In need of chassis repair
 

So, I'm stripping my just-purchased older Bailey Mini Sprint to freshen up for Montpelier and I've discovered the genius who "modified it to fit a larger driver" (the larger driver being the guy I bought it from) cut the left-side seat belt mount out of the chassis. The lap belt is looped around the left frame rail in such a way that it could ride up the curve where it transitions to the rear upright. First picture is mine, second is how it should be mounted. Can anybody recommend a good fab guy in Indy who could help me make it right?

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

I think if it were mine, I'd buy a 2pc set collar, like used on a go-kart rear axle, and put it on there, to keep the belt from slipping up that radius in the tube, you can buy those in inch or metric sizes, should be a quick easy fix, but actually, it looks like that belt needs to be brought down to the lower frame rail, it's gonna be a hassle getting it hooked and tight, as short as it is. I realize it's close to your chain, but it needs to be lower in the car, IMHO! Bob

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
I think if it were mine, I'd buy a 2pc set collar, like used on a go-kart rear axle, and put it on there, to keep the belt from slipping up that radius in the tube, you can buy those in inch or metric sizes, should be a quick easy fix, but actually, it looks like that belt needs to be brought down to the lower frame rail, it's gonna be a hassle getting it hooked and tight, as short as it is. I realize it's close to your chain, but it needs to be lower in the car, IMHO! Bob

Thanks for your response, Bob.
Belt length isn't an issue, those are expired and being replaced anyway; I don't like where the belt comes over the top of the seat as it is now, it looks like the wrong angle in relation to the pelvis. I thought about wrapping the new belt around the diagonal of the main frame, but that would put the webbing between the upper & lower chain runs, which if not outright dangerous would expose the belt to a lot of chain lube muck.
The other pic is looking under the seat of an unmolested Bailey; the tube the left side lap belt is mounted to is inboard of the chain guard and comes off the seat crossmember, then up to the crossmember at the bottom of the a-frame. Hard to tell but I think there's some kind of loop to keep the belt from crawling up the curve. Mine used to have that setup but all that's left is about a 1/4" stub on the front x-member, thanks to somebody who got carried away with the Sawzall. :11;
I need somebody with better TIG skills than me to recreate that...

I would agree with bob on this. You and I have the same chassis and my belt is luckily on the rail as it should be. The collars would be the best bang for the buck because there is probably no room for the bar to be put back in unless you went under the left edge of the seat. If you move the belt lower on the frame, I would put a shield on the other side of the chain and contain the chain and all the wonderful oils that go with it in a "tunnel" along the frame length.

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Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13:
I would agree with bob on this. You and I have the same chassis and my belt is luckily on the rail as it should be. The collars would be the best bang for the buck because there is probably no room for the bar to be put back in unless you went under the left edge of the seat. If you move the belt lower on the frame, I would put a shield on the other side of the chain and contain the chain and all the wonderful oils that go with it in a "tunnel" along the frame length.

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Thanks for the input, Pat. I don't like where the belt is now at all, and I think the shielding idea may be as much work as welding a mount back in, but I'll give it a look when I get home from work (don't tell the Boss I'm on IOW, hee hee).
I think with the seat I bought from you, there's enough room to weld a mount in where I can thread the belt up next to the chainguard, if I mount the seat as far to the right as I can get it.
Nick Speidel referred me to Leader's Edge, near 10th & Girls' School Rd here in town. I need some other welding done anyway (Dzus plates and such) so I think I may be giving them a call.
(Nick, if you're reading this, your mailbox is full. Thanks, and I got their number off the website).

Jim Jones
Future Montpelier Midget Rookie of the Year (ha)

PS Pat: You wouldn't happen to have the seat out so you could snap a pic of your belt mount to take to Leader's Edge, wouldja?

It's still in the car but its up on the lift so I can get you a picture from underneath and how my belt is installed. I'll try to get out to my shop in a day or two and get it for you.

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Re: In need of chassis repair
 

That'd be great.
Thanks Pat.

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Yes, if the belt goes OVER the seat, you might just as well tie it to your uniform, it'd do about as much good, it needs to come thru the slot in the seat to be of any value, which from what I can see, looks like you'll have to move the seat a bit to the right, and make some additions to guards or whatever, to get down to the lower frame rail to attach it, maybe a loop, bent in a u shape, and welded to the lower rail, then figure out some shielding to keep the chain from eating it up, don't look so easy now! How close is the chain to that vertical tube there from the lower rail up, that might be able to be of use as an attaching point for a loop, or a tube in there at an angle up to the one with the bend in it. Still need to protect the belt from the chain, but anything would be better than what you have. Bob

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
Yes, if the belt goes OVER the seat, you might just as well tie it to your uniform, it'd do about as much good, it needs to come thru the slot in the seat to be of any value, which from what I can see, looks like you'll have to move the seat a bit to the right, and make some additions to guards or whatever, to get down to the lower frame rail to attach it, maybe a loop, bent in a u shape, and welded to the lower rail, then figure out some shielding to keep the chain from eating it up, don't look so easy now! How close is the chain to that vertical tube there from the lower rail up, that might be able to be of use as an attaching point for a loop, or a tube in there at an angle up to the one with the bend in it. Still need to protect the belt from the chain, but anything would be better than what you have. Bob

Kinda like this? You can see the chainguard just to the left of the belt in the red square...
The seat that's in it is for a "husky" fella, I'm putting in a 17" seat that I bought from Patrick that should give me some space between the chainguard and the belt opening in the seat; if I get a tube welded in parallel to the outer frame rail just inboard of the guard (which is what looks like was there originally), we should be "gooda go" (in my best Aussie accent)...

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

No. I think that is not much better than what you have, that belt needs to attach lower down from the seat, if you were to take a piece of 1 1/4 tube, and bend it in a 90, and weld it into the lower rail. about 3" up that vertical, and the other end to the piece that you are attached to now, you would have a place to either weld in a tab to bolt to, or a place to wrap your anchor point. You might still be close to your chain, but if you go thru the opening in the seat, that will help get some space for the belt and chain to live in harmony! Bob

Originally Posted by jjones752:
Kinda like this? You can see the chainguard just to the left of the belt in the red square...
The seat that's in it is for a "husky" fella, I'm putting in a 17" seat that I bought from Patrick that should give me some space between the chainguard and the belt opening in the seat; if I get a tube welded in parallel to the outer frame rail just inboard of the guard (which is what looks like was there originally), we should be "gooda go" (in my best Aussie accent)...

That picture pretty much shows my setup perfectly. If you notice in the picture and when you see my car, my seat is installed slightly on an angle from side to side as does the yellow car appears to be as well. I did it mainly so when I'm hooked in I don't feel like I'm offset to the right. Makes me feel centered in the car. (Just a personal thing I guess..lol) my seat is a 15" so room isn't an issue, especially with the way the seat is angled. It gives about 1-1.5" of room for the belt to wrap the left side bar as shown in the yellow car picture. That 17" seat had room in my chassis as well with the slight angled mounting.

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Joe devin- DRC builds sprints and midgets but he's your man good guy and does excellent work

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Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Technically speaking, that seat belt anchor needs to be where the lower frame rail, and the upright meet, just in front of the rear axle, that gets it back far anough, and low enough in the chassis, to plant your butt when you tighten the belts, the way I see it in both chassis, it offers little if any help, in an end over crash of anykind, you need the angle and the length on the belts, to allow the lap belt to do it's job, personally, I wouldn't drive a car set up like that, nor would I pass it thru inspection, I think if you do ever, and it will happen, not if, but when, have a crash where you are subjected to being upside down, and or landing upside down, the results may not be to your liking. JMHO Bob

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
Technically speaking, that seat belt anchor needs to be where the lower frame rail, and the upright meet, just in front of the rear axle, that gets it back far anough, and low enough in the chassis, to plant your butt when you tighten the belts, the way I see it in both chassis, it offers little if any help, in an end over crash of anykind, you need the angle and the length on the belts, to allow the lap belt to do it's job, personally, I wouldn't drive a car set up like that, nor would I pass it thru inspection, I think if you do ever, and it will happen, not if, but when, have a crash where you are subjected to being upside down, and or landing upside down, the results may not be to your liking. JMHO Bob

It's hard to tell from the angle of the picture, but based on what I've been able to glean so far, and Patrick's input that his Bailey has this exact setup, I can only assume that a few Baileys have passed tech somewhere.
You can't really see the angle of the belt from this perspective, and whatever I have done I'll make sure it crosses the pelvis correctly and is captured in a way that doesn't allow it to slide up and down the mounting point, and that the structure is far enough to the left that the belt isn't wrapped under my hip. I wouldn't think the extra six inches in length is that critical, and I'm planning on purchasing pull-up adjusters so getting them cinched shouldn't be an issue either. I'm very leery about getting the webbing anywhere near the chain. That's probably why Bailey did it that way in the first place.
I do appreciate your concern though, Bob. Believe me, I want it to be safe. It's gonna be my butt in the seat, after all. If I didn't care I'd just leave it the way it is.
I have three good leads on fab shops as a result of this thread, so I'm sure those guys will know what needs to be done.
Thanks for everybody's input.

Jim Jones

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

I know it's hard to understand, but that lap belt needs to "wrap" around your hips/pelvis, not just ride over the top, so to speak, in order to have any tension on your butt, as high up as it is, it for the most part, just goes over your hips/pelvis, it doesn't really pull you down in the seat. Do it right, and you'll see the difference, and if you don't, it might be a long healing period, I've been over hard in my car lots of times, and so have other drivers who have driven for me, one went directly end over on the cage, bagged him pretty good, but otherwise ok, another went over 8 times at Gas City, and helped fix it so we could run the Feature after transfering thru the semi, couldn't do that if they weren't right! Sorry to be so adamant about the installation, but as you might have picked up on, I do have a thing about belts, and proper installation. Bob

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Bob, I think we're saying the same thing, it's just hard to visualize what the belts are actually doing in the picture.
I'm not so concerned that the end result looks like the picture as I am in achieving the desired result, which is wrapped around the pelvis, pulling down at an angle, with the attachment points on the chassis immobilized to prevent shifting out of position. That's easier to achieve by running the belt over to the main frame diagonal on the left side of a TQ or Midget where the driveline is between your legs. I am just as uncomfortable about getting my belt close to a #530 buzz saw as I am about not having the right belt attachment.
Some of the ideas you've come up with would result in the mounting location in virtually the same location I have in mind, albeit just a little lower. I would think that a slightly shorter belt length would be advantageous, all other factors being the same, because it would lessen the elongation of the belt in a hard crash and keep me in the seat even better. Am I missing something? You can't have belts that long in an Indycar, the mount would be a very short distance from your pelvis.
Bottom line, I'm not so stubborn that I won't listen to reason, and if Leaders' Edge, or DRC or whoever I go to has a better idea I'm all ears. This has been a great discussion. I'm glad I put it out there, and I hope I get as much input when I get the car back together and start asking setup questions...

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

The belt needs to come up from as low as you can get it, between the upper frame rail, and the seat, thru the slot in the seat, and across your pelvis, not over the top rail. Maybe we are talking about the same thing, but until you get it away from the top rail, and up thru the slot in the seat, IMHO it isn't safe. I understand the location of the chain, but a guard similar to the one on the yellow car should suffice. The lap belt needs to have some length to it, to allow the wrap around you, and they do need to stretch a little, that's why the installation shows them as they are meant to be installed. Bob!

Re: In need of chassis repair
 

If by "the installation" you mean the picture of the yellow car, that's what I want to do. It will not go over the top frame rail or anywhere even remotely near it, but "between the upper frame rail, and the seat, thru the slot in the seat, and across your pelvis", just as you state. Nothing else is acceptable. Sorry if somehow I failed to communicate that. I now have several guys IM'ing me offering to do the work so I guess I better get busy and finish getting the old girl taken apart. Gotta fit the new bodywork that just came today first, though, so I can figure out where the dzus tabs need to go.
This darn work thing that eats up most of my day is sure a distraction...

I forgot to mention that the bottom of my seat is moved forward about 3" along with the angled mounting. Sitting in the seat, my belt wraps around the pelvis, through the slots in the seat, and mounts about 2" below the bottom of the seat under me. Funny thing was when I bought my car, someone put the original belts in over the seat as well. It scares me to think there might be drivers out there risking their safety on misinstalled equipment. I will get my as-installed pictures tomorrow to show my setup because it differs slightly from the factory picture posted earlier. We need to get ya safe because the season opener is coming......;)

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Re: In need of chassis repair
 

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13:
I forgot to mention that the bottom of my seat is moved forward about 3" along with the angled mounting. Sitting in the seat, my belt wraps around the pelvis, through the slots in the seat, and mounts about 2" below the bottom of the seat under me. Funny thing was when I bought my car, someone put the original belts in over the seat as well. It scares me to think there might be drivers out there risking their safety on misinstalled equipment. I will get my as-installed pictures tomorrow to show my setup because it differs slightly from the factory picture posted earlier. We need to get ya safe because the season opener is coming......;)

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So it sounds like you've got a bit of a layback to your seat. Looking forward to seeing the pics. I made contact with Scott Baue at Leader's Edge and I got the impression he knows just what to do. If all goes well with the disassembly I should be trucking my frame, seat and butt over there early next week for a fitting.
Can't wait to go racing!
JEJ

Originally Posted by jjones752:
So it sounds like you've got a bit of a layback to your seat. Looking forward to seeing the pics. I made contact with Scott Baue at Leader's Edge and I got the impression he knows just what to do. If all goes well with the disassembly I should be trucking my frame, seat and butt over there early next week for a fitting.
Can't wait to go racing!
JEJ

It's still a 10 degree seat. I just kicked it forward for comfort.

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Here's the installed pics I promised you I'd get.

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[QUOTE=PatrickMead#13;322992]Here's the installed pics I promised you I'd get.

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Re: In need of chassis repair
 

[quote=PatrickMead#13;322996]

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13:
Here's the installed pics I promised you I'd get.

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Thanks Pat; looks like ya had a little "Tommy Tipover" there in the second post :31:

I could say I was belt testing or I could be honest and say that my phone is sometimes smarter than I am.... Lol

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