mini sprint evolution
 

Check out mini sprint evolution on facebook. Looks like a awsome cost saving idea. 1000cc engines are starting to get pretty expensive. This idea is pretty interesting. I understand Ford Motor Company has something to do with this.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I read the facebook post & comments, Sounds like the ford focus series motor, HP about the same as a stock
1,000cc, the cars weigh about 100# more than an upright mini sprint w/o the wings, I beleive cost is 5-6k$, maybe they plan to reduce that,
Bike motors are not that hard to find, yet.

I like the concept, innovation can be a good thing, will follow the development,

Bill May

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I agree Bill....if the cost can be cut in half with out the high dollar bolt on acc. it can be very good...you can still find STOCK right off the bike engines at 2-3,000.00 ....as long as it can be policed as STOCK!

This engine will start out just like every other stock racing spec engine cheap. Then smart racers will find away to get the advantage and maje it faster. Therefore price of the engines will go up. Why change a good thing when its going good right now. Mini sprint car counts are way up since the uprights went to 1000 and got rid of the 600. All you guys have to do is your home work to go fast. Some of the people driving these mini sprint cant even work on them or tell the crew what the car is doing. These are not quarter midgets or karts. Races are won by work done in the shop and drivers knowledge of whats going on.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I can sure see a lot of room for improvement on that motor they got in the picture. No way they can get more Hp through that plastic intake and little biddy throttle body than a modern day 1000cc pocket rocket motor. The Tsunami as well as other classes switching to these motors has caused a spike in price of them. Nothing like a shortage to bring the cost of doing business up, weather it be oil, doctors or 1000cc motorcycle motors.

You could spend a ton of money on that Ford motor. But hot rodding a late model 1000cc cycle motor is like buying a brand new Indy car and motor and going home and taking the motor apart and trying to making it faster. It just ain't going to happen. Once you break the case on that motor it just is never as good as that bone stock motor, I know.
It just ain't going to happen.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I feel like this is a ford focus midget.

Tq evolution would be a better name.
How bout we combine focus, Tqs, and these cars... Rearends optional. 1000cc limit, wing or non wing.

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---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------

I don't know what we need but I do know we don't need another class of 72 inch and under cars... If the three cars could meet on rules car counts would be insane..

Still thinking about taking a 1000cc and putting in a driveline... Just to see what the difference would be.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Let's see you must be the one that works all the time and got more money than brains.;);) Find a Kenyon car take out the old motor and put in an R-1 and you are off to the races. That is if you can keep your feet on the ground long enough to race.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I dont think minisprints need a evolution. 1000cc bike engines are about perfect for the cars. I like what DAD said.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Some insite Ford has worked with this engine in other forms of desert racing.These engines are going 5000mi plus with only spark plug and oil changes. Ford has a great way of locking the ecu so tech is easy.
Base engines can be bought all day long for $750.00. Yes there is a lot or room for hp improvements,but thats not what this is about. We are going to a chassis dyno with this engine and 2 other mini sprint engines to get a base line.

I do work all the time, but not a whole lot of money... Dad if I had your money I'd buy that hot air balloon and fly it over one of those pro women rally's ... What's you slogan on the balloon"no muff is too tough" !!!

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

I think we have already seen what happened in USAC with the Focus midgets. It was suppose to be a cheaper class and then guys started putting money in them to where they were putting as much into a focus as the regular midgets. So everyone either stayed with or went back to the regular midgets.

Mini sprint counts are up and if you leave them stock they hold together. I don't see the need to re-invent the wheel. Besides wouldn't you need to get a whole new car if you change to the Focus? I'm sure it won't fit in all mini sprint chassis.

Instead of seeing about running a Midget with a wing with the mini sprints why not see if you can run it with a wing with the midgets? It would be closer to being legal there. Or better yet run it with no wing with the Midgets as it is too a MIDGET.

Hope it fails, minisprints are just fine way they are now, 1000cc motors do the job.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

In my 30+ years of racing, a stock 1000cc chain-drive mini sprint has been, by far, the most unreliable powertrain I've ever owned. Just looking at our sanctioning body, the engine/driveline has the highest catastophic failure rate I've ever seen, not to mention the minor failures that cause weekly DNFs.

If provided with the option of a reliable engine/driveline I'd stay in this class... but, I wont waste another dime on a 1000cc go kart...

Ive had 2 chain failures in 10 years, both were due to me not wanting to replace an worn out chain...

Our series allows a drivetrain.. No one has built one yet.

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I had 1 chain problem out of 4 years of minis. Life would be easier with a quick change but car counts do not need a another mini sprints class just to makes use of one. Put it in a midget,there needs to be one more midget class.

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Ok so if it weighs more than a mini sprint, has less HP than a mini sprint, & costs more than a mini sprint,... how is it a mini sprint evolution? I don't consider that a step in the right direction. Not to mention that the Wisconsin mini sprints are one of the biggest groups in the country. They are doing fine with inline 4 cyl. motorcycle motors. No evolution needed there. Plus that car is a midget to begin with.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Is there any mini sprint orginization that will to let this car run with them?

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Keep your eyes on the "echo tec's". They can give a full midget a hard way to go right now and they are a lot cheaper to own. The motor it self is a lot closer to a race motor to start with than the Focus, block, crank valves and ports. The big problem with 2 valve motors is those big old valve springs required to keep those big old valves, rockers, and push rods under control, that is why the Esslinger motor does so well, but they are still held back with a poor combustion chamber and big old heavy valves. A good 4 valve head does not need a lot of spring pres. to keep the valves under control and are much more efficient they can make more HP with less cubic inches.

That little 4 valve V8 scared all the midget people to death at the Chili bowl a few years ago and all it was was 2 motorcycle jugs and heads bolted to a special crank and crankcase. Typical race response "OUTLAW THAT THING BEFORE IT MULTIPLIES". Seems a little stupid to me. If it works use it don't outlaw it. They didn't say anything to Runyon about his V8 20 years ago because it wasn't up front, had he had more time with it he would have been outlawed too.

An Esslinger with a 4 valve head would be really fast and rebuilds would be a lot further apart because of the stress removed from the valves and springs. Them old guys used to make race heads for their Model A's and flat head Fords, Esslinger's head are anything but a stock Pinto head. Why not a 4 valve Esslinger, because they would either outlaw it outright or make rules to slow it down.

Are we trying to keep the cost of racing engines down or the cost of rebuilding race engines UP? Like TQ's "God love" them they have a policy of racing an engine for at least for 30 years before changing them Crosley's 30 years Honda 750 cc 30 Years, they run them until they have to buy them out of a museum and the price skyrockets.

Racing is suppose to lead technology and not follow it, people in racing right now are way way behind the curve !!

"LETS GET WITH THE PROGRAM."

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

This engine that is being used is a 2.0 duratec 2008-2011.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

[quote=latemodel55;292223]This engine that is being used is a 2.0 duratec 2008-2011.[/QUOT


I don't mind running against them until they beat Me.:5:

Then we outlaw them.

Honest, any organization wanting to grow should at least see what they have to offer. It is hard to start out fresh with a new Idea unless or until somebody gives you a break.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------



Mini sprints "1000cc midgets" is what I meant to say are nothing but a midget chassis already with a sideways motorcycle engine in them. Install a new motor plate and rear end and you are ready to go.

Kenyon midgets are that already just missing a few Horsepower (motor kinda of old school) they were cutting edge when they first installed them. "Time marches on!"

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

It's not like mini sprint motors haven't evolved for years, they have evolved with the motorcycle industry. The mini sprints have gone from the 1100 GS to the 1100 oil cooled GSXR to the 1100 water cooled GSXR to the 1200 Bandit to the 1000's that are being ran today. These are new motors with new technology. The good thing is that the manufactures are doing all the R&D for power and reliability for us. We just have to sit back and roll with changes. As Dad said before it's when you start messing around in these motors you shortin the fuse.

This class has always been about economics and with the way these engines are preforming now you can get power, reliability, and cost effectiveness if you leave them stock. It certainly dosen't help with the economics if you have to change everything over to a midget.

As far as running this against the mini sprints, it's not just about what if it beats you. It's about what if it takes you out unintentionally. Things happen on the race track and if a car that is not legal to be out there spins in front of you and lets say your leading and hit it you will not be happy.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

It takes a few years to learn that you don't use master links or cheap chains and how to adjust chain tension with car a ride height and driver in.

GO-KART do you race a sidewinder?

Find somebody who has raced these things for a while ask them for help chains are not the problem it how you use them.

After you do that you got it licked.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 AM ----------

Then-----lets make them legal, if they work everyone will switch to them if they don't work that will be the end of the discussion, but let's give them a chance. I don't like the idea of push trucks, but** the tracks we race at the gear might be low enough they could get by bump starting with only the starter motor.

When I raced "micro midgets" back in 19%& (I had to retire when my dad could no longer pick up the back of the car and run and drop me on the track to get me started.

We would have to work around the starting thing.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

You learn quickly that chain maintenance is a key factor with a mini sprint. You need to clean it after each race, not just keep dumping chain lube on it but actually clean it so it moves smoothly.

Also, chain does go bad....they stretch out, become weak. Lay an old chain on the ground next to a new one and try to bend it sideways. You can see the difference.

If your chain is an afterthought when it comes to car maintenance you are going to have problems.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Would they really be capable of going faster than a regular minisprint running a 1000cc with a chain drive? The power numbers look close to an 06 yamaha and we were told that quick change rear ends rob smaller motors like the 1000cc of power.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

It's all talk about fixin something that aint broken. p.s. I've raced chain driven vehicles for lots of years, never dnfed because of a chain problem. I've seen lots of other's dnf because of chain problems. Good setup and maintance, should have no problems.

I'm for quick changes in minis just because it will make it easier,but a chain takes way less HP to turn then a quick change so unless everyone changes I keep the chain. But as I said before this motor is not needed for minisprints.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Dad, the engines will be self starting. You will bump start them with the starter, Ford by-passed the 500 min rpm to start in the ecu.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

That may be the new focus motor usca coming out with the new one for next season ands its going to be a ford.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Call Bill May, talk to him about running with us, Most of the MMSA people are pretty easy to get along with. I for one would like to see one of these car on the track. Just remember "you are not allowed beat us".

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

How familiar are you with the WIMS group? Or, how do you define “doing fine”? Before the ½ way point in the season they had 10 engine failures.



So as to not bore everyone with the details of my maintenance program, set up, or the quality of the equipment, I'll just say that none of those is the problem. In fact, I've never had any problems with the chain. But, as a result of repeatedly getting airborne, I have had all the teeth ripped off a brand new sprocket by a DRZ2 chain w/rivet link, that was immaculately cleaned, lubricated, and properly adjusted.

I couldn’t agree more that the problem was how I was using it… I shouldn’t have been hitting the double jump on the exit of 4.

I don't question those that say the current engine/driveline package is working fine for their tracks and conditions. On my home track with typical conditions, i.e., holes, ruts, jumps, etc, I expect engine and driveline failures to be common... and they are.


Chain & sprockets = go-kart, quick change= race car:D

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

If your track has holes, ruts, jumps ect. maybe your lucky to be running a chain, the weakest link breaks. I'd also think maybe you need to find a better track to run on. You state yourself that driveline and engine failures should be expected being the state of the track you run on, so how does that make a chain drive racecar a gokart ? Hmmmm Just in the past week I've been informed I'm not a real race fan, and now I find out I dont even own a racecar, lol. I wonder how the guys that spent close to 20 grand on a Henchcraft feel knowing that they paid for a racecar but got a gokart.

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

All dirt track do the woopty doo's things ever once in a while, some more than others. These things are not designed to do motor cross, If I wasn't so darned dumb and had access to "cad pro", I would plot my pick up points and see what movement the rear axle does under bounce and rebound, and design accordingly. The best way to keep the chain on is the old wishbone a la Henchcraft with the front pivot being at the front center of the front sprocket . However This is not the best point for turning the car and traction out of the turns, so we compromise.

I would look at maybe the Honda odyssey deal with independent suspension and lots of travel, and or go out and hire somebody that knows how to "farm" a dirt track.

Some dirt track operators really do take pride in a well maintained track, but that is one heck of a lot work, and I guess some of them want a life away from the track.

Dirt tracks are better for the drivers, Paved tracks or better for the promoter.

I would rather be racing than shooting at bulls.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Regarding the WIMS group on motors... If the team that blew 5 motors this year would leave them stock and not open them up every week they wouldn't blow!...K9 car had probably over 30 races on his motor... For the other motors im not aware of if you keep them stock unopened, oiled properly and cooled properly you wont blow them up!..

I been running with WIMS for 10 years and the majority of these blow ups over the past few years have been poor cooling and oil lines done poor...

I been running 2 motors since 06... 1 now has about 35 plus nights and the other i bought used and busted the trans with about 40 races on it...

01, and 74 Car are going on their 3rd year on their current motors... The 26 car has well over 50 races on it..

These clowns starting this mini sprint Evaluation are telling people the motorcycle motors are hard to find, to expensive and unreliable?..Plus i heard a good one that a guy said the motorcycle motor is uncertain in the future and will stop production?... REALLY?..Sounds like these newer car owners are being sold on a good line of Bull?!

WIMS has built up to 30 cars and a great car count of 20 plus weekly... Why re invent the wheel and pull apart a group that has already established itself?...

I think the best thing for you guys to do is start a new group and leave the WIMS group out of it... Why make this class even more expensive ?

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Dad, Are you saying that if you had a 6-axis Romer portable CMM, running DezignWorks reverse engineering software inside of SolidWorks, that you would reverse engineer a new Henchcraft, run motion analysis on it, then re-design it? Yeah, I would never do that.;) And, Bobby Michnowich isn't kicking their asses out in California (when his motor doesn't blow up) with my re-designed Hench either.:3:

Again, I have no chain issues per sa. We have that figured out. The new DLX car handles the rough so well that you can run right through it... and that is a problem... way more tire than a bike... locked down with a wing... running wide open... through holes, etc. The shock loads far exceed the original design parameters of the powertrain.

Whereas the DuraTec motor is designed for a 3000 lb vehicle, not a 400 lb bike...with proven reliability in dessert racing (no failures in 5000 mi).

Honestly, I'm just glad that a few people are open minded enough to develop something like this. Not to mention their willingness to invest their time and money without any guaranty that it can run somewhere.

Me... I'd park the mini sprint and pick something else to race, ride, or drive... maybe motocross:16

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Yeh, you got it right "The angle of the dangle is equal to the heat of the meat providing the mass of the arse remains constant":D;)

You ride with the best and you limp like the rest.

I take it you race a DLX chassis. Isn't that a tripple x chassis that has been cut up to allow one to install a motorcycle engine in sideways for chain drive.

Best I can recall the tripple X was a reverse engineered (Knock Off) of Spike chassis. I think they were produced off shore to beat the cost of one of John Godfrey's Spike's. They are good cars. We ran second to one a Tulsa a few years ago. We race a FSC chassis built by AJ Felker.

SOO since you already have a midget chassis all you would need would be a motor plate, motor and drive train and you would be ready to go race Focus knock off ,or you could probably run with some forward thinking minisprint groups. I would love to race with your car and if it was cheaper you can bet I would try to get one also.

Stock motorcycle motors have no problems with reliability. I have raced zx10r motors since 2005. I blew up my 2008 because the thermostat stuck and the shower injectors were shut down with a cleaning plug we forgot and left on. Then like a dumby we installed the original 2005 motor with the same stuck thermostat.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

My oil cooled gsxr1100 does the job still.... Of course I don't usually turn over 7500 also

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

My GSXR 1200 oil cooled still does the job too. Still holds a couple of track records from before I owned it, turns 10500 rpm no problems whatever. Most people dont know that the gsxr oilcooled engine's are over built big time and are still in demand for nitro drag race bikes. You dont need the latest greatest thing out there to be competitive. If you run a car engine and driveshaft it's a midget. Be prepared to have your gsxr oilcooled engine called a boat anchor, right DAD ?

Re: mini sprint evolution
 

Amen::
Marvels through modern chemistry:5:Nitro make great power in almost anything, even boat anchors! And it don't need a drive-shaft to be a midget, that is just an old wives tale. Back in the 40's and 50's the old 45 cubic inch Harley Davidson's did a pretty good job powering midgets with chain drives (or was that TQ's).

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I just don't like how these guys are above the rules. If you let one person bend the rules, it opens the flood gates & soon enough everyone will want to run a street car motor. Eventually the club could transform into a high dollar midget class... Don't get me wrong, its a neat idea, but it should be racing in some type of midget class like focus, ecotec, or Illini Racing Series. Mini sprints need to stick with bike motors. They are cheap, reliable and have a high availability.

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Re: mini sprint evolution
 

E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N==== Change hopefully for the bettter. We are a midget class dang it. 1000 cc midget.

If it works it works if it don't it don't. Mini sprints almost died out about about 15 years ago the only thing that save them was the little 600 cc cars and then the 1000cc rocket ships.

You are either changing or dying. I think that is what has happened to Champ cars , and full midgets. Time marches on racing needs to do the same.

I understand even NASCAR changed to electronic injection and did away with carbs about 20 years after Detroit did. Quarter midgets finally put the Continental Red Seal to rest, and even three quarter midgets are looking at the old 750 Suzuki motor :deadhorse:as an improvement over the 40 year old Honda 750 cc motor.

If a guy has a good idea at least give him a shot.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

---------- Post added at 1:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 1:35 PM ----------

After you have been taken as much as we have it don't get to you as much. Let's race.

Honest Dad himself:6::6: