Safety
 

With all racing there is a inherent risk that we all willingly accept, that being said it seems lately as drivers and teams are getting every last ounce of HP, TQ out of there engines and the most out of there shocks and suspension packages that speeds naturally increase with those gains. That being said and following a discussion with friends is it time for a change? Or am I in left field and everyone else would just assume leave things alone.

I know change is a tough pill to swallow for many reasons, typically financial reasons championing the rest, but is it time for the industry to give the drivers a fighting chance when it comes to safety? I'd really more than anything love to hear from the drivers on this. Without there input this is a pretty pointless conversation...

If the drivers are looking for a little cushion when it comes to safety what's the best way to accomplish it? Smaller / harder tires? slightly larger chassis that would allow for "crush zones"? (Wings aren't and never will be a option so don't even bother going there... )

My thoughts aren't just based on reducing fatality but also in reducing the back injury's. My concern is that I'm not certain it's avoidable with the current upright position drivers sit in. Is there a way around that? I can't imagine drivers using seats with any sort of layback it just doesn't seem practical.

Let's hear it folks, what do you think?

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As I have been told since I was a young kid. Death and injury are an unfortunate aspect of the game we CHOOSE to play.

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I work at a GM plant, and we start all meetings with the saying, "All accidents are preventable" GM is trying to create an atmosphere where accidents are not tolerated. It is a mindset that states that everyone that comes to work deserves to go home from work in the same condition that they started. When there is an accident, the plant will spend a lot of time doing a safety incident analysis and a "5 why" analysis.

I really do not understand why racers and race tracks do not have the same attitude. Way too many people are stuck in the status quo. How many tracks perform a safety walk? How many tracks have a safety action plan? How many drivers demand changes at the tracks where they run? How many drivers require the sanctioning body make changes at tracks before they race? What new safety features are the chassis manufacturers bringing to market?

The attitude of "things are good enough" needs to stop. I agree with the original poster that we need to look at new technology. I would also say that we need to have some intelligence when it comes to safety.

Does it really take a fatality for us to know that a telephone pole makes a horrible catch fence? Does it take a near fatality for us to know that a wall without a catch fence is incredibly dangerous? Does it take spectators being hit in the pits to know that a 18" steel guard rail is not enough protection to keep a car out of the pits? All three of these things happened in the KC area this year, and as of now none of the tracks have done anything to correct the problems.

Safety is an attitude.

Step 1 for reducing back injuries is seat belt mounting. The lap belt wrapping around the mid rail doesn't stop you butt from moving forward in the seat. Once your butt moves, you lose the support of the seat for your lower back on the next impact. Hooker Harness bolt in belts are a step in the right direction. Kasey Kahne racing also uses a bolt in installation that addresses this problem. Ask any safety equipment manufacturer and they will tell you that belt mounting angle is critical to the belts doing their job.

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Re: Safety
 

I've broken my back twice while racing where there was no safety obtions available. I dont regret not a second of it. I feel very safe while strapped in a racecar. You can only do so much in the name of safety before you change the nature of the beast. Anyhow, cars and equipment are way safer than when i was young and the norm was beer keg fuel tanks, cages welded with lincoln arc welders and the normal drivers outfit was a old open faced helmet, no gloves and wearing nothing but a tee shirt and greasy pants. Oh yeah, you had a lap belt, nothing more. The cars were faster and lighter then too, at least where we were.

How to improve safety... No fines for an old school ass kickin when someone drives with their head up their ass. Haha.

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Re: Safety
 

Bill,

I like your answer, simple and succinct.

Talk to the good people at Butler Built about their new EZsert custom molded seat insert that's designed to be form fitting to the drivers back and bottom to help prevent back injuries. This combined with a set of belts like Hookers ratchet belts will make a difference. I have the ratchet lap belt and I can tell you your butt ain't moving when you crank it down. I personally feel that the seat is still somewhat overlooked in its importance. As Jonr spoke about the driver we lost here earlier in the year, I've heard his seat did not handle the violent crash and was severely bent as well as his belts loosening. I spoke to Steve Adams after his SC crash at THAT. He said his seat was badly bent as well. If the seat fails it can allow slack in the belts. It all goes bad after that because your head restraint and belts can hurt you rather than help you. I'm a locksmith and protecting your house has the same principle as protecting the driver. Everything is only as good as its weakest link.

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ButlerBuilt Sprint Advantage Seat is the only way to go! I've used one since 2003!
J.T. Stapp

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Re: Safety
 

Two safety items that are needed in my opinion are a required kill switch on the throttle pedal in case of a stuck throttle, and a way for the car to be shut off remotely by the officials.

The kill switch gives a driver a chance of slowing down if the throttle sticks. The remote shut off does two things, it gives the officials a way to kill the engine if a driver is unconcious with his foot the floor and also gives the officials a way to stop a driver who will not heed a black flag.

Kinda like what the monster truck guys have had for years

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Re: Safety
 

Repeating myself but I've seen driver wearing fire suits I wouldn't wear for coverals in the garage. Helmets more suited for trash cans etc etc. Spend thousands to get 1 to 20 hp but buy a helmet that's good enough. Saw one driver that had a tear in the sleeve of his fire suit & wearing a T-shirt. DUMB a sweat soaked t-shirt will boil & burn you - bad. 2 pc firesuits shouldn't even be allowed. Spent most of my time as an official arguing safety rules w/ drivers. Drivers believe it will happen to somebody else, problem is theres lost of'em thinkin the same thing

How about Camfield's oil tank rupturing at the end of his wreck? Any concern with hot oil?

What if...... A super duper safe car existed? I assume it would be heavy, or would have some other competitive or monetary disadvantage. Anyone agree? If so, who would have it unless it were mandated? And, if mandated, who would spend the money rather than run with a series that doesn't mandate equipment?

What if a driver had every maximum safety attachment that existed on his/her body? Would he/she have it if it was a competitive or monetary disadvantage? I remember when folks refused to run with USAC because of the HANS mandate.

Seems to me that money and competitiveness, outrank safety......whether it's right or wrong.

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I hate to break it everyone, but what we love and do is dangerous. Plain and simple. I have delt with it more than anyone should ever have to go through and guess where I was at Saturday night, trying to knock the wall down at Eldora. Keep your safety equipment up to date and not over look it. I know its sad that a driver is injured or worse in a racecar, if that is a problem, find another hobby. There is only so much we can do.

Nick Landon

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The late Benny Parsons always said "if racing wasn't dangerous nobody would play golf"

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Re: Safety
 

I agree with Nick , no matter what you do, when it's your time to go, it's your time to go.

Re: Safety
 

Might work well with one or 2 cars at a time, but try and coordinate that with 20-24 or more cars at one time, might turn out to be a disaster, and who would be able to respond that quickly, with that many choices? Much more stuff added to a car, and you have a non-open wheel race, ala Nascar. JMHO, it is a dangerous sport, but then just sitting at home, watching TV, is as dangerous, when you look at the stats, it is tempting fate, and it's tough when we lose someone, but, it's our choice. Bob

Re: Safety
 

So, all of the people that were saved because of the introductions of roll cages should not be alive? All of the people that were saved becasue of the introductions of a five point seat belt should not be alive? All of the people that are alive because of fire suits should not be alive? All of the people that are alive because they have a full face helmet should not be alive? All of the people that were saved because of full containment seats should not be alive? All of the people that were saved because of the HANS device should not be alive? All of the people alive because of Down Tube cars should not be alive?

Safety is an attitude. You can still love racing but demand that the safety features be improved. NASCAR did it with the COT. NHRA is in the process of improving thier cars after Medlin's death. IndyCar took safety into account when building the new cars. It is not an either/or conversation. Look at all of the improvements that I listed in the above paragraph, did any of these take away from the action on the track?

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I hate to think that my local go-cart track at the amusement park can figure out this technology, but that open wheel racing can't figure it out.

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Technology and innovation, are wonderful things, but what it all boils down to, is that you can tear up a freight train , under the right circumstances, as some of the others said, this is a dangerous sport, not flag football.You cannot make these cars, or any race car for that matter, completely fail proof 100% safe.

Let's just put fenders on them so you can't jump a wheel. Let's not let rookies run on half miles. Starters that's safer right. Face it sprint cars are the race cars other cars have nightmares about. If they too dangerous to drive work on own or watch let's all go stock car racing. I learned from a young age at Winchester sh it happens in racing nothing can or ever will change that. Sucks a driver died racing but I think most guys would rather go out like that then behind a desk due to a heart attack.

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Re: Safety
 

:23:I know of several pavement guys that run some type of kill switch on their throttle pedal. I thought it was a great idea and if I was running another sprint car, I would have on installed on mine as well.
:41::When I first saw theirs, I argued that it was traction control because of the type of switch they were using, lol... :22:

Re: Safety
 

Not sure I'd want a kill switch on the throttle pedal, most pedals have stops in both directions, to limit travel, so that might be an issue, I'd be more comfortable with a switch that shuts things down at a pre-determined angle/tilt might be something everyone could use, but the thing is, these cars and chassis, are very limited on space, one of the things that in my opinion, works to a drivers advantage in a lot of cases, there just isn't a lot of extra space for much more than the seat, the driver, and the steering wheel, once you're strapped in, you're movement is very restricted, which is the intention of all the safety equipment, just kinda have to deal with it, too much to do with the actual operation, leaves that much for something else to go wrong, I'd really hate to be running the high side, with someone on my rear bumper, and a switch shut me down, might not hurt me, but the poor guy 3ft off my bumper is gonna feel the effects. JMHO! Bob

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I do agree there are always things that can be done to make a track safer.

But in my opinion, driver safety comes down to one thing. The driver, and his/her diligence on the subject.

I for one, am not a fan of the Hans, I wore one a couple times, and did not like it, so I choose to use my neck brace. I do not feel that it is anybody's job but my own to tell me what to wear, and how to wear it. I currently wear a 2 layer suit, with nomex underwear, arm restraints, Simpson sprint car shoes, good Simpson gloves, and a good Snell rated Impact Helmet.

A few years ago there was an uproar about KO wearing overalls and an open face helmet at the Chili Bowl. Do I feel that's a bit excessive the opposite way, yes (but it sure was cool, love the picture I have in my house of it), but I understand there needs to be minimums, but leave it at that.

Recommend a 1 piece driving uniform that is SFI rated, along with a Snell rated helmet, and leave the rest to the driver. I understand that this really is a problem for many tracks due to insurance, and that is the biggest reason for all of the safety rules now.

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I have run one and have no concerns. Space in the cockpit has no bearing on this whatsoever. I don't see how a throttle stop in either direction will have any bearing on this either.

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It's hard to have a future for the sport if we keep killing off young drivers when they are 20 years old.

I do believe personal safety should be left up to the drivers, but there has to be a point where some common sense in chassis design comes into play.

A wheelbase increase, chassis width increase, and increased chassis height (basically an all round "fattening" up of the car) would create extra area to allow energy to dissipate without it being transferred to the driver.

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Some people think that safety improvements equals slower boring racing. This is absolutely not true.

NHRA Nitro cars go 300 miles an hour and have the fastest accelaration of any race car. This gives them the top speed and the fastest accelaration, but yet they have gone through a major safety improvement initative. They decided that having two drivers die in a car was unacceptable. Thus, they have taken on the task making the cars safer.

The Indy Cars race side by side at 200 miles per hour. They are open wheel cars. When they were building the new car, they made safety a top priority.

Yet, we can't even agree that we need to make safety a priority. It would be nice to think that we can learn from the other series, and take safety serious. :15:

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As those of you, who know me personally, you all know I have been around this for many years, both as a driver, and as an owner, and I've seen a lot of changes in car construction, as well as safety for primarily the driver, which is the big concern, I've also seen a change in how safety, and car construction are looked at, again, in the interests of getting the show moving, and something on the track to keep the "pine knots" entertained, while all the safety things have been brought on board, it has been left up to the driver to ck all this by himself, belts, steering wheel, helmet, gloves, shoes, function of controls, all of which adds up to being as safe as one can make "racing". To me, the thing that is missing, and was in place when I started as a driver, was a "duty" of the pit steward, and I remember it very well, he would ck every car, and driver, for all the things that are left up to the driver to do, he would very quickly, grab your steering wheel, grab your belts, look at your helmet straps, to at least ck the essentials, that you were strapped in as good as could be done that quickly, before you were "allowed" on the track, of course this depended on having most of the cars in the lineup chute as you were called, I can very well understand a driver with his arm restraints not hooked to the harness, the steering wheel not seated and locked, a missing glove, a helmet support not fastened, with all the rush to get to the track, and good help being almost non existant these days, and the pit steward just cking that the cars are in the right heats, or feature, this "big" safety factor has fallen on the driver, who, in his haste to get "in the chute", has missed something, maybe he knows it, maybe he doesn't, but for those of you who think you just jump in, and put on the steering wheel, and you're done, ready to race, have a lot to learn, and need to at least once in your life, take the time, to ask someone if they will allow you to be "bolted" in a race car sometime, it would challange your perspective, as to what is involved. I think at this point, we're lucky that someone hasn't actually fallen out of their car, because of any of the mentioned things, not completing the "package", you can add safety items till you can't see the driver, but until someone who really cares, ck's this stuff, it will not add any safety to the driver. JMHO! Bob

Re: Safety
 

It's amazing to see the smug attitudes towards preserving one of the best talent pools motorsports has to offer.

I dont think a lot of people realize that the safer we make our cars the faster us drivers are goung to try and go which equals a lot harder crashes and worse injuries. They handle to good and feel way to comfortible. No one and i mean no one should feel safe driving into 3 at kokomo wide open and feel safe almost all of us do and thats the scary part. The human body can only take so much thats why cars are ment to bend. Just like a post earlier i dont believe in the hans FOR sprint cars either. Its a good devise just for other pavement stuff. Dirt crashes aren't pavement ones. And an injury or death is something that we drivers need to be concerned about not fans. We take on that responsibility and that is our burden. Wives fans and family worry every time we hit the track yet we dont flinch cause it is our dream to be out there and put on a show for you the fans. So let us police ourselves and just come and enjoy the show.

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Re: Safety
 

Billy, I think this was the best post on this whole thread ,:6:

Re: Safety
 

Very well said.

Jerry #66j
stida.com

Re: Safety
 

Can anyone else see the flaw in this logic? Drivers, crews, and owners are always trying to make thier cars go faster. I have never met a race car driver/crewmen/ owner who said that they didn't want to go faster than the last time that they were on the track. The improvements in the speed are coming. Someone is already trying to find the new trick part. The question is are the safety improvements coming as fast? :15:

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Billy, you've just said more at one time, than you have in all the years I've known you! Good post! Bob

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I believe we already have these cars (Silver Crown Cars?) It does not appear that people are lining up to watch or race them. (Not meant to be a slam on that class, I hope it survives). Fact is, if it's slower/heavier than the current sprint car or midget, I don't want to race it. I don't even like racing 360's, and I'm pretty sure that this topic was prompted by an incident involving a winged 360. I believe that we can all take a close look at safety and apply due diligence, but I am not going to turn my sprint car into a late model and restrict myself to racing on quarter mile tracks with Nerf walls and Bungee fences.

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Is it time for:

1. A series safety director. I was a little surprised when I ran Winchester and never had my gear checked, but the next week it was fully checked at Peru. (Good job Peru)

2. As a coach (and with Earnhardt) has it come time for a brain test after severe crashes. After getting their bell rung, a high school football player must exhibit brain functions on a computer. The safety director could be in charge of this. Will he/she be a little expensive, yes, but what is a life or a crippled person worth?

3. I know weight is speed. Would properly mounted seats cost too much? While properly mounting the seat how would a bar or better yet a plate to prevent the center section from hitting the driver in the spine or hips work out. (Jason Blonde or Brad Doty care to weigh in)

4. Finally for someone a lot smarter than me. The brain moves on impact and it is the second collision that does the damage. When using both a neck restraint and surround seat, is it causing too much restriction , leading to some brain injury. Might we be better off using just one?

Hope these lead to thinking and not a big fight on this board.

Re: Safety
 

There is no simple answer...lots of good answers in these responses...includes having safety teams that are well-trained and well-equipped...proper seats and seat belt systems...head/neck restraints...attention to detail...when kids learn in quarter midgets to have their heads/upper bodies outside of the cages, that is a poor start in safety awareness. Things like having foam/water fire suppression on-hand when using methanol fuel is so basic...and so few are prepared. Safety is not a fixed target- progress means change, and some times, relinquishing tradition.

Re: Safety
 

Snoopy, I tend to agree with you, maybe a bit too much "attatchment" in this case, maybe someone needs to send these thoughts to 'MythBusters", and see what they come up with, I feel like there has been too much "theory", and not enough actual testing, and way too much "mandating" of things we don't know all that much about, being more or less, forced on openwheel, by Nascar, or the "tintop" nation if you prefer, there is a big difference in the two types of race cars, to just kinda lump them together, and follow suit, I'm not a fan of the Hans either, and in most cases, in my opinion, the drivers don't have the straps/tethers tight enough, when you can actually turn your head, enough to see what is beside you, or look up into the stands, a simple helmet support looks like it has your head in a better safety position, I prefer the Hutchens device myself, not as easy to get in and out of, but it does hold you in position better, IMHO, and I don't enjoy helping my driver into it, especially when we're due in the chute, but he doesn't go on track, until it's all hooked up like he wants it. Bob

Every time someone is hurt or killed, a change is made to prevent (or, at least, postpone) it from happening again. But, it doesn't appear to do anything (look up "intangible"). Seems as though it's always a freak occurrence or otherwise 'freakish' set of of circumstances that's ends in the worst way. Does nobody agree that the bad things will continue to happen, no matter what? For those that want absolute safety, how much would you pay to watch your favorite drivers sit on the front stretch and play checkers, or chess, or othello, or UNO , etc. Isn't danger part of draws us in? Don't respond, please. Just examine your own particular feelings truthfully and honestly and leave it go at that. Don't get me wrong. I don't wanna see any of my friends or colleagues end up hurt in any way. All I'm saying is, try all you like. Sprint car divers (and all others for that matter) are still going to get hurt (unless of course you mandate the board game thing that I suggested earlier). And they will still find a way even if........

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