is it still there? Why not run there again?
David.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by Ovalmeister:
I went to a Silver Crown race at the Sacramento mile years ago. It was a great facility and a great race, is it still there? Why not run there again?
David.

Management at the now named CalExpo track became unreasonable in their monetary demands for use of the facility.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Growing up out in california we used to always goto Calexpo to watch the silver crown cars run. But what was even more amazing is one year they ran the winged 410 NARC cars on the mile and man were they fast. I still have a Snyder-foyt silvercrown shirt from when i was like 8 years old hanging in my closet.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

DUKE & BOUNCE - thanks for your first hand accounts. I was at the Hagerstown SC race too. Good ideas from everybody.

DUKE - How was the Hagerstown track for the SC's (from the drivers perspective) ?
It looked good to me from the stands.

How was the Williams Grove track? Did they ever have SC's there, or just USAC Sprints?

I agree that Port Royal looks like a good potential track for the SC's. Hagerstown's got wide turns too.

How about SC races at the Grove on a Fri & Port Royal on Sat along with just the Posse 410's (no support classes) ? Would the track hold up for both? (run just 50L if necessary). If they charged WoO prices, would it generate a sufficient purse?

Regarding racing the same night as the local PA Posse Sprints, this year's USAC Sprint race at Hagerstown was on a Sat, head to head with the PA Posse running at Lincoln & Port Royal. I think USAC'd have better luck head to head drawing a crowd with SC's rather than nonwing Sprints (just my guess). Do any of the PA Posse drivers have SC experience?

Here's your 3 Race SC E Swing. Thurs Hagerstown/ Fri Williams Grove with Posse 410's/ Sat Port Royal with Posse 410's/ Sun- Rain date. Make em shorter than 100L if it's too much for the track when sharing it with the 410's.

4 race western swing - Manzy, Del Mar, Perris, Sacremento ?

Run a 50L at Granite City Labor Day Sat night, enroute DuQuoin ?

OK - Sponsor plz ...

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Granite City is now a 3/8 instead of the old, big 1/2 mile. And Perris is not close to a half mile, so I'd say it's not big enough for the SC cars. I like the rest of your ideas, though.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Randy, AAA/USAC Champ cars ran an annual 25 mile exhibition at Williams Grove from 1950 to 1959. Troy Ruttman won in '50 & '51, Paul Russo in '52, Jimmy Davies in '53 & '54, Jimmy Bryan in '55 & '56, Jud Larson in '57 & '58, and Rodger Ward in '59. Dirt Champ cars returned for two races (1980 - 1981) and were rained out in 1982. Sheldon Kinser and Eddie Leavitt won those two. They have not been to the Grove since.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

As far as Silver Crown cars on half miles, the biggest key is the ability to sell enough TICKETS to pay the bills.
I remember the Silver Crown race at Salem back in 1988. Rained out the first time it was to run. On the rain date, only about 14 cars showed up and the grandstands were, at best, half full. The promoters cut the race to 50 laps, cut the purse and probably still lost money. And, he ticked off the fans that did show up.


I remember the day Duke finished second in the Hulman Classic. The track was rougher than a cob and and it was colder than heck. Toby's rear suspension broke and he could not even make it back to victory lane, probably only the Hulman Classic winner to come in on a wrecker.
Duke did the smart thing -- finished. Several good cars dropped out. One more lap and he might have been the winner of the biggest sprint car race at that time.
His car, I believe, was No. 48. It was red on one side and blue on the other, so the drunks would be confused about which car it was.
Duke also drove several races in a backup car to Rollie Beale in 1973, giving Beale the shot he needed to win the championship.

Duke might be abrasive at times, but he can drive.

Jim Morrison

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I just wish USAC would go a litle further south during their eastern swing. Virginia Motor Speedway would be a great facility for the SC cars to run for a 1/2 mile. Unfortunately, with USACs lack of promotion along with Virginia being pretty much Nascar country, I don't see it happening anytime soon. And aside from being a nice track, the rest of the facility is top-notch, with modern stands to hold (i think) somewhere around 8,000, plus a nice clean pit area and infield.

I'd really, really really love to see some wingless sprints or SC cars run on this place.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Regarding racing the same night as the local PA Posse Sprints, this year's USAC Sprint race at Hagerstown was on a Sat, head to head with the PA Posse running at Lincoln & Port Royal. I think USAC'd have better luck head to head drawing a crowd with SC's rather than nonwing Sprints (just my guess). Do any of the PA Posse drivers have SC experience?

Steve Buckwater
Chappy Knaack
and I believe Keith Kauffman

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by AERO410SCJA:
Regarding racing the same night as the local PA Posse Sprints, this year's USAC Sprint race at Hagerstown was on a Sat, head to head with the PA Posse running at Lincoln & Port Royal. I think USAC'd have better luck head to head drawing a crowd with SC's rather than nonwing Sprints (just my guess). Do any of the PA Posse drivers have SC experience?

Steve Buckwater
Chappy Knaack
and I believe Keith Kauffman

Keith Kauffman won a USAC SC race on the dirt at Nazareth in December of '82. Billy Pauch finished 2nd to Gary Bettenhausen at Nazareth in March of '83.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by Dwight Clock:
Keith Kauffman won a USAC SC race on the dirt at Nazareth in December of '82. Billy Pauch finished 2nd to Gary Bettenhausen at Nazareth in March of '83.

:thumb ...if the weather cooperates, I'll be watching KK* this Fri & Sat @ the Grove & Port.
Billy Pauch is still coaxed back into a racecar a couple times a year.
Wish I'd have known about those Dirt Champ races at the Grove in 80-81, I could've made those.

* http://www.keithkauffman.com/ --> picture his potato chip paint job on a Silver Crown car.

Thanks to all for playing along with my :kookoo ideas. Gotta think about something besides the pump price on those long drives to & from the races.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by VaDirt:
I just wish USAC would go a litle further south during their eastern swing. Virginia Motor Speedway would be a great facility for the SC cars to run for a 1/2 mile. Unfortunately, with USACs lack of promotion along with Virginia being pretty much Nascar country, I don't see it happening anytime soon. And aside from being a nice track, the rest of the facility is top-notch, with modern stands to hold (i think) somewhere around 8,000, plus a nice clean pit area and infield.

I'd really, really really love to see some wingless sprints or SC cars run on this place.

Agree with the comments on the facility over there. VMS is a top notch place. But....I'm not sure it's a 1/2 mile. Ideal for sprints, but Silver Crown? Not so sure. I asked Rollie a few years ago about the USAC guys also racing at VMS along with Richmond. Didn't happen obviously.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Why not run SC, Midgets, and Sprints at Knoxville over a weekend. They already have a good midget race, why not add SC, and Sprints there as well.

Probably not thought of, but what about I-96 Speedway up in Michigan? That place is a big ol' 1/2 mile that would put on a great race for those cars.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by dwight clock:
keith kauffman won a usac sc race on the dirt at nazareth in december of '82. Billy pauch finished 2nd to gary bettenhausen at nazareth in march of '83.

dec 82????????? Was it cold??? Who car did keith drive? It was no 1/2 mile!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bout 1 mile!

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

The track isn't out east but a place that I think would be neat to see a SC race would be where the midgets are at right now...Belleville. Think that would be a pretty neat race.
Just my .02

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by SUPERDUKE:
dec 82????????? Was it cold??? Who car did keith drive? It was no 1/2 mile!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bout 1 mile!

Yes, it was Dec. Duke and, miraculously, it was 70 degrees that day. Kauffman drove the Pete DePaolo Radio Hospital #58. And it was on the one mile dirt track.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by thebus79h:
Why not run SC, Midgets, and Sprints at Knoxville over a weekend. They already have a good midget race, why not add SC, and Sprints there as well.

Probably not thought of, but what about I-96 Speedway up in Michigan? That place is a big ol' 1/2 mile that would put on a great race for those cars.

Originally Posted by Dwight Clock:
Yes, it was Dec. Duke and, miraculously, it was 70 degrees that day. Kauffman drove the Pete DePaolo Radio Hospital #58. And it was on the one mile dirt track.

I'd love to see the non-wing sprints back at Knoxville. I know they ran there in the early 90s with CRA and around 2000ish with the NWWC, and also had that $10,000-to win 10-lap race after the Nationals A in '03 or '04, but I think a yearly USAC stop would be awesome. I know they put the wings on out there because of guys getting killed left and right, but I reckon it'd be alright now. And the SC cars ran there somewhat recently, maybe around '01, because I remember watching it on ESPN.

USAC sprints ran at I-96 in 1994, and Jack Hewitt won. It was a neat and fast place, but I remember thinking that it wasn't as big as Terre Haute. Haven't been since, so someone else may have a better idea of it's size.

Not arguing with you Dwight, but I have an old Dick Wallen VHS tape that shows that December race at Nazareth National in '82, and I think they call it a mile and a quarter in that. Maybe someone else can confirm.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

:

Originally Posted by Dwight Clock:
Yes, it was Dec. Duke and, miraculously, it was 70 degrees that day. Kauffman drove the Pete DePaolo Radio Hospital #58. And it was on the one mile dirt track.

PLEASE IT WAS RALPH DEPALMA'S CAR FROM LIMA OHIO RADIO HOSPITAL!
PETE OR RALPH DEPAOLO WON THE INDY 500!:checkered:

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

:greenflag:THE 1/2 MILE THAT I DROVE DIRT CARS ON! WILLAMS GROVE HAGERSTOWN NICEST PROMOTER THERE! TULSA OK CITY ELDORA REALLY 7/16- TAMPA KNOXVILLE 5/8 WAS ST PAUL IRP I WAS AT DAYTON WHEN ED ELISON WON A 50 LAP RACE AROUND 55 56 IN JOHN ZINKS CAR AJ WATSON CHIEF WHEN THE USAC TOOK THE DIRT CARS OUT OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP TRAIL ITS BEEN DOWN HILL EVER SINCE! NOW YOU MUST HAVE TWO CARS ONE FOR PAVEMENT ONE FOR DIRT! WHY? I KNOW ITS THE SAME IN SPRINTS AND MIDGETS!!!!! STUPID NO LEADERSHIP THERE! NO INDY DRIVERS ANYMORE IT WAS A BIG DEAL IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS THE HOOSIER 100 WAS SOLD OUT! IF YOU WENT TO THE INFIELD YOU WHERE LUCKY TO SEE THE CARS! SORRY TO SAY ITS OVER NOW!:checkered:

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

:checkered

Originally Posted by Dwight Clock:
Yes, it was Dec. Duke and, miraculously, it was 70 degrees that day. Kauffman drove the Pete DePaolo Radio Hospital #58. And it was on the one mile dirt track.

HOW BOUT JIMMY HORTON WINNING IN MATAKA BROS 3N1 CAR THERE!:checkered:

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I love the SC cars at Terre Haute. I think the track has to be a big half, Perris was a little smallish. I wish someone would buy a belly-up horse track and make another dirt mile either east or farther out in the midwest. The SC could race there. I've seen late models and flat track motorcycles race on Springfield, and they were good shows. The WoO was a terrible follow the leader race on the mile. There are several 5/8 tracks out east. Bridgeport, West Virginia Motor Speedway, and I think Rolling Wheels. Don't know if the interest is there though.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Lebanon Valley in NY is a super fast big 1/2 track and the outlaws come once a year and bring a very good crowd (often the 50/50 pays $4,000-$5,000 to the fans!!) A SC show would draw a crowd and the USAC guys would love how smooth and fast the place is. Im sure they would combo it with a small block mod show for good measure

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

etpro43 and SpfldMile are on the right track - with their tracks. WVMS was always a neat experience, but its been a long time since we went down there. I love the idea of USAC triple headers (especially at knoxville) and hope that it would play well.

The long tracks in the east have a lot of variety in their home classes and the SC might combo well with the local top class. Pittsburgh has PMS which hosts big late model races. I always thought it was bigger and wider than Eldora. Pair the SC with the sprinters at the Grove, Port, Hagerstown or Sellinsgrove would be cool. The SC on a 100 lapper might appeal more to the DIRT-type mod fans with their Big Blocks or 358s - and those cars are a lot more like a heavy NW spinter than an e-mod! Bridgeport, Penn National (RIP), Lebanon Valley, Canandaigua, Fonda, etc. And what about the Syracuse mile?

Now as for pavement - Oswego and the super mods are pretty cool - make the SC cars look awfully slow. I also heard the new bos at New Hampshire thought a Copper Classic type event would be a fun idea.

PS - been to belleville - I know it isn't East, but it's big and it is dirt!

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

Originally Posted by Fisher79:

Not arguing with you Dwight, but I have an old Dick Wallen VHS tape that shows that December race at Nazareth National in '82, and I think they call it a mile and a quarter in that. Maybe someone else can confirm.

Jerry Fried opened the big track at Nazareth in 1965. It was 1 1/8 mile dirt. It closed around 1973 or so. Lindy Vicari took over in '82 and redesigned the track into a one mile dirt. He sold it to Roger Penske in the late 80's who paved it. Penske, in turn, sold it to ISC. The track as it last raced was the exact size it was in '82. And ISC measured it at a tick under a mile.

Re: Silver Crowns on 1/2 mile dirt ???
 

I see. So, was it that odd triangular shape when it was dirt (after the redesign) too? Also, do you remember why they ran that race in December? Was it a reschedule after a rainout or something?