Crate sprints?
 

Had a guy ask me at work the other day about a local track he heard had a crate engine non wing sprint series. He couldn't recall which track but he said they ran the 602 and 604 crate engine with 4bbl carbs. I haven't heard of one here in Ohio but I guess my thought was why isn't there something like this or is there. Thanks

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

There's no crate class sprints but there is a 305 class which is the same idea as a crate class. The 305's in northern Ohio are a strong class with lots of cars. :22:

Cool. That's what I thought. He just swore he was going to build one and try it out. Attica is what I'm thinking for the 305's right?

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

Seen those 305, got a lot of hi priced parts on them, they can run w/ non wing 410's at Fremont & win. There are 305classes at Fremont, & Attica. Plus there is a 305 pavement traveling sprint class. They put on a good show too:32:

Re: Crate sprints?
 

The 305 class, I have been told can be very expensive. Had a friend tell me that you can get almost as much in a 305 as a 410. If we're looking for a cost saver, the create motors seem to be the way to go. A create motor ran at Waynesfield and was very competitive. Even the front runners are starting to run short of cash. Either a create division, or a steel block club that puts limits on motors. Sprint Cars are my love. Lets keep them together!

That was his thing. He used to run late models and he just couldn't compete on the kind of budget we're both used to. He wants to go race sprints and at a local level but not on a national budget as he said.

Do a crate with a single 4bbl and simple ignition and that's it. Something in the neighborhood of $4000 or less in the engine setup would put a lot of rollers back together and on a track. I kinda see where he's meaning by all this.

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It's all about enforcing the rules. You can have all the rules in the world...but they're nothing unless you check and enforce them. Checking them is the hard part.

The MSA sprints up der in Wisconsin seem to be doing well with their "sealed after tech" steel block 360 motors. And you can get a front running motor for 7 grand.

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Very true. Being on top of tech is key to any series for it to keep it together. Reminds of the kart racing days. Come off the track for weight, fuel, compression, and a high five for meeting the rules or a kick in the butt when you didn't.... Lol

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At one time dave blaney was involved in a crate sprint series that ran at the sharon speedwAy. They ran crate corvette motors. I saw the once and there were 10-12 cars. I don't think they are around anymore.

As for Fremont/attica, those 305s apparently started as a junkyard class but they have Gotten pricey. A long thread on pitgate.

http://www.pitgate.com/thread-14992.html?highlight=305

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Wow...lol. That pitgate discussion went way out in left field fast but some of it makes sense about 15-30000 305 engines kinda kill the "budget" for the little guys such as me.

From Looking into it some more, it might be the way I'm gonna go for my dad's sake. He retired and wants to try something open wheel so I'm thinking of obtaining a nice roller and doing a crate 4bbl setup for him to learn / have a blast with for a little guy budget such as mine. He wanted to try my #13 car but what can i say, can't fit a tuna in a sardine can.....;) (sorry pops)

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

I really think after a period of time the creat's, or steel block series would go. Problem is that there
is not many if any in this area, and most guys aren't gonna build something without a place to run. Can't blame the tracks, race cars bring fans and fans pay bills. Might be something to work on in the future. Make calls, have meetings and see if there's enough interest.

Agreed.... I'm thinking this might have some growth potential considering gas prices (fans, teams, and track operations), and everything else costing more. We're still gonna race just have to be more careful how to keep having fun and by controlling the big costs as much as possible can go along way and by keeping a very close eye on rules and their enforcements.

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The problem is that the ones who want a "crate" motor deal usually find another reason not to go when you deliver that to them ie tires, fuel, travel, etc. I know that crate late models tend to struggle with car counts around home. There comes a point when you can't keep dividing classes up over and over. There are lots of reasonably price aluminum power plants out there, that aren't national caliber but can provide a good low budget bullet for local racing. At the end of the day you just have to go race within your means and have fun.

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

You guys are all missing the boat. Check the Race Saver web site for the best affordable and cost effective Sprint Class in the USA. I started with 305's in Ohio in the beginning in 1988, but they have got clear out of control cost wise, but are still successful. I have thought about starting a Race Saver Series in Indiana, but health and age has stopped that idea. They have over 600 Sprint Cars nationally at this time and the group was started by French Grimes in Virginia. Check their web site and some regions listed, also United Rebel Sprint Series and IMCA Sprint Series. The cost of Sprint Car Racing has opened this field up for people that love Sprint Car Racing, but do not have deap pockets.

Re: Crate sprints?
 

Red Hill tried a Jasper Engine crate series years ago... It was a valiant idea but guys with sprint cars already have the other engine stuff ... Guys without were gonna have to buy steel wheels and a 7500 dollar engine they couldn`t work on because of the seals... Carbs on tip over prone cars are kinda scary... If there is enough interest in this grab the bull by the horns, aproach 3-4 local area tracks to run them as a 300 to win 100 to start back up class. Let them run take off tires of any brand (don`t let that gracious 1500$ title sponsor money sway your integrity) , crate engine , invert the whole field from their heat race finish, since they will all have the same power put transponders on them and catch the sandbaggers who think that finishing on the tail of their heat race will start them up front in the feature. Get old Sam Stockon as a consultant because he was the last guy to successfully start a sprint series around here and have it stick. Somebody wins three in a row they get to set out the next three...

But without someone policing all the above you will get the 30,000$ 305 series described in another post. He will cost you a couple thousand a week for him to remain interested in his integrity for your rules... So you will need the promoter to pony up at the least 5 grand a night for your purse and expenses to keep you interested in furthering your venture... All that said... you still have to talk racers into selling their mods, mini`s, bombers etc. to buy into your program to have a full field of cars to get the promoter to roll those dice. If you are still interested and are gonna take the dive... I will be your first guy to commit . I will get me a crate and haul it on my little trailer behind my old 88 Chev truck with 398,000 miles and laugh all the way home with my 100$ in my pocket until I get to the first gas station... :9:

Samsr32, the racesaver class is a good class. In the east Texas, Dallas area we have grown to well over 150 sprints in a few years. We just don't run non wing. This past September we took my racesaver car to little rock to run with Usac. I was a rookie driver with 0 laps in a wingless car. I did not qualify that far behind and ran fair with the 410 and 360s in the heat. I am surprised Indiana does not have a racesaver 305 wingless class yet. Hopefully soon.

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Wow. I applaud this because it is the truth. It's like I told rob, it is possible to do something like he wanted to do, but it would take a TON of work, selling, dedication, and $ to make it work. The carb thing could be solved by tbi, but it would start adding costs and getting the budget moving back up again. On my end, I just want to put something together so my dad can go practice and see if racing / driving is his cup of tea. Now if someone did do a low budget sprint series locally, I'd be interested, but I'm happy with my mini sprint running w/ the midgets @ Montpelier and learning every time I go out.

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

I've been saying all along the crate class is the way to go. The engines are inexpensive and very reliable. They run them in the sportsman modifieds here and it is the best thing to happen. I know guys that run a "stock engine" that have more money in they're top end than in a complete crate motor.

Re: Crate sprints?
 

crate engine would be the way to go, BUT you still need to put limits on other things no adjustable cockpit shocks, no weight jackers, just plain old oil shocks if you dont do that it will be just like the late model deal you will have someone buy 1500-2000 worth of stuff to make there stuff better. thats all it would really take, also a good tech person to check engines, also put in a weight rule, no ti parts. you would be suprised by how many you might get to support this

This is true. $60-80 steel non take apart shocks, steel wheels, etc would help drive cost DOWN and keep it there and unless I'm wrong, it would help control the tech side of things right? I'm kinda glad I started this topic because it has brought out some good information.

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

Question isn't if it can be done, But who's willing to do the work???????????? Scheduling, purses, tech etc.

Re: Crate sprints?
 

Let me add to this discussion a few things. Here is Oklahoma we have a "economy" non wing class. What in sprint cars is economy? This class is bascially what most of you guys are talking about. Our engine is basically a IMCA Northern/Southern sport mod motor. Steel block, steel head, 5.7 rods etc etc. No fuel injection. The class has been around for going on about 4 to 5 years. When the class started there were only three cars. This year I would not be surprised to see 18 to 20 cars. I bet I have about 4 grand in my motor.

Looking around this region of Oklahoma/Kansas and Texas the 305's are growing in popularity but also price as well. Their is a 305 group in Kansas and I have heard of those guys having 12 to 15 in thier motors. This coming from a promoter. I have looked at a complete 305 raceceiver motor that is sealed on line to get a good idea on price and the webiste I saw had a complete motor for near 8 grand. With ASCS going 305's, they are a series, primarily in West Texas and New Mexico I see that 8 grand slowly rising as IMCA and Knoxville both are running 305's.

I have to agree with you okie, the thing about racing a sprintcar is it is not cheap. Their are guys spending 24,000 for a racesaver motor. Call asi in Lubbock. The way I see it, is you CANNOT stop people from spending money. If they are going to out money me then oh well I can't stop it. If its not in a motor, and you regulate shocks or whatever else you want. Some can run new bars, new shocks, new tires, etc. every week. Most can't. I think what you really want to regulate is impossible to regulate, money. If I spend 10,000 and someone spends 50,000, I don't expect to be at their level. But if you have to spend 25,000 on a motor to outrun 10,000 motors then that's your problem. Keep the purses cheap. That's the answer.

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Wish I knew more of how to do this and had the funds to get it off the ground. A winning powerball ticket would be great then I would dig my feet in a give it a try

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. If I spend 10,000 and someone spends 50,000, I don't expect to be at their level. But if you have to spend 25,000 on a motor to outrun 10,000 motors then that's your problem. Keep the purses cheap. That's the answer.


Very well said

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Keep the money spread out. EXACTLY!!! If someone wants to spend a fortune to make 100 bucks more than last place...let em. A lot of guys will still go out there and run, get their starting money, have fun, hopefully be safe, and go home.
I've seen it in go karts....guys spending upwards of 6,7,8 thousand in their kart stuff...just to go win 100 bucks. That...to me...is ridiculous.

I agree. Keep purse money spread out, and don't pay the winner a peanut farm, and give last place a peanut.

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

The worst thing about the crate motors is the authorized rebuilders/sealers....they are contracted to inspect for legality and seal up legal motors...they also do rebuilds. The rebuilds are the problem. Anybody who goes and buys a crate engine straight from the factory will get blown off the track by the rebuilds. Look on the classifieds for crate latemodels and you will see ad after ad selling a USED crate motor built by so and so for 8-10 grand...the autorized sealers also go in and tolerance and bluprint everything right to the limits of the specs and charge handsomely for it. Even though you don't gain hundreds of ponies from the tolerancing you gain enough to see a big difference. Thats the worst thing about underpowered racecars, a little extra goes a long long way. Thats why a legal briggs go-kart motor sells for 2 grand these days, they have found another half of a horsepower which is a big deal on something that only had 5 to begin with.

I love the comment above about people who have to spend 50 grand to outrun 10 grand... why does it seem like the majority fit in that category these days?..haha

Could always do a power limit and enforce it with random chassis dyno runs that way spend money to the moon but only can have xxxhp. This would curb the issue of rebuild cost thru "official" places and gives the backyard mechanic a chance to compete with the money bag. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but a $2000 300hp engine runs just the same as a $20000 300hp engine at the end of the day, right?

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I believe you are right in a sense. But horsepower is just a part of it. 300hp at 6500 rpm and 300hp at 8200 rpm is different. Also that is a big difference in money.

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

In our class it pays 200 to win under 15 cars and 300 over 15. I have had numerous guys say I am not building a car only to run for that. Although, I would like more cars in my head I am thinking fine that just means that the ones that are there now want to be here.

According to the rules we are suppose to have a vacuum rule but the promoter does not check it. I have talked to him about it and he said it is to hard to check since sprints do not have starters. We have a guy who has won the championship two years in a row. He has been torn down and using legal parts. I was there for the tear down at the track.However, his motor is built by one of those "engine builders" . I built my motor in my buddies garage with the same parts.

Re: Crate sprints?
 

Since there is supposed to a lot of old 410's laying around that can not run with the newer high dollar motors why not run them with a 1.75" limit on the intake with a 14 inch right rear tire medium hard and a 10-12 left rear medium hard compound tire with a good wght limit with normal sized driver.No adjustments in drivers compartment and the real size fuel cells no dam midget tanks on them and alum wheels.Payout not top heavy but decent thru out the field.

The money was a little over kill on my post. Sorry. 6000 rpm rule might keep it together

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What is your guys opinion on a 604 or 602 gm crate sprint class like the late models are becoming successful with? That would keep motor costs down, and prolly save on tire costs and fuel costs. Plus maybe they could run starters so tracks don't spend as much time pushing cars off.

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

A lot in Indiana get buy building what they can afford to build and racing Paragon and some smaller tracks and adding to the team as they are able. Those Classifieds aren't all junk, Theres teams selling out (Whole or parting) In 09 there were some teams selling whole cars with motors for 10g and motors for far less. The whole 410 being standard makes for lots of motors and parts out there.

I have no dog in the fight and Im not quite sure what it would cost to put one together, have a few spares and race but most teams I know add over time, Take care of what they got and race for fun and competition.

I sure know one thing, I'd rather see a under powered non wing sprint class than Mini Sprints. Thats just me.

Re: Crate sprints?
 

602 crate engine is the answer, theres no way to police a policy of trusting a owner of not spending a fortune cheating on engine. A sealed crate engine is perfect, leave the starters off. If them engines can pull a big fat modified around with no trouble I'm sure they would be great in a sprintcar. If someone would like to put one together I'm available to drive it and prove my point.

Re: Crate sprints?
 

Crate motors, sealed motors, limited motors, spec engines, all good philosophy until.....we FORGET ABOUT TECH!!! This past Sat. night at BRP Ocala Fl. for the World Crate Championship my buddy got DQ because the pistons were in the wrong holes....Yes the PISTONS in the wrong holes. A crate sealed engine, but they tore it down and everything was good but that and it cost him 10 grand...I applaud to the series and tech guy for catching that.....We also race a LIMITED sprint series here in Florida that was suppose to keep the cost down....SUPPOSE is the key word here...It did until (1) the series QUIT teching motors and (2) racers started getting SPECIAL parts and such. Now this series is done because of it.....on the limited side of it you have a small box you are put in and at ANY COST you can build within that box you do....If it cost 2 grand for a SPECIAL cam that some spent hours to find 4 more HP you have to spend it if you want to run up front cause these LIMITED motors only put out about 490 HP so EVERY EXTRA ounce of HP becomes an advantage....as I said it's done because in Sept. the series director was asked abbout teching motors and his response was "if we do that we will lose cars"...it went down hill from there...23-25 sprints to 10-13 sprints....SO whatever you do to cut the cost it is USELESS unless you TECH and you make the "CHEATING" harse enough you want dare think about it, like my Buddy....he lost 10 grand was suspended for a year from the series and a 2 grand fine.....WTG ...NESMITH CRATE LATEMODEL SERIES...

I am a promoter and series owner (midget/lightning/mini sprint) and am a firm believer on RULES and TECHING. Shocks, we have a shock package that works for everyone...any straight up shock (00lbs) any adjustable shock is (5lbs) per shock...any canister style shock is (10lbs) per shock...
Engine....MUST BE completely stock...have provisions to check that...weight...RR tire...FUEL....NO COCKPIT adjustments at all..PERIOD....

SO THIS WHOLE RANT IS AND CAN BE SOLVED BY TECH...305's ARE OUT OF HAND BECAUSE OF JUST THIS....

anytime you have a money guy that wants to sponsor a series or track that owns or races a car 9 out of 10 times they do it to seek and try to get a rules advantage or change to fit THEIR need...I know 1st hand about that and that person no longer races in my series....

So again any series with rules is ONLY as good as it's TECH

Re: Crate sprints?
 

Back in the old small block chevy days. The pistons had offset pins and if you put them in backwards It raised the pistons up about I think .060" in the bore. Instant compression, just for screwing up, that really brings a little truth in the old saying "GREEN SIDE UP DAM!T".

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

The thing cool about this thread is there is definitely interest in it and so far, haven't seen anything negative about the idea. Tech is the key and it kept the "fun" in a series I ran a few years ago because everyone there knew that it was setups and the driver getting it done

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Re: Crate sprints?
 

TEC? = KISS

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Yes sir....:)

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