08 R1 lacks down low
 

Hi everyone.
I have an R1 on alcohol with Rosson injection and a power commander 5. Has great top end but seriously lacks on a restart. Does anyone know if the electronic throttle set up kills these engines or should I be looking elsewhere.
Thanks

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

We run a Kawi 636 with electronic injection and it works awesome.
Sounds like it may be over-fueled down low in the rpm range. Have you put the car on a chassis dyno to tune it? If not, that would really be the next step. That way you could really see what is happening with the injection and air/fuel ratio.
We use DC Chassis Dyno in Brownsburg, IN. Call Dan Pace at 317-607-7315. Tell him Duke sent you.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Hi Andrew

The R1 motors thru 08 all lack torque, the 04-06 R1 is the worst of the liter class for torque and the 07-08 isn't really that much better. In 09 they made a huge change and now have plenty of torque but lack HP on the top. All of the small bore, high revving bike motors make only half the torque compared to HP so its not hard to see where one would need to look to make big gains in performance but here's the deal. Your never going to make a one size fits all velocity stack such as Rosson uses on these motors work, its just not going to happen. Cheaper to make, yes, but its just never going to work properly. You might want to give Brody Stewert a call at 618-305-4245, he's just tuned a 08 R1 powered minisprint with a proper intake setup made specifically for that motor.

Monte

hanks guys
It has been on a chassis dyno.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Do yourself a favor, give Brody a call.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

I dont know about the R1, but on the R6 if the TPS sensor was bad it would do that.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew

Here I go again. The Yamaha is a little weak down low, other than that it is the best all around motor for mini sprints.. They make gobs of power once they get some revs built up.. We use a very simple shift arrangement that allows us to start in first and bang it into second before the turn if we think we have to.. We run Kaw's and that usually is not required, but if we think it is you had better get out of the way because we are coming on thru. The ecm on most new bikes is mapped to prevent gobs of torque down low. They want their riders to last long enough to pay off the bike. Each gear has it's own map. First is most retarded or restricted, followed by second a little less and third even better. After third gear they remove all of the restrictions. Most of the restrictions are also removed after about 7000 rpm's also so if you come around in first at about 5500 or 6000 rpm's you are good to go.

I would recommend the strongest chain you can get your hands on. We had a guy do a first gear start while setting on the pole, he hit second gear and bang snapped his chain, messed up a whole bunch of race cars us being one of them.

If you check the bike mags they also make a device(resistors) that makes the computer (They really aren't that smart) think that it is in 5 th gear all the time, and that does help a little also.

We pitted next to a couple of cars this weekend at Du Quoin that had Mac's Induction systems on them and he does builds a beautiful unit. Better than Rosson's and lighter too I bet,>> can you say "BIG".

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Thanks again everyone.
We wanted to try a new velocity stack. Will have to stay up late and call Brody. I'm on the other side of the planet (Australia). We aren't allowed to change gears although I'm sure many do.
Andrew

Also when we got the car it had an 11 tooth front sprocket so it ran in 4th.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew

Did a little Google search and I guess the R1 is so down on torque they don't need TRE's (Timing Retard Eliminators). You should be able with the help of an add on ECM device alter (advance timing at lower rpm's) and use what is known as an accelerater pump program to help your problem.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

PS>>>> the next time you flush the comode could you post back in which direction the water turns (clockwise or counter clockwise). I got a bet ridding on it.:):)

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Take top of air box off. Make sure when the key comes on, that the stacks move all way down against throttle bodies...should be no slack in any-one of them...engine is really dead when they don't work properly

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew if you know Sean Barnett you might also ask him about the new intake on his car. He has changed from a Rosson to a Performance Fab High Velocity Intake and can answer any questions as to how the two compare.

For you guys having oiling problems with your ZX10 motors heres an interesting thread. http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/10175...g#.UzzAT_ldXMo

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

If Ron say it so on an R1 better listen to him.

Mac thanks for the heads up. We tried the holes in the breather baffle a few years ago and it may have helped a little. This last time we tried what Phil in Kansas did with a new twist. The Kaws have several things working aganist them. They have so much pressure in the combustion chamber at high rpm and horsepower situations that they cause the cylinder bore to go out of round creating a lot of blow by. The breather for the crankcase is vented inside the clutch chamber. In a hard 1g + turn the oil in the pan reaches 45+ degree angle on the right side of the crankcase. Since the breather pick up in behind the clutch basket it tends to be picked up by the clutch and the oil is pumped up into breather box. The outlet of the breather box travels down a small 5/16" passage to the crankcase. The stock pan continues this passage down to the oil pump pick up where it is supposed to be pulled back into the pump. I think Rosson finally picked up on this in one of my post on Apex speed. If that passage is not piped back to the pump the blow by pressure in the crankcase will not let the oil drain back to the pan. So now if you vent off of the crankcase breather box only we got oil pumped up by the clutch basket into the breather and vapor being blown up that small passage in the back of the block into our breather and close to a 1/2 quart or more of valuable oil stuck up in your breather box starving your engine of oil and messing up your pretty new driving shoes. None of that is good.

If any body be interested in our fix?? We didn't blow a drop of oil at DuQuoin>>Call Me.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Originally Posted by DAD:
Andrew


PS>>>> the next time you flush the comode could you post back in which direction the water turns (clockwise or counter clockwise). I got a bet ridding on it.:):)

Water will turn the opposite way to you guys. Simpson's did it years ago.

Spent hours looking for a TRE (timing retard Eliminator). They don't have them for Yamaha.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew

I guess that makes one of us backwards. I always wondered how that would effect intake porting and combustion chamber design?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Andrew, Suggest you have a Red Bull before each race. You will be that pumped, you won't miss the start. LOL

Hi everyone
Is there a kit to get rid of the drive by wire system?
Has anyone used the variable velocity stacks that are on the r1 originally?
Thanks
Andrew

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

It was a clutching not a shifting incident;)

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andy

All I know is I looked up and Doug was doing cart wheels 10 feet up off of the race track over your head. That little R1 had soo much torque he broke the chain in 3 places.:5::5:. We always just shift gears and don't mess with the clutch once under way. I guess the clutch thing is more like drag racing huh, Hold the throttle down and slip the clutch til about 12000 rpms or so>>then BANG drop the clutch..>>that would be what the drag racers call the "LAUNCH"

We don't mess too much with R-1's But computers are fooled all the time. I would bet if you could and you probably can install some old pre drive by wire injector bodies it would work just fine.. One of the problems with the r1 is it has a very short stroke and thus less torque, but as you spin it up the HP takes over.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

The fly by wire isn't your problem. All the late model stuff running 2 butterfly's are fly by wire, it helps the torque on those quite a bit.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Originally Posted by MC@Performance Fab:
The fly by wire isn't your problem. All the late model stuff running 2 butterfly's are fly by wire, it helps the torque on those quite a bit.

Mac

The double butterfly throttle bodies are indeed fly by wire. The computer takes engine parameters such as rpm, map, and throttle position to open the secondary's at the proper speed to make the motor smooth and ridable. This is controlled by the ECM, for street riders they also must factor in the inexperienced rider doing something stupid and high siding the bike because they used too much throttle at a too rapid of an opening speed. (We called it grabbing a hand full.)

The racing ECM's have provisions for changing the action of the secondaries better suiting them for more experienced racers or by keeping them open all the time. We chose to remove the secondaries altogether and re-map the ecm accordingly. This helped a little in the case of the zx10r but then acceleration was never really a problem with the Kaw.

Yamaha YEC racing kits chose to do away with fly by wire system all together.

Here comes the whole can of worms all over the place.

Read and enjoy!!! The only thing wrong with YEC is Mr Engler makes a fix that is probably cheaper!!!! You just can't protect racers from them selves.:5: http://www.yamaha-racingparts.com/do..._YZF_R1_EN.pdf

SEE page 57 & 60 of 96

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Ok. Now I'm totally confused. The throttle bodies (I have 2) don't look like they ever had more than one butterfly. The variable tubes on the set I just got seem to have a gap under them when raised.
I put the engine in a new car recently and pushed the rosson tubes down as far as they would go. I don't think they were right down before. Would this give me grief? How much power down low would I lose? We maybe talking up to an inch.
I have spoken to Shaun Barnett and he says go with montey's velocity stacks but my dyno guy is adamant I should lose the fly by wire.
This is an 08 r1.

And I'm not supposed to change gears by our rules as we have car engines running with us. Slipping the clutch sounds scary.
Thanks

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew

Yamaha does things a little different from the other bike builders.. They only use 1 throttle plate, that is a good thing, however it lowers restrictions in the intake track. Like I said they still have to make these things a little IDIOT proof to protect the rider. This is done with the computer controlling the throttle or "fly by wire" with computer commands. If you smash the throttle wide open the computer looks at what else the engine is doing and says "This guy is nuts, no way am I going to move that fast, he is getting ready to throw himself on his "ARSE", so using the good judgment programed at time of setting up the bike it does not open that fast and everything is just fine. Now a little better rider can open the throttle a little faster than a novice, and if he wishes to race and win he goes out and buys a $10,000.00 YEC Racing kit for his bike.

Like I said they do away with fly by wire all together and go back to the antique cable system. Now all that is left for you to do is figure out how to remove that stepper motor located on your throttle shaft and attach a bell-crank system in it's place. I would almost bet that an earlier throttle body will fit in the place of the new one. You might also have to replace the rubber boots on the head to get them to line up properly.

We race at a pretty constant rpm. The movable ram tubes were designed to help bike that had to operate smoothly from 1200 rpm's to 13000 rpm's and the length change helps out there. You probably operate from around 7000 rpm's to 13000 rpm's and the movement won't help much.

Remember short tracks with tight turns make the tubes long, long tracks with foot on the floor all the time short stacks.:)

Remember if you go to cables you are going to be way lean at low rpm's that is when the Dyno Man earns his keep.;)

Now get out there and do some searching, report back on what you find!!!

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

The 06 fits with an angle grinder if you know what I mean. Looking at the spare throttle body I think I can lock the 2 sides of the throttle mechanism together and lose the electric motor.
It's going on the dyno anyway.

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew

the earlier throttle bodies have an adjustable couplers in the middle so that you can balance air flow at Idle.;) BUT race cars don't have to idle much and at flat out they will be balanced. I would try the older throttle bodies first and see what happens.

Computers aren't as smart as many people think.:10::10:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

LOL....the two of you are confusing ME and I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing..............Andrew you do know that the 07-08 airbox won't bolt down to the 04-06 throttle bodies?

I'm thinking you are about to spend good money after bad....

Re: 08 R1 lacks down low
 

Andrew

If you got it just use the old air box that should tell you something. Early air box probably about $50.00 ebay. Generally throttle bodies will interchange but sometimes you need the cylinder head boots also to match everyhing up. Works on Kaw's and I think Suzukie's.

Racing is experimentation and trying to out think your opponent, You can do it or wait for someone to do it for you!!!

I confuse a lot of people Mac, you sure aren't the first to bring that up.;):5: Just trying to stay ahead of the curve.



Honest Dad himself:6::6:

PS. Mac did you click on the link in above post?