Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I am curious what other folks think of the flagman starting the races at Lawrenceburg rather than the driver on the pole getting on the gas at a pre-determined location coming out of turn 4.

The starts have not been very good. It is hard for drivers at the rear of the field to see the flagman coming out of turn 4. Drivers at the back are running into cars in front of them because they are looking at the flagman rather than the car in front of them. There has also been inconsistency as to when the green flag is being thrown.

There have been numerous restarts because cars in the front row are checking up so they don't jump the start......cars in the second row are either running into them or passing them (jumping the start).

We have only raced there twice with the AMSA so we don't have a whole lot of experience, but from what I have witnessed it would be better on the drivers and the cars if they stuck a cone out there and let the pole sitter start the race when he gets to the cone.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I hate this idea. The race should start coming out of turn 4, not when the flagman decides to throw the green. Just be like all of the other dirt tracks in the country and start the race as the cars come out of 4. This is just a wreck waiting to happen..

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I think it's ridiculous that the polesitter can "jump" (and be penalized!) the start. I've watched races from darn near my infancy (I'm 55 this week!) and the polesitter has always started the race somewhere in four. It's worked for decades and now they change it. Put the chalk line on the track and when he crosses it, he can start the race. There have been several "restarts" this year due to this stupid rule. Letting the polesitter start the race will eliminate about 90% of the restarts at the outset of a race.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by cecil98:
I think it's ridiculous that the polesitter can "jump" (and be penalized!) the start. I've watched races from darn near my infancy (I'm 55 this week!) and the polesitter has always started the race somewhere in four. It's worked for decades and now they change it. Put the chalk line on the track and when he crosses it, he can start the race. There have been several "restarts" this year due to this stupid rule. Letting the polesitter start the race will eliminate about 90% of the restarts at the outset of a race.

CECIL,
I HAVE SEEN SOME TRACKS USE TWO CHALK LINES SPACED SO MANY FEET APART.WHEN THE LEAD CARS GET BETWEEN THE TWO LINES THEY POLE CAR CAN TAKE OFF AT ANY WHERE IN BETWEEN THE LINES.SEEMED TO WORK PRETTY GOOD. :checkered:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Phil,

I have been thinking about posting something on this topic for awhile now but did not out of respect to Dave and crew because my opinion is negative. This rule seems to be causing more problems than anything. Everyone we talk to at the races doesn't like the rule and the drivers I talk too all say they don't like it and can't watch the cars in front of them and the flagman. It seems to me that it causes more cautions than you would normally have if you let the polesitter start the race. A few weeks ago I was totally baffled at the start of an AMSA race when a good start got yellow flagged and then the next start a car from the third row jumped the start and was in the lead by the time they made it too the flagstand but no yellow came out. Just my opinion but things were better off when the polesitter started the race. Also curious to see what others think.

Later,

Shane

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Its out of hand everwhere! I drove from 1963 to 1988 from coast to coast! The starter should start the race!!!!!!!!!!! I raced imca at state fair in st paul minn. In 1966 and pete folse was the champion stated on the pole of the first heat he was the slowest guy to make the heats! And he jumped the start and they put him to the tail and he missed the feature! Frank winkley run the show with a iron fist! And there was no more jumping the starts after that for 4 more days of racing!!!!! There is a start and finnish line at the flag stand!!!! Not in the 3rd turn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I seen a lot of cars torn up and guys hurt from the false starts!!!!!!!!!! If a driver jumps the start put him to the tail and if he does it again put him on the trailer!!!!!!! Let the starter do it right! EVEN NASCAR YOU DON'T JUMP THE GUN!!!!!! AND THERE NOT REAL SMART! AND DRAG RACING YOU WAIT TILL THE STARTER SAYS GO!

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Is the problem due to the new track configuration or has it always been a problem?

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by ThaBurgFan:
Phil,

I have been thinking about posting something on this topic for awhile now but did not out of respect to Dave and crew because my opinion is negative. This rule seems to be causing more problems than anything. Everyone we talk to at the races doesn't like the rule and the drivers I talk too all say they don't like it and can't watch the cars in front of them and the flagman. It seems to me that it causes more cautions than you would normally have if you let the polesitter start the race. A few weeks ago I was totally baffled at the start of an AMSA race when a good start got yellow flagged and then the next start a car from the third row jumped the start and was in the lead by the time they made it too the flagstand but no yellow came out. Just my opinion but things were better off when the polesitter started the race. Also curious to see what others think.

Later,

Shane

I agree completely. I have seen what appeared to be good starts yellow-flagged and starts that looked bad allowed to continue.

We have been involved with quarter midget racing for 4 years. Even at that level the driver on the pole is permitted to start the race once he/she has passed a line in turn three. It works well and the majority of the starts are clean.

My son told me you cannot see the flagman if you are in the middle of the pack or at the rear anyway. What ends up happening is the leaders slow down or brake check to avoid jumping the start. When that occurs it becomes a domino effect.....everyone running into the back of the car in front of them.

Maybe if enough drivers bring up the issue the 'Burg will go with a cone or white line. The race starts would be better and the drivers will be able to get going and race each other rather than being so bunched up.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I guess you never seen jack hewitt start in the back and be leading at the starting line?

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Hell, i'll be glad when the flagman throws out the red when there's a crash. He's been having a problem with that. Maybe he needs an assistant.......cecil i do agree once again. Ding ding ding.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by SUPERDUKE:
I guess you never seen jack hewitt start in the back and be leading at the starting line?

What would that have to do with the flagman or the pole-sitter starting the race? It's no different than a re-start. You cannot pass until you reach the cone or the white line.

In your scenerio above, under the rules I recommended, the yellow would come out, Jack would be warned and moved to the tail. If he did it again he'd be black-flagged.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by phylo82:
what would that have to do with the flagman or the pole-sitter starting the race? It's no different than a re-start. You cannot pass until you reach the cone or the white line.

In your scenerio above, under the rules i recommended, the yellow would come out, jack would be warned and moved to the tail. If he did it again he'd be black-flagged.

thats when the wreck happens bringing out the yellow on the back chute after the start!!!!!!! THE RACE STARTS WHEN THE GREEN FLAG WAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT WHEN THE POLE SITTER TAKES OFF!

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I have seen many more wrecks and re-starts under the current rule (flagman starting the race) then when the pole-sitter starts it.

Maybe it's the new layout of the track.....I really don't know. What I do know is that when multiple drivers tell me they cannot watch the flagman and the car in front of them you are going to have problems. Especially when the first row is checking up to avoid jumping the start.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Whille spend over a quarter of a century during my racing days in the flag stand I have been able to work with alot of sanciting bodies and race tracks, this "intial start being called back for jumping" has beat up so many times by the fans, drivers, and yes the flagman.

Most of the sancitiong bodies designate a point (usally T-4 or just out on the front chute) with a cone/ white line where they "want" the "leader/ field" to pick up the throttle. If everything at point properly alinged we "go green".

When things don't go right that is where the issues of was it a "bad start" come into play. Here is what I am looking at when the geen waves.

1) Did the "field throttle up" altogether, or did the "pole/ front row" take off way to early. If the first occured it's a "good start". If the second occured, the "pole/ front row" just got an advantage over the balance of the "field." That isn't fair to the racers in back of the field of that race.

2) If it's a "bad/ false start" what is the "correct action" to get the "fair start". First throw the yellow and get'em in line. Most sancitioning bodies will allow 1 "false start", depending on the size of the track the cars are back in line and usally between the flagman and "track steward" at the cone/ line when they get back to that point, the drivers understand their mistake and we are ready to race, issue resolved.

3) If it happens again (same event) now is where it could get confusing, as there are to 2 schools of thought. One play on penalize the offender at the next yellow (in most cases 2 for 1 gained) or throw the yellow (false start) and peanlize at that point. Thankfully the sancitioing bodies and track I have been with opt for the 1 action.

Now look at if it's not the "pole/ front row" it's deeper in the field. Over the years in drivers meeting it has been explained and explained and explained..... "you are to be 2 by by 2 by 2 and front row picks the throttle at the cone/ line. He is going to be treated just like any other "jumper."

For the most part, once the drivers figure out the "quriks, twitches or movement" that the flagman dose (not intentionly)that split second before he/ she waves the green then it's sometimes ugly. And the same goes for the flagman, he/ she needs to learn what the drivers "quirks" are then everyone concerne is on the same page and hopefully no "false starts."

Remember we could go back to the "days of old" where the racers had to be "side by side" at the "STARTING LINE/ FLAGSTAND" Now how many "false starts" would we have by that procedure.

The thing to look at is, DID EVERYBODY THROTTLE UP AT THE SAME TIME AND DID ANYBODY GAIN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE THE GREEN FLAG/ LIGHT.

When I am flagging a race I strive only use 4 flags the whole night a green, white, checkerd, and a yellow (only because that lets the drivers know that there is push trucks on the track.)

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

The thing to look at is, DID EVERYBODY THROTTLE UP AT THE SAME TIME AND DID ANYBODY GAIN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE THE GREEN FLAG/ LIGHT...Flags anything

It is the responsibility of the rest of the field to keep pace with the pole sitter as long as the polesitter sets a "reasonable" pace before the start and maintains that pace until he reaches that designated point somewhere in turn 4 (or wherever the track or sanctioning body establishes it). The only problem that really can occur under this scenario is if a car, in any of the rows behind row 1, doesn't keep pace and holds up everyone behind him. If that happens, it's considered a false start, the car not keeping pace would be warned and if it happens twice, he goes to the tail, the same as if he had jumped the start.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

OK DO AWAY WITH THE FLAGMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LET THEM START WHENEVER THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:redflag:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Its a great Ideia to let the flagman start the race, IF everybody can see the flagman. If the guys in the second row cant see the flagman, then the leaders have an advantage. Whats worse is the guys five or six rows back can look out the left side and see the flagman, then they get a jump on the guys that cant see. Im not sure what the answer is, but the pole sitter is on the pole for a reason, even if it is luck of the draw and the front row should start the race, if for no other reason then they are the ones racing, and the flagman is nothing more then the official who makes sure nobody gets an advantage. Dale

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by SUPERDUKE:
OK DO AWAY WITH THE FLAGMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LET THEM START WHENEVER THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:redflag:

I am not sure why I am responding to this post, but......No one has said get rid of the flagman. It is the flagman's job to make sure the race is started clean. That doesn't mean he needs to start the race. The pole-sitter can do that when he hits the starting line.

As someone else mentioned above, if the pole-sitter jumps too soon yellow-flag it. The first time is a warning, the second time he moves to the tail. The same thing goes for anyone else in line. If they jump the start or if they don't keep up at the start.

It's that simple. Races will start cleaner and you won't have the problems that are occuring now.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

i always liked the way the hav-a-tampa late models started their races. they carried a big box with a green flood lights in it and the flagman had control of the switch. the drivers had to maintain their 2 x 2 position and kept the pace slow until the flagman turned on the green light. any jumping of the start relegated the offender to the rear of the event. the rows behind all fired when the man ahead of him did and there was hardly ever a bad start. that caution thrown on the backstretch is very dangerous especially with sprint cars on small tight race tracks.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I have to agree with the track configuration its hard to see the flagman on starts if you start farther back than the second row, I dont think they would have jumped starts if they did the two cone rule one between three and four and one at the exit of 4, and the leader fires somewhere between

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Very interesting debate.other than when I was front row,I've never looked at the flagman at the start.I look at the pole sitters left rear ,when he lights it ,it's GO TIME....The flagman can decide if the front row did it right ,I usually have my hands full with that raging beast I'm holding on to.......

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by Big Willy:
i always liked the way the hav-a-tampa late models started their races. they carried a big box with a green flood lights in it and the flagman had control of the switch. the drivers had to maintain their 2 x 2 position and kept the pace slow until the flagman turned on the green light. any jumping of the start relegated the offender to the rear of the event. the rows behind all fired when the man ahead of him did and there was hardly ever a bad start. that caution thrown on the backstretch is very dangerous especially with sprint cars on small tight race tracks.

THANK YOU! THATS WHAT I SAID! :checkered:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

This one is for you SUPERDUKE. Jack Hewitt on the subject. Rated R

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tAJtnl_1bQ

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by Sprinter21:
This one is for you SUPERDUKE. Jack Hewitt on the subject. Rated R

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tAJtnl_1bQ

I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD THE BEST FROM ALL THE HEWITTS! JACK WAS THE BEST AT JUMPING THE GUN! AND GOT A WAY WITH IT A LOT!:checkered:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

The most common way to restart 'em down here was by the starter using the green lights as he waved the flag. The racer could use whatever green light that he had the best view of as they were located at various points around the track. :greenflag:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

If the flagman is starting the race you need to be able to see him, your reaction time might be better than the guy infront of you and if you can pass when it drops and get a better fire than the guy in front of you thats one more car passed before you get to turn 1, thats why seeing him is an issue, if he is the starter and not the pole sitter

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I'll give you another reason why the current starting process is flawed. Say you are sitting about three rows deep in the field coming through 3 and 4 for the start. Not only are you trying to watch for the flagman to wave the green but your trying to keep from beating the rear bumper off the car in front of you plus the guy running next to you. This method I think came from the flagmans North Vernon days.

Honestly in the 3 L-Burg races I have been to this year I've seen more miscues on starts then should be happening. These guys are trying to anticipate what the flagman is going to do and it causes nothing more than beat up bumpers and accordian affects on the guys in the middle and back.

USAC has a pretty good system where you have two cones. When you get to the first cone you increase your speed slightly and when you hit the second cone it's game on. No passing until you get past the second cone. If you take off before you get to the second cone you get one more shot and then go backwards. If the flagman likes the pass the polesitter is setting and sees that he started the race at the appropriate spot then he waves the green. If the start is jumped by the pole or outside pole guy then he throws the yellow after the first corner.

Everyone complains about how late programs are running so if you want the best of both worlds you need to put a system in place where the leader gets to a designated cone and can take off. The guys in back know where it is and they know that they can't pass the guy in front of them until they are past that so there is no guessing which leads to bumper tag.

<Puts on his helmet and awaits SUPERDUKES tirade about the way things used to be>

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I always thought the pole sitter should start anytime between two cones in 4. It's worked for years, This system to me isn't working very well.

Not a *****, Just a observation

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

:redflag:YOUR NOT TO PASS ANYBODY TILL YOU GO BUY THE STARTING LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THATS WHAT THE STARTING LINE IS FOR! IF THEY WANT YOU TO START IN 3 & 4 THEY WOULD PUT IT THERE!!!!!!!!!!!! LIKE I SAID ITS OUT OF HAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by dant:
very interesting debate.other than when i was front row,i've never looked at the flagman at the start.i look at the pole sitters left rear ,when he lights it ,it's go time....the flagman can decide if the front row did it right ,i usually have my hands full with that raging beast i'm holding on to.......

good thinking!

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

:applaud:

Originally Posted by Knoke77:
I'll give you another reason why the current starting process is flawed. Say you are sitting about three rows deep in the field coming through 3 and 4 for the start. Not only are you trying to watch for the flagman to wave the green but your trying to keep from beating the rear bumper off the car in front of you plus the guy running next to you. This method I think came from the flagmans North Vernon days.

Honestly in the 3 L-Burg races I have been to this year I've seen more miscues on starts then should be happening. These guys are trying to anticipate what the flagman is going to do and it causes nothing more than beat up bumpers and accordian affects on the guys in the middle and back.

USAC has a pretty good system where you have two cones. When you get to the first cone you increase your speed slightly and when you hit the second cone it's game on. No passing until you get past the second cone. If you take off before you get to the second cone you get one more shot and then go backwards. If the flagman likes the pass the polesitter is setting and sees that he started the race at the appropriate spot then he waves the green. If the start is jumped by the pole or outside pole guy then he throws the yellow after the first corner.

Everyone complains about how late programs are running so if you want the best of both worlds you need to put a system in place where the leader gets to a designated cone and can take off. The guys in back know where it is and they know that they can't pass the guy in front of them until they are past that so there is no guessing which leads to bumper tag.

<Puts on his helmet and awaits SUPERDUKES tirade about the way things used to be>

WRONG THE WAY THINGS SHOULD BE!

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

i think Superduke is one of those fans who just likes to see torn up racecars and big wrecks. Because thats all the current system is doing. L-burg, be like all of the other million dirt tracks and start coming off of 4

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

I think Superduke has never drove a race car either. I agree with Chuck, sorry some people see this as complaining rather than realizing it has been a problem and will continue to be. When the drivers repeatedly say that they can't see the flagman and cars in front of them, it seems concerning. Hopefully they have brought this up in the driver's meeting before. Just want to see the best racing possible at the 'Burg.

Shane

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Hopefully it will be brought up at the drivers meeting this week.

I can't speak for other classes.....I don't know much about those cars. But I can speak for the vision you have in a winged mini-sprint like the ones that are run in the AMSA. You have about zero vision looking up out of a winged mini-sprint because the wing is in the way.

Under the current conditions you are expecting drivers back in the field, that are buckled in tight, to try to find the green flag on the flag stand while watching the car in front of them at the same time, while coming off the high banking of turn 4.

Not an easy thing to do.....especially when the field is checking up in front of them because the leaders are break checking to avoid jumping the start.

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

:redflag:

Originally Posted by Phylo82:
Hopefully it will be brought up at the drivers meeting this week.

I can't speak for other classes.....I don't know much about those cars. But I can speak for the vision you have in a winged mini-sprint like the ones that are run in the AMSA. You have about zero vision looking up out of a winged mini-sprint because the wing is in the way.

Under the current conditions you are expecting drivers back in the field, that are buckled in tight, to try to find the green flag on the flag stand while watching the car in front of them at the same time, while coming off the high banking of turn 4.

Not an easy thing to do.....especially when the field is checking up in front of them because the leaders are break checking to avoid jumping the start.

TAKE THE WING OFF AND GO RACING!:redflag:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

[QUOTE=ThaBurgFan;53390]I think Superduke has never drove a race car either. I agree with Chuck, sorry some people see this as complaining rather than realizing it has been a problem and will continue to be. When the drivers repeatedly say that they can't see the flagman and cars in front of them, it seems concerning. Hopefully they have brought this up in the driver's meeting before. Just want to see the best racing possible at the 'Burg.

Shane[/ CAN YOU FIND YOUR WAY HOME?:applaud:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Originally Posted by slide22:
i think Superduke is one of those fans who just likes to see torn up racecars and big wrecks. Because thats all the current system is doing. L-burg, be like all of the other million dirt tracks and start coming off of 4

I'AM REALLY NOT A FAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:applaud:

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Superduke,

your are assuming that I have a home. lol In all seriousness, I am with Phil on this one and just think this is worth addressing.

Trying to find my way home,

Shane

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Honestly i dont think i have ever seen cars stay double file passed the line then start racing....EVER... I seriously hope that was a joke...

but any who I think jake explained it better than i could have

Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
 

Superduke, if a guys car chokes a little when he hits the gas, then no one can pass him till the start line, I don't agree. You also mentioned NASCAR starts, it makes a big difference on a superspeedway when there is a big straight before the line. It's not an argument, just an opinion. And Duke, I know you raced, I saw you. Although I never saw the Springfield mile be very kind to you.