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MMSA Banquet
The MMSA would like to thank the 75 cars (33 Members & 42 Guests) from 7 states that raced with us in 2012.
We completed 15 races (10 cancelled,rain & heat) resulting in 9 different winners on 8 tracks ranging in size from 1/5 to 1/2 mi. Making 2012 another successful season Banquet details are posted on the MMSA website, 2013 rules are also posted. Bill may |
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good call on your rules bill if you just fallow through on tech this is what all series and tracks need to do
i bet there will be alot of motors for sale or sitting in the shop now |
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I need response from those planning to attend.
Bill May |
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Count on four of us maybe five.
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Bill just want to say you did a great job this year ! I raced a few with you (alot of Softball games)kept me home for my daughter which is more important to me will do a few maybe next year if the car does not sell, if it sells I am out of racing for awile. Keep working your doing a fine job and the mmsa people should be proud to have you.
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"No after market internal parts, nor lightening of stock parts."
There goes the neighborhood! Good to see. It's important people know what this means; Stock: Cam, valves, rods, pistons, cranks, and gears. I feel like initial inspection should be a pan off. The tech guys also need to know what they are looking for. Posted via Mobile Device |
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Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86: I have one of them little things like a doctor uses to look up different holes in the body to check things out. It is small enough to go into a 10mm spark plug hole and look around, it will also look inside of the crankcase to look for Ti rods ($4000.00 a set) and other things like knife edged cranks. On an old Kaw all you have to do is remove a side cover and stick it in. I know everybody is worried about them $6000.00 motors, and this concern will kill the sport. Motor builders are using pic of championship cars and drivers to build their motor sales, that is a good thing for the builder, then he can sell you guys a bunch of glittering bull *****, the only problem is you probably won't go any faster with the hot rod motor. Look at those drivers and ask yourself "how would they do in my car?" Every body thinks "Spike" is what they need to win the Chili Bowl, But what they really need is a Swindell to drive and set up their car. But racers being what they are go out and buy one of John's cars and keep dreaming about what if. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86: |
If you told me to pull a head or oil pan off at the track I tell you to kiss off know way in hell that's going to happen for the pay we get to win if anyone actually does it I would have to say your an idiot. None of us do this for the money and my ti parts are way to expensive to get dirt all over them hell the ti crank alone DAD was 6g not including the one off set of rods and pistons the special head gasket hell it takes 2 months to get that made got to send the head out to have the gasket made.
Buy a scope no way my motor is coming apart. If you want it to be fare to everyone stop racing ! you needto to stop nothing is fare people. You don't need to work anymore you will still get health insurance and your I phone will be paid in full every month and un 2013 you will get a raise for not working unless your retired on ss then well your screwed Posted via Mobile Device |
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If your going to put a rule in place you have to be able to back it up. MLS has been effect this last season by built motors. It effected car count do to the fact that people who put the time and effort into there racing were being beat by motors that are by far more HP. And people STOPPED showing up. If this is allowed to continue the class will suffer. No one wants to show up to a gun fight with a knife so to speak. Racers have to know it boils down to driver, car set up to win not who has the best built motor or who can spend the most money in the class.
What MLS is looking at is sealing the motors with a NHRA seal then letting the guy take the car home clean it and then bring it to a tech person to inspect it. Yes it is a PITA but this class is not about who can spend the most money. Its about racing open wheel, making a little money and having fun. If you dont back up your rules then leave it open so everyone can compete on a level field. Because no tech is worse then just leaving the class open. |
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Horse power 101
I have been around engines most of my life. My dad owned a large auto machine shop here in Louisville and built engine for many of the racers in the area. A race engine needs to things to be fast the ability to stay together and the ability to make Horsepower where you can use it. If you can not get the power to the track and if you can not keep the motor together the motor isn't very good. In the modern day motorcycle you aren't going to find much power in the bottom end other than increasing the stroke of the crankshaft. The engineers decide on the bearing size at the factory, small enough as to not make too much drag and large enough to last under the loads placed on the bearing by the piston and rod. Lightning the crank, light weight rods rods and pistons will not make much more power but it will make the engine accelerate faster. We had this problem with the 04-05 kawasaki. They made all kinds of power but they were like a 2 cycle with an expansion chamber, all off are all on. They were very hard to hook up. In the next design Kawasaki increased the crank weight by i think 6 pounds. They still had the power but they were much easier to drive. Looking in the bottom end for horsepower increases will not yield very good results. I know for sure that stock rods can leave something to be desired for reliability, but until this year they have never been a problem. Two engine we blew this year, I hope were because of a stuck thermostat and then sticking pistons. One of the engine we blew had been raced for 4 years with just oil and filter changes, and it blew just like our 2 year old motor because we switched out the thermostats in the engine change. Speed merchants are always looking for a sale and will recommend lightened cranks Carillo rods and maybe even ceramic bearings for the gear box. These tricks might be good for a 1 Hp increase. Then they might even suggest taking a few gear out of the gear box, but as long as there is no load on the gear it is not generating much power loss, in other words if you run in second or third gear, forth fifth and sixth are not going to be taking much power away from your engine but it will generate more money for the builder. My fingers are starting to wear out so I think I will stop for now, but will be back later to talk about serious Horse Power. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
I agree and dis agree dad, non wing maybe, winged no. These cars are stuck like glue, 10-20 hp is a huge deal.
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Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86: Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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A stock engine can win against these "built" motors. We did it 3 times this year, almost 4. Right track conditions, driver, and set-up it can win. our "stock" engine was normally 1st or 2nd when it ran with MMSA/AMSA.
I agree it is hard to run against them but it can be done.....just my 2 cents |
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Originally Posted by Midget18: Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
Why all this is true, I can hook up 168 hp to the ground but if you can get 186 to the ground guess what ? I'm going to outrun you. "Plain and simple" this can be done several ways with the foot method stagger and driving style so on and so fourth
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Originally Posted by scott bradley1x: Keep it clean and keep it hooked up and you will run up front with a stock motor. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
This could go on for days or years. All I want to know is is it byob at the banquet or mike going to buy it ;)
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Dad how much more HP does it give you going from 12.4 to 14.1 compression ration?
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You put the hardest tires on these cars left rear rt rear a minimal air pressure say 10psi easy to check on top 3 off the track then who cares what engine package you have someone with less hp will beat you easy to hook up less hp
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They mentioned a hard tire rule, but in southern Indiana from the months of June to August the guys who are fast are already using.
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I wish 2013 would get here already
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Nothing like someone pulling your head off after a race!
Head gasket (goodv one not cheapo)-$80 Labor $300 Oh and keeping everything clean!- NOT AT Racetrack!! Boy that's a cost effective rule!!! I can tell you this!! Someone takes my motor apart and it is proven legal which it will be that person or association is paying for it to be put back together or I will race elsewhere!! Sometimes you just need to suck it up guys and go race ! Maybe it's not motors beating you!! Maybe it's setup car itself driving style!! Those are cost effective changes! Tearing a motor down is not cost effective! I'm all for stock motors and fairness but don't rule yourself silly with dumb stuff! Waynesfield will have a lot more cars if this continues! Think about it 25+ cars every Saturday night at waynesfield! Hmmm wonder why? All I'm saying is come up with something much more cost effective ! My opinion is Darometer a rr tire after feature! That way everyone can run what type of tire they want! Posted via Mobile Device |
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In case you all didnt notice but all he wanted on this thread was to know who was coming to the banquet. :14:
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Originally Posted by Quantrill: There is some real horse Power left in these motors and most of that is in the top end -- Cylinder head and ports, cam shaft and valves. In the late 90's the Japanese motor cycle makers had saturated the market with 600cc cycles. Yamaha and Honda began to develop the 1000cc motor to increase sales. When Suzuki and Kawasaki saw the market they jumped in there also. This also started a Horsepower race between the bike manufactures. They weren't greedy and I guess they let one another improve the breed and let them keep their advantage for a couple of years until the next guy got his turn. They were only shooting for a 4 or 5 HP increase and the best way to do this was head design. Just slight tweaks in port design or valve design was enough to get the desired results, and they kept selling more bikes. We haven't seen them yet, but a few years ago BMW decided they also needed a pocket rocket, they had no deal with the Japanese so they jumped in with both feet. They developed an engine with a 20+ HP advantage over the other liter bikes. Sometimes sooner or later a racer with more money than brains is going to get a hold of one of these things. When you can find one on EBAY they go for 5 or 6 thousand dollars each and no where even close to fitting in a car. Like a beautiful woman they will probably have a very high up keep and parts are very hard to find because you must buy these parts through the "AGENCY" So I really don't look forward to seeing one of them soon. Lets get back to our average $6000.00 dollar race motor. Like I said most of the HP is in the top end.We can mill the head about .020 before you run the piston into the valves. These motors love compression, and the head mill is probably the cheapest HP you are going to find out there. Most bikes makers and Cometic gaskets also have thin head gaskets If you choose not to mill the head. These bike are so precise that all one has to do is mike the head from the top of the head to the bottom of the head and compare it with a known stock head. You won't get a lot of HP here but it will help you on starts and coming out of a tight turn. You could probably check this without removing the head if you wanted to. Porting is also a way to increase power. It is called Volumetric efficiency (VE)the more air you can get in the motor more power you can make. They don't give you a lot to improve on here. If you just grind down the bumps at the valve seats and match the ports you have just about maxed out your 5 axis porting job ($1500.00.) Not too much to check here. Valves> by making the valves larger you can increase VE. This requires new valves. Most factory valves are already Ti, as light as you can get. These OEM factory valves are forged and have an indention forged in the head to form the tulip shape under the valve to direct the air flow. After market valves are machined instead of forged because it is easier to do in small numbers and by keeping them flat on top they also raise the compression inside the cylinder. (This is pretty easy to check with a bore scope. and does not require removing the head to check) Valve springs Well as president Reagan said "There you go again." We could design a scale to check valve spring pres on the seat and at a certain lift also. But With a stock Kawasaki or their race cam They do not recommend heaver springs and the revs can be increased to I think 13500 rpm. The super secret cam shaft. Whenever I get beat I always think cam shaft, it just has to be the cam. This thing is where the engine builder makes a big difference. By advancing and retarding the valve opening and closing events he can change the point where peak VE is reached. This will not make much more power but will change how the motor performs on the track. This is hard to check for but> what the hey we weren't going to check that anyhow. Racing cams, Now we can sure check for these things. We have three types of racing cams> factory racing, regrind cams and welded racing cams. Factory racing cams are produced by the factory for their racing teams. I don't know about the rest of them but Kawasaki keeps the same lift and just open up the cams a little faster to increase duration by about 8 degrees, Not much help here they just drop in and away you go and after you spend a couple hundred bucks for the darned thing you know it just has to be faster. Regrind cam shafts. These cams are reground by the cam grinders to make mild timing changes to the cam. They do this by grinding the cam off all the way around , decreasing the base circle of the cam and changing cam ramp design. (most service manuals give stock cam dimensions if the cam does not come up to spec it is probably illegal. Welded cam shafts> These cams are made to make more power. These cams are ground down then welded back and then ground for longer duration and more lift. They generally always require heavier springs and special pistons to work. There are a few times inside there when piston and valves get awfully close together so we have to notch the piston more for proper clearance between the two. ( You can sometimes see these cam shafts because of the welding done on them, and a mike check will sure prove it, still don't have to pull the head.) Pistons> These things are expensive about like $700.00 a set for the simple drop in type. You can order these things special (usually about a month wait) to raise the compression ratio as much as you dare to. Menthanol loves compression. In the old go kart "B BOMB" days we would keep using thinner and thinner head gaskets and lapping the head until we could just read the piston oversize marks on the combustion chamber of the head as the piston bounced off of the head, that is as close as you could get without blowing the motor and it also made the most power there. I am told that several midget builders are doing this also. Our motors are so far advanced from the old two valve midget motor it aint funny. Our engines come stock with the pistons machined to match the shape of the combustion chamber. There is a small rectangle in the center of the piston that can be used to adjust the compression ratio but as you raise this portion of the piston that rectangle keep getting smaller and smaller and easy to see with a bore scope. If nothing else a JE or Wisco piston is just a lot prettier than the factory stock piston on top. ( Still no need to pull the head.) If someone pays $6000.00 for a race engine and they can't change Valves, Pistons, or Cams they probably also raced 4 cycle karts and are used to getting the old shaft on engine work. There is not much that you can do to one of these things that can't be checked with the use of a mike and a bore scope. Since all motor are different it would be nice if every team had to supply a workshop manual for their particular year and make motor. They can find them on the internet and just print the motor section. We had to do this years ago in the 600 cars. If any of these things are suspect then give the team the choice of a tear down or the opportunity to race with another group. Honest Dad himself:6::6: We will probably talk motors a little. Bill is probably getting a lot of flack about why I'm getting beat. I have a super good driver my car is super high tec I payed somebody $6000.00 to make my motor faster SO they must be cheating. Back when we had a few super light cars I was one of them guys b!tching. If you have a rule you have to enforce it or you take the risk of p!ssing people off. The stock motor rule is great I have attempted to show you guys some ways you can tec these things and not tear them all the way down and put someone out of business. We used to race with a guy we called "stinky" Doug hated following him. He is still around even if not racing, I would strongly suggest fuel samples sent off to a lab to check ever so often with a zero dopeing polocy. |
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Bill
Nathan and I will be there, also I believe my wife and 2 girls will be there also. I will have some Beer, But if you need a lot you may want to bring some with you. (Dont forget to bring someone to drive you home) Looking forward to seeing everyone on Dec. 1st and the chance to talk about next season. Nathan will not be racing with us next year as he is going to be racing a modified. Beau will be back to race with us again for 2013 in the 71B, Never know I may even keep a car and run some next year in the 71, we will have to wait and see. Mike Mensendiek Originally Posted by Bill May: |
Thanks for the beverage info mike .
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Originally Posted by scott bradley1x: Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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Dad,, lot of food for thought on your post. We had two cars that were blistering fast and there motors sounded deeper and throatier then anyone else. Both 06 R-1. Compression and cams?? Can you check for High compression pistons with a compression gauge? Or does valve over lap prevent this from being a useful tech tool?
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Too many variables to ck with a compression gauge, best done by cc'ing at TDC, or, by measuring thru the plug hole, to the top of the piston, with a depth gage, or vernier, and compare with a known diminsion, which would be subject to question also. 2 stock engines might vary quite a bit, due to "parts stackup". That, to me, is the inherit problem, with running "stock engines", too much variation between stock parts, due to factory tolerances, that's why most good engine builders, will "blueprint" you a motor, taking the go-nogo parts to an advantage, ala Briggs, for instance! Bob
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Originally Posted by Quantrill: Compression ratio can only be checked with the cylinder head off of the engine. However the only way to increase it would be Mill the head, can't get too much there, thin head gaskets less help, and after market pistons, the only area there is that small portion in the center of the piston. If you raised that all the way up to a point you would probably have 30 to one CR, that is way too much. Another a .060" higher crown would be good for about 16 to 1 a very good number for alky. It could produce a higher compression reading with a compression gauge but compression pressure is also affected by valve timing and what they call effective compression ratio or when the intake valve closes. Cams with more duration usually have lower compression pressure readings.. These little motors come "blue printed". from the factory, BLUEPRINTING is one of them "Glittering Bull *****" words that let us charge more for our work. There are very few machine shops around that can produce results as good as the Motorcycle people. When they give you 4 sizes of rod and main bearings with less than .001 difference between the smallest and largest that is precision. The things I brought up earlier should do a very good job of checking for non stock motors. These are just a few things that come to mind there are a bunch of other things out there that we could think of. Now back to motor sound. High compression will not make the pop deeper just louder. My motors sound different because of header design. I made some phone calls but nobody would return them. We have several people over here that are running the new cross plane Yamaha, they have that deeper exhaust sound like you describe a lot like a V8 chevy sprint motor. They are supposed to hook up better on slick tracks but they don't have any more power. An improvement on them would be what they call Big Bang motors. There were a lot of rumors that Kawasaki was going to put one of them out in 2010 but that never happened. These motors sound like the V4 Aprilia motors very very deep. I have thought about building one just to see what would happen. They were big over in England a few year ago in grass car racing. Because of firing 2 pistons at once they were very short lived, because of the tremendous load they put on cranks and other engine parts. The TQ guys did this 50 years ago with the little Crosley motor, in fact one guy machined a crank where all 4 pistons fired at the same time. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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Food for Thought.
I was sitting around trying to think of a good way to cheat a little next year. I got on to fuel and fuel oxidizers. What I found out was that if you want to cheat on fuel it is best to do it with gasoline instead of methanol. Methanol unlike gasoline is a pure hydrocarbon. That means that it's specific gravity is always the same when fresh, and can easily be checked with a hydrometer. I learned this a long time ago when I attempted to water down my dad's "white lightning". He came out shook his mason jar and the danged stuff clouded up, that was a valuable lesson to me, but it took 50 years to come back. No matter where you buy methanol it is always the same the big problem is it is also hygroscopic it loves to soak up water from the air around it. This will show up on a hydrometer in the specific gravity of the fuel. Watered down methanol will make less power but treated fuel with the same specific gravity will make more power, so I guess either fuel should be considered illegal. Gasoline on the other hand is not a pure fuel. It's specific gravity changes from brand to brand and even from season to season, because of this a hydrometer is useless in checking for doctored fuel. Reminds me of the E-85 debacle AMSA had a couple of years ago,, Yea they had automotive gasoline bough at the pump but 85% of that gas was Ethanol and it would be just as easy to add 10% or 15% propylene oxide or nitro propane to that fuel for just a little more undetectable power advantage. Because we do not have a standard for gasoline specific gravity a hydrometer will not help a bit in telling us if a fuel sample is legal or not. There are electronic gauges out there to test gasoline, but the numbers also vary from fuel to fuel. There are acid chemical test that might find propylene oxide in fuel but they are expensive and hard to do at the race track. If a race group wishes to allow gasoline as a fuel. To be sure a level playing field for all racers They should supply the fuel to the racers from a known supply that they can compare to at the end of the race when a fuel sample is drawn. Methanol on the other hand Is always the same specific gravity no matter where you buy it, a racer could take a sample to be checked before the race to check for water contamination and then safely race on it knowing that it was a legal fuel. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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I'm not suprised, cheaters never take a Holiday. see you at the Banquet.
Bill may |
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When we were racing 1/4 midgets years ago, they furnished the fuel right in the pits. They even went so far as to put a dab of paint between the gas tank and fuel cap. They never sealed the fuel line to the carburetor. Just pull the line off inject a small amount of kikipo joy juice up the hose shake and you were ready to go racing!!!
What I am trying to say is cheating like stealing is real hard work and requires a lot of though and effort to do correctly and not get caught. If a racer would put forth as much effort into car set up, engine tune and driving they would be much faster than if they put all their efforts into cheating. I gave up worrying about cheaters a long time ago, they won't be the fastest ones out there. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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you guys worry to much about motors and trying to catch those 1 or 2 that are cheating that your not spending time in your own cars. Even with these big motors the hp difference isnt that high. spend more time worring about setup and drving then what everyone else is doing. I spent all last season on setup and figuring out weird things no one does that would work and it paid off big for me. Oh and if you think i have a big motor ill sell it to you for 800 bucks with the jb weld holding it together included lol
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Originally Posted by Bill May: Made my GOOGLE map and it took me to the wrong place again. It's the first drive on your right after you cross the railroad track right. Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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Dad,
You are headed the right direction. Thanks for keeping this thread alive. Bill May |
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When coming to the MMSA Banquet the best directions I can give you is this. From Louisville Ky. Take I-65 North to Exit #55 Jonesville / Seymour, then go North on St. Rd. 11 Approx: 3 miles to Jonesville CR. 950 S. Then West on 950S over R.R. tracks first drive on the right, You can see our building from St. Rd. 11
From Indianapolis take I-65 South to Exit #55 Jonesville / Seymour, then go North on St. Rd. 11 Approx: 3 miles to Jonesville CR. 950 S. Then West on 950S over R.R. tracks first drive on the right, You can see our building from St. Rd. 11 Hope to see all drivers and teams Saturday for the Banquet. Mike Mensendiek |
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Thanks Mike last year the darned GOOGLE MAP did the same thing and I ended up at that fish place on the edge of town and asked for directions there. They do have pretty good sandwiches . LOL
Honest Dad himself:6::6: |
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