Motor Rules
 

I have a question on the motor rules and please correct me if I am wrong. POWRI and USAC both allow 161 Esslinger motors and 174 Fontana motors. USAC still has a RPM limit on both motors but POWRI does not have no limit. Why wasn't chevy Gaerta's allow to go to a 174 cu. in. motor to compete with these newer motors???

Re: Motor Rules
 

I was under the impression that the 174 rule was for any pushrod, 2 valve per cylinder engine, not just the Fontana..... but don't take that to mean I know this for sure, that's just the impression i was under.

Re: Motor Rules
 

Fontana is a "non cross-flow" head, whereas the Gaerte is cross-flow; aluminum block and head, pushrod, non cross-flow, 174 C.I. Cross-flow, 166.
There's way more, but that's the rules that pertain to these to motors.

I've worked on these cars for a long time. And still haven't found a motor on one! ;)

Bob

Re: Motor Rules
 

Racer

I think Casey Shuman drove an electric motored powered midget down in Florida a few years ago. I hear that now however they are working on a wind turbine powered car to meet the the new and much stricter EPA guideline and laws of the future.;) That is if OSHA doesn't outlaw racing all together. Think how healthy you are going to be when you start peddling that bike all over. You won't even have to worry about your health care provisions anymore.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Fontana is a "non cross-flow" head, whereas the Gaerte is cross-flow; aluminum block and head, pushrod, non cross-flow, 174 C.I. Cross-flow, 166.
There's way more, but that's the rules that pertain to these to motors.

Jim

If these darned motors rules weren't so darned specific>> pretty soon the good motors would prevail and the "Boat Anchors" would be rendered into new and more useful machines. This old world ain't designed to be equal. Why do people always want to try to make it so?? Why do we hold good motors back to make poor motors competitive. (Sorry Racer)

Honest Dad himself:6::6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by Racer12:
I've worked on these cars for a long time. And still haven't found a motor on one! ;)

Bob

So, I guess my car is enginecycle powered...
mo·tor
/ˈmōtər/
noun
noun: motor; plural noun: motors

1.
a machine, especially one powered by electricity or internal combustion, that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for some other device with moving parts

Technically speaking an engine is different than a motor. An engine is a device that burns or consumes an energy source. Whereas a motor does not change the chemical makeup of its energy source. You must have an engine to produce the energy that powers a motor. In most cases.

Bob

Re: Motor Rules
 

I guess the online dictionary I got that definition from is mistaken, technically; think of all of the terminology and business names that are going to have to change because of this revelation; Enginesports as a whole, Engine Trend and Engineweek magazines, the IMCA will have to change to the IECA, the first stanza of "Born to Be Wild", out the window...

Re: Motor Rules
 

Racer

Not only do we have to hold back the good motors to allow the poorly designed motors to race but we also have to be politically correct when using the term to describe them???

GIVE ME A BREAK DARN IT>

Like the old preacher told his flock>>"Don't go by what I SAY, go by what I MEAN>>" Hallelujah I seen the light!:8::8:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

I almost forgot the biggie; the Indianapolis ENGINE Speedway!
Somebody call the Hulman family, this could cost a fortune.

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Jim

I don't thing the term "Politically Correct" had been coined yet back then>>>>;):5:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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That's one thing I'm not.
Engine. Motor. Otto-cycle Reciprocating Internal Combustion Device.
Potato. Potato. Potato.
Over and out...

Re: Motor Rules
 

Jim

By any other name does it smell as sweet?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

A sweet potato?

Originally Posted by Racer12:
I've worked on these cars for a long time. And still haven't found a motor on one! ;)

Bob

When are taking the engine home out camping?...... We need find some women to engine boat us when we do....lol

Re: Motor Rules
 

I think this post started out about clarification about some very specific and well intended rules about engine specifications. The rule that would work would be somewhere between 175-200 cubic inches, 4 cycle naturally aspirated stock block and head. That would even allow for some pretty healthy V6 motors that are out there already. It wouldn't take too long for the good motors to rise to the top and the bad ones to sink to the bottom along with the cost of racing midgets.

Engineers setting around with engine simulation software deciding on what is a good formula is why we have these "antique jewels" racing today and this is why people with large amounts of money are the only ones racing today. There are a bunch of Smokey DIY wanabe's racers out there right now chomping at the bit wanting to start racing midgets, but as long as the rules are what they are all they can do is dream.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

DAD, I used to be hung up on "motor" vs "engine", finally got over it, learned it didn't make any difference, only to me, but I heard a new one the other day, "steam punk", you can look on Ebay, under that name, and find all kinds of "steam engine" stuff! Bob

Just trying to have some fun guys! Lighten up, racing is to serious these days. Need more open trailers, coolers of beer, fans in the pits afterwards mingling with the racers. NONE of us are gettin rich so it might as well be a damn good time!

Bob

As an ex teacher yes engine is correct.but most of us live on slang terms for most things. Many of us have their engine built by a motor man. Gaerte used to be the motor man back in the "breaker 19" days. He sure built good engines. Either one is still expensive.lol

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by Racer12:
Just trying to have some fun guys! Lighten up, racing is to serious these days. Need more open trailers, coolers of beer, fans in the pits afterwards mingling with the racers. NONE of us are gettin rich so it might as well be a damn good time!

Bob

Just poking back myself Bob, no harm, no foul; hey, are you the guy with the midget and gas pump in his yard? We may be almost neighbors...

Re: Motor Rules
 

But since anything worth doing is worth doing in excess, from Dictionary.com:
Motor

1. a comparatively small and powerful engine, especially an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.

2. any self-powered vehicle.

3. a person or thing that imparts motion, especially a contrivance, as a steam engine, that receives and modifies energy from some natural source in order to utilize it in driving machinery.

4. Also called electric motor. Electricity. a machine that converts electrical energy into mechanical energy, as an induction motor.


Engine
noun
1. a machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy or power to produce force and motion.

2. a railroad locomotive.

3. a fire engine.

4. any mechanical contrivance.

5. a machine or instrument used in warfare, as a battering ram, catapult, or piece of artillery.

6. Obsolete. an instrument of torture, especially the rack.

Come to think of it, for most of us definition 6 of "engine" comes the closest...

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by Racer12:
Just trying to have some fun guys! Lighten up, racing is to serious these days. Need more open trailers, coolers of beer, fans in the pits afterwards mingling with the racers. NONE of us are gettin rich so it might as well be a damn good time!

Bob

Racer

You are wrong on that. I am making a small fortune racing. I do kinda of miss that large fortune that I started with though.

Snoopy

I to was an educator but the educated morons in Indianapolis decided that kids didn't need Industrial Education Classes anymore since the majority of their students were bound to be college bound. The kids I use to keep in school just went on and dropped out>>> and were much less bothersome to administrators that way.

The blessing in disguise was I sure made a whole lot more money by teaching those same drop outs how to weld on Exhaust systems than I would have made had I remained a teacher. :5::5::6:

Back to the topic:

Those engine rules for midgets were probably composed by both branches of the Federal Legislature and signed into law by the President of the United states and refined by both OSHA and the EPA. How do I know you ask??

BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID BURDENSOME AND OVERLY RESTRICTIVE.:7::7::7: and they also favor the wealthy.


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

Do you buy engine oil or motor oil?

I wish I still lived on 28th street! That is Kirby with the midget, nice guy! I buy motor oil for my slot cars and engine oil for my truck! ;]

Bob

Re: Motor Rules
 

I remember I had a Mercury Capri as my second car. Not the ones that became Mustang Bodies in 79 but before that. It had a small V6 and as light as the car was, I smoked most small blocks 305s-350s It was a part German Car not sure if the engine was German, But I always thought that engine would have been perfect for Midget racing. Even in that small Capri, It looked small but it had all kinds of torque and would just scream, it wasn't till about 80 where the V8s started pulling me..

Re: Motor Rules
 

Charles

Those motors are out there wanting to be raced.

The problem is everybody is in bed with everybody else and they just don't want to make room for anybody else. They are happy as they can be with their rules as they are. After all these rules do keeps out the rift raft.

Now if Harold up in Montpelier would relax his engine rule just a little bit more Old Dad might get the bug and build a midget engine to go racing. I got dibs on one of the better midget motor builders in Indiana. I take that back make that the USA because he sure gets the most out of a motor with the least amount of investment.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

Chuck, they used that engine in the Sunbeam Alpine, the V was so narrow at the top, they had to put the carb on sideways, I was in DC in the service from 1961 to 1963, and there was a gal that lived in our apartment building that had a Sunbeam, talk about a honker, both of them, but it was no match for my Chevy powered Austin Healy, which I did the swap in the parking lot, there weren't many Corvette's around that wanted to mess with me either! I'm not sure who actually supplied the engine, but a little known fact, as late as the early 70's, you could still buy a Ford V860, in an import, it had evolved to a 100 by then, by stroking it a quarter. Bob

Re: Motor Rules
 

Bob

That old Smart secret agent guy drove a Sunbeam Tiger aka Cobra wanabe powered by the little 260 ci Ford vest pocket V8 as they called it. My sister had an Alpine 4 cylinder talk about slow, fit her perfect. I bough a 1959 Austin Healey 100-6 to put one of them Jamaican Fiberglass bodies on it back when i just got out of college. The more I looked at that thing though the more I fell in love with it just the way it was. This was when I was teaching up in Indy in the early 70's and I wanted to do something in my spare time. Well I ditched the fiberglass body idea and rebuilt the Big Healey. That was the one with the 3 SU carbs, it stayed out of sync all the time but that was the joy of owning those things back then. With the big 6 (not really 3000cc's) and overdrive transmission them Corvettes could hang with me up to about 125 or so that was when you kicked the Healey in to overdrive and them vetts just kinda of faded in the rear view mirror. The biggest problem with the Healey was it tended to suck the side curtains out at speeds over 100 mph, and then you had to stop and go back to look for them.

I still got the Healey, we have about 10 more years together than me and the wife. I told her I thought it would make a nice coffin for me.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I think mine was a BN2, originally a 4 cyl, it was the LeMans model, steel fenders and aluminium trunk, hood with louvers, it had tendency to lose the hood above a hundred. Looks like I'll be in the pits tomorrow night, with truck, trailer, and car, driver unknown at this time, but I will have wheels. Bob that probably was a Tiger.

Re: Motor Rules
 

Hey Dad, what do you need relaxing in the Montpelier rulebook? It's already pretty liberal, just weight limits and wheel width rules for 3 categories of mo... er, engine.
Cars powered by Fontana, Esslinger, Stanton, Gaerte, and other purpose built engines: 1050lbs. 10" RR wheel.
Midgets Powered By Spec Engines, Honda/Ford Focus, Volkswagen, Entirely Stock Production Block and Head, Chevy II, etc... - No Minimum Weight, 10" RR.
1000CC and greater Upright Mini Sprints - No Minimum Weight, 12" RR.
Seems like just about anything you could concoct would find a place to snuggle in.

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Hey Dad, what do you need relaxing in the Montpelier rulebook? It's already pretty liberal, just weight limits and wheel width rules for 3 categories of mo... er, engine.
Cars powered by Fontana, Esslinger, Stanton, Gaerte, and other purpose built engines: 1050lbs. 10" RR wheel.
Midgets Powered By Spec Engines, Honda/Ford Focus, Volkswagen, Entirely Stock Production Block and Head, Chevy II, etc... - No Minimum Weight, 10" RR.
1000CC and greater Upright Mini Sprints - No Minimum Weight, 12" RR.
Seems like just about anything you could concoct would find a place to snuggle in.

So where would my 4.3 v-6 fit in the rules?....... And...................GO! :)

Re: Motor Rules
 

Good question Pat, since there aren't any displacement limits spelled out; the way the rules are written, I'd say no weight limit, 10" rim. Why dontcha throw it in that midget chassis you got and see what happens?:D

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Good question Pat, since there aren't any displacement limits spelled out; the way the rules are written, I'd say no weight limit, 10" rim. Why dontcha throw it in that midget chassis you got and see what happens?:D

65" wheelbase, junkyard V6, and a 10" tire. Sounds like fun to me...... :)

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by Charles Nungester:
I remember I had a Mercury Capri as my second car. Not the ones that became Mustang Bodies in 79 but before that. It had a small V6 and as light as the car was, I smoked most small blocks 305s-350s It was a part German Car not sure if the engine was German, But I always thought that engine would have been perfect for Midget racing. Even in that small Capri, It looked small but it had all kinds of torque and would just scream, it wasn't till about 80 where the V8s started pulling me..

Had a 76 Capri, those things got with the program. With the old USRC group out here in so-cal the only limit was 200ci on any engine. They tried to even things up by allowing wider right rears for some engines. [or motors, who really cares?]

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Good question Pat, since there aren't any displacement limits spelled out; the way the rules are written, I'd say no weight limit, 10" rim. Why dontcha throw it in that midget chassis you got and see what happens?:D

Jim

You are correct. Stock block and heads no displacement limit.
I am thinking about a 3500cc V6 stock block and heads. DHC 4 valve motor. New Pistons and rods. A little bigger valves Dry sump and Electronic throttle bodies. Should have plenty of power and I wouldn't have to be working on it all the time. Don't know about them big bore TRO"s but it should give them esslingers a pretty good race.

Sure wish you would have come down and looked me up Sat. night.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Jim

You are correct. Stock block and heads no displacement limit.
I am thinking about a 3500cc V6 stock block and heads. DHC 4 valve motor. New Pistons and rods. A little bigger valves Dry sump and Electronic throttle bodies. Should have plenty of power and I wouldn't have to be working on it all the time. Don't know about them big bore TRO"s but it should give them esslingers a pretty good race.

Sure wish you would have come down and looked me up Sat. night.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Hope Harold doesn't take us seriously and put a bunch of unneccessary rules in the book.
Just kidding Harold. Really.
I would've stopped by to say hi (and to ol' Robert too) if I hadn't been flying Economy Class and bought a pit pass.

Re: Motor Rules
 

Originally Posted by 3883racing:
I have a question on the motor rules and please correct me if I am wrong. POWRI and USAC both allow 161 Esslinger motors and 174 Fontana motors. USAC still has a RPM limit on both motors but POWRI does not have no limit. Why wasn't chevy Gaerta's allow to go to a 174 cu. in. motor to compete with these newer motors???

Racing cars do not have motors unless the owner got a helluva deal on a LONG extension cord. Race cars have internal combustion ENGINES but amazingly some ENGINE builders call their finished product a MOTOR?

Re: Motor Rules
 

Real engines used steam :)

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Ford. Motor. Company.
Seriously, people....