Process of lining up cars?
 

The process of lining up cars for a race has always been a hit and miss type deal. You want to be fair to the racers involved, but you are also responsible for making the race as challenging and competitive as possible for the race fan in the stands. Those are your customers and they go a long way into paying the purse for the event.

1. What is the best method in the race fan's opinion could a race promoter or racing organization develop that would accomplish this rather difficult task?

2. The next question would be what are the draw backs to each method?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Sheldon Kinser Memorial Friday 6/27 at Bloomington Speed
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
The process of lining up cars for a race has always been a hit and miss type deal. You want to be fair to the racers involved, but you are also responsible for making the race as challenging and competitive as possible for the race fan in the stands. Those are your customers and they go a long way into paying the purse for the event.

1. What is the best method in the race fan's opinion could a race promoter or racing organization develop that would accomplish this rather difficult task?

2. The next question would be what are the draw backs to each method?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

This would be better served as a separate thread rather than hijacking the Sheldon Kinser Memorial Race thread by the Bloomington Speedway. We don't need this discussion on this particular thread.

I agree Mike.

Kokomo Speedway has this figured out.

Promoters are fair to the racers by allowing them the chance to qualify. What the racers do with that chance is on them.

Fans get to see better racing because racers must race for starting feature positions during the heat race.


Drawbacks to the draw only.

At every show a fan attends... You always have the big name drivers who are usually perceived as being the "fast guys". The pill draw separates these guys in many different heat race starting positions. Some guys start last row while others end up front row. This is entirely based on the "luck" of the draw.

If a driver gets a good pill draw, they have the advantage over other drivers with bad pill draws before a single engine fires.

This usually creates a feature lineup with fast guys spread out all over the field.

I want to see those "fast guys" lineup side by side for the feature so I can watch them battle for 20, 25, or 30 laps. Kokomo's system accomplishes this more than the silly luck of the draw format.


Drawback to Qualifying

Adding single car qualifying tends to burn up the racing surface.

Kokomo Speedway does their qualifying during hot laps so they don't add more laps to the racing surface and that does NOT burn up the track.

The only real drawback to Kokomo style qualifying format is the promoters cost of transponders & timing equipment.

Well, I just wasted a few minutes of my life. Lol

At Kokomo midget week show they TT/hot lapped sprints 6 at a time . Is that normal ?

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Originally Posted by dirt in ur beer:
At Kokomo midget week show they TT/hot lapped sprints 6 at a time . Is that normal ?

Yes, Each track ran their normal sprint program. However I don't think LPS's was a points race. I could be wrong.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Kokomo does a draw to separate the cars into heats; hotlapping/qualifying is grouped by heats, and qualifying is for within the heat only. This is probably the most fair, as everyone in the heat has the exact same track conditions and it doesn't matter if another flight has it better or worse.
That being said, I've always been a fan of single-car qualifying, mostly because it's the only time you can focus on and appreciate an individual performance.

6 seemed like a lot at once for that track.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Originally Posted by dirt in ur beer:
6 seemed like a lot at once for that track.

They start 8 or 10 in the heats 20 plus in the main .

Feel better mower man ? Did I say something to u to deserve such a response ?

Originally Posted by dirt in ur beer:
Feel better mower man ? Did I say something to u to deserve such a response ?

I think you need to check your emotions. Mowerman didn't say anything offensive.

I'm fully aware of how many start in a ht and a feature . How did that have anything to do with what I said ? Are heats n TTs the same ?

You know the answer to your question.

There's plenty of room for 6 cars to spread out during hot laps/qualifying. It's the drivers responsibility to give each other enough space. If they don't it's not the tracks fault.

Here's my point . This is only an observation and not in any way a suggestion that someone is doing something wrong or that I know more than someone else . My thought on group TT that the cars r to b spread out far enough as to not inhibit each other from running ANY line they so choose . At knoxville they group qualify 4 410s at a time. Obviously this is a much bigger track . When I watched cars running up on each other at Kokomo (6 at a time) I was curious if this was done because of the chance of rain or this is standard weekly procedure. Sorry for wasting ur time and thanks for the lesson mowerman.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

And yes, at Kokomo hotlaps/time trials are grouped according to heats.
Nobody's trying to ruffle your feathers, just laying out the facts...

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I am a product of the 50's. That makes me a younger old fart. Things always look better in the past than present because the mind filters out what it doesn't like. I remember 3 lap qualifying for every race. I remember guys with a hand held stop watch clocking each car and knowing to myself that they had to be short timing their favorite driver. I remember inverted starts with the fastest qualifier always starting on the tail of the race. I remember saying that "so and so" was sandbagging just to get a better starting position for the feature.

I also remember some very exciting and hard fought races. Old Elmer Davis once told me that the cars toward the back were easy to pass but as you moved up they became increasing hard to get around and he was very correct.

We are actually selling a product to the people buying tickets and coming in the front gate. Lately racers have taken a "Back Gate" mentality about their racing. By that I mean starting the best on the pole only to walk away with the race and sometime making a very boring show right from the drop of the green flag.

I can't think of anything more exciting than racing and leading the entire field in a race, be it one single lap or 20 laps. I can also think of nothing more satisfying than starting back in the field and fighting your way to the front, you may not get all the way to the winner's spot, but at the end of the race you know that you gave it all you could do.

In turn the fans got a chance to watch a very good race with the same ultra fast "HOT SHOES" fighting against them selves and the other racers on the track for that prized position.

We race in what some feel to be a lower class race car. I call them 1000cc Midgets, while other call them Mini-Lightning Sprints. I call them something I can afford to race (most of the time) that are probably on of the fastest cars racing at whatever particular track we are racing.

I have heard racers talking about the problems of how the invert starting of the heat race winners is not fair to the heat race winners. I like the idea of inverting the whole race and drawing for the starting positions of the last two rows instead of the first two rows.

I have even thought of the idea of just running two features and leaving the heat races out of the equation all together.

You would still draw pills. I know guys that always draw low pill numbers, they are the same ones that always out qualify us too. I ain't never figured that one out.

The low pill would start on the pole of feature #1. He would then start on the tail of feature #2. You now have the chance for two feature winners for each race. Ain't nothing better than being a feature winner. However the pay out would be figured by passing points for those professional racers out there. It would be possible to win a feature but maybe only finish further back in the passing points, but that's OK I still won a feature and I really like that trophy much more than that money that I will probably put in the gas tank to get home anyhow. And I'll have a lifetime of sanctification listing to the old lady complaining about dusting the dumb thing.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Coming form a dirt karting back ground, this is how most local tracks would figure line ups. Pill draw when you signed in for a class, then run your first heat per class, then invert the entire field and run a second heat. Average finish would set feature line up. However I understand that this is for the most part unfeasible for larger cars which tend to have 3+ heats only running one round. This would make for a very long dragging night, and it would also tear a track to pieces by the end of the final feature. I only bring it up as another possible idea to be considered and interpreted.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

9

There are all kinds of way to do things. Maybe the pill draw then heat finish and invert so many cars is the best way. Like I said qualifying for positions and inversion was great, but there was sandbagging going on and that screwed thing up. Then they started DQ ing racers that raced so many tenths faster than they qualified, that caused even bigger fights, then the inversion thing came about and we have been racing that way for more than 30 years or so.

Leaving the racer out of the equation what would make a better race for the fans watching the racing action?

I thought about two way radios for the drivers so that they could do like professional wrestlers do and radio the guy in front and say hey I need to give you a slide job coming out of turn four so slow down a little and I'll let you drive around me on the top of the next lap.

Isn't that what being a professional is?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I don't really understand why or how qualifying was standard operating procedure around here for so long, and they seemed to still put on great races back then.. But now days, it kills the track and kills the racing? Every top tier racing organization still qualifies, and puts on great racing, in front of big crowds. Sprint week and midget week usually puts on the best races of the year, and they qualify. So why did it stop in the first place?

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

The answer to Caseys question is they went to five classes and took the qualifying and dash's away to allow time for it.

Sad but true.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Back in the "good old days" when you went to a Sprint Car race, that's what you got; Sprint Cars. One class equalled fewer cars to beat the track up, and back in the really old good old days the tires were narrower so they didn't pack the track down like they do now.
At Ascot, before the days of curfews and 5 classes in one night, qualifying didn't start until around the time the heats are wrapping up now; starting later meant the track stayed heavy all night. One class meant you could start later and still be done without even worrying about a curfew. And have a Trophy Dash. And a Consi. And a Rookie Race. So, qualifying didn't "drag out the show", it was part of the show.
To Casey's point, Sprint and Midget Weeks usually only include one or two support classes, as do most USAC stand-alone shows, so it stands to reason that the tracks stay in better shape even with time trials and the racing benefits from that.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I always remember two or three classes, However when they hotlapped the track was wet and any wheel packing was done by the cars themselves. Qualifying would start out one line and widen out as the heats went on. By feature time it was usually pretty wide. If there was holes in the track, there were holes. you went around or through em, not the super groomed five time reworked tracks we have now.

If it got dusty, they threw a few bags of calcium on it.

Originally Posted by cshuman:
I don't really understand why or how qualifying was standard operating procedure around here for so long, and they seemed to still put on great races back then.. But now days, it kills the track and kills the racing? Every top tier racing organization still qualifies, and puts on great racing, in front of big crowds. Sprint week and midget week usually puts on the best races of the year, and they qualify. So why did it stop in the first place?

Now Shuman, there is no need for you to be on here making perfect sense.....

Haha, well I had more typed up, with my thoughts on why it all took place, but some people might be too sensitive to hear them :)

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
I always remember two or three classes, However when they hotlapped the track was wet and any wheel packing was done by the cars themselves. Qualifying would start out one line and widen out as the heats went on. By feature time it was usually pretty wide. If there was holes in the track, there were holes. you went around or through em, not the super groomed five time reworked tracks we have now.

If it got dusty, they threw a few bags of calcium on it.

Ascot had 5 classes; Offroad on Wednesday, Modifieds on Thursday, Flat Track on Friday, Sprint Cars on Saturday and Supers and Figure-8's on Sunday afternoons on Channel 5.
and it NEVER got dusty. Rico Hawkes saw to that...

When I was helping Brian Hayden 2000-2004. All tracks qualified except for the KISS series events.

Hayden broke his brain in 2004, so we stopped racing then. It changed sometime after that.

I'm gonna put it best I can and hope it's 100% but don't quote me . For midget week Kokomo had 30 sprints and 36 midgets. Midgets did single car. Sprints draw for there groups. In this night was. 3 of 10 cars. They all get 4 laps to record their best lap with all 10 cars spread out as was only 3 groups. Their group is also their heat. Here is where I'm not 100% I think they do a 4 invert for heats. And top 5 transferred to the A. Top 2 in each heat re draw for their starting spot in feature. They took 5 out of a 15 car b main for 12 laps and started 20 car feature for 25 laps. Yes each sprint and midget was on a transponder

From here on out. This is what's gonna happen. All 20 feature staters will line up 10 on one side, 10 on the other and Rock Paper Scissors. The ten left will then split into 5 and 5 and take turns kicking each other in the shins until one falls over. The remaining five will then have a dance off to see who starts 1-5.

#newschool

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

If memory serves me correctly, and it often doesn't, most tracks in Indiana dropped qualifying when Mitch added an extra hour of sunlight for them to deal with.

Originally Posted by Chris Nunn:
From here on out. This is what's gonna happen. All 20 feature staters will line up 10 on one side, 10 on the other and Rock Paper Scissors. The ten left will then split into 5 and 5 and take turns kicking each other in the shins until one falls over. The remaining five will then have a dance off to see who starts 1-5.

#newschool

Makes more sense than passing points at some tracks haha

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I say have a Hell in the Cell match on the front straight, The longer you last the further forward you start.

This solves two problems. Sets the lineup and elimnates fighting after the events.

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I grew up in New England and the majority of the tracks used a handicapping system (and I believe several still do) for their weekly shows. It provided for entertaining racing and, generally, a fair amount of passing. I certainly understand from a racer's point of view why they would like to start closer to the front but, strictly from a fan's point of view, I think starting the cars that have had more success in recent weeks in the back makes for a more exciting show.

Dan Nelson

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I like the idea of starting the race by position in points if the competitor is a regular racer. However we also have guys that don't give a hoot about points and just go to race ever so often, should they too be started in front of the regulars?

Racing should be an entertainment venue. We also need people in the stands, what do we as racers or promoters need to do to fill up the stands. I became friends with the promoter that used to bring the Monster trucks to town. He would spend $6,000.00 + on a two week TV add campaign a couple of weeks before the shows, and it worked. Race promoters can't afford that kind of expense. There is also the philosophy that the best advertising is word of mouth. That requires that we constantly give the fans an exciting and economical night out. As racers we can do that by making the racing as exciting as possible, (that doesn't include flipping out of the race track). I know a lot of times the race doesn't get exciting until lap traffic comes into play, and by that times things have thinned out enough that that sometimes isn't too exciting either.

I hear guys talk about those big tracks and the thrill of speed for the driver. The fan sitting up in the stands does not get that same feeling when the race is running and the cars are strung out like a big old freight train. Lawrenceburg would be a good example of a track growing up and out. The old track basically round with a straight wherever a driver decided to make it was an exciting race tack, not because of the speed but the proximity of the cars to one another. Now it is a much faster track, well suited for 410 sprints if the owners can afford the money for a big HP motor, but the other classes are way out of place. When I was a kid Big Salem, Winchester and Dayton were the Super Speedway for Sprint cars, with most of the other races run on smaller tracks that surrounded them. When we thought of Sprint Car, they were special, they was "USAC" all other racers raced Modified that Morphed into the modern day sprint car. Guys raced for years in modified dreaming of the day of getting a Sprint Car Ride. That was a big step toward Indy.

We need to work on that three wide type of racing that the little Bull Rings tracks can provide. We need to get more passing in the races, maybe just a little wheel rubbing, so that when the fan goes back to work the next Monday they tell their fellow workers what a great time they had and invite them to join them the next week.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

As for me, KISS, make it as simple, and fair as possible, I prefer to qualify, gives me one more shot at the track, but it does wear out the track, pill draw is about as simple as it gets, if they don't get carried away after that, and, after all, that's really what the heat races and semi's are for, let you race your way into the feature, all the passing points do is confuse everyone in the stands, that's where all the arguments come from, the guys in the race cars want to race, that's when they find out who is the winner, and hopefully that gets passed around a lot, brings more cars and drivers! Bob

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

In MY Perfect World, for the first 3 races of the season, we would line up the Heats by pill draw and use the ASCS passing points system for the Feature.
After the 3 race, the Heats would be set with Fully Inverted Season Points standings and use the ASCS passing points system for the Feature. Anyone with less than 3 shows recorded would start at the back.

Someone suggested the Kart system of 2 Heats & a Feature. We did that at North Central Speedway in Brainerd, MN last season with the UMSS Traditional Sprint Car Series due to a poor car count. The fans liked it because they got to see 4 Heats & a Feature instead of what would have been, due to our normal procedure, 1 Heat & a Feature. We liked it because we got to more laps, which made the 300 mile round trip more worthwhile.

steiny
:32:

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

I say start them the way they line up to get pushed off,sure would speed the show up!!

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

Re: Process of lining up cars?
 

The problem lies in the quality of talent on a track to track basis. Lets face it, most tracks in the midwest just don't have loaded fields that places like Kokomo or Eldora have. There are WAY WAY more "have-nots" than "haves" in local racing.

If you have a field of top tier equipment and talent, then you really don't need any kind of inversion system and drivers should be able to earn their way forward all night.

Now if we go to Joe Blow Speedway and they have 20 cars, but only 5 real contenders, then you need an inversion system. Problem with inversions is that drivers lose their incentive to "RACE" in the heats. Noone pays heat races anymore... and they should.

The answer is, there is no universal answer. It will always be something that changes based on the circumstances of each individual track.