ethanol sucks
 

usac is trying to destroy the silver crown series by running ethanol. ethanol makes less power and costs more money. i will sadly not be at the hoosier 100

Re: ethanol sucks
 

The price per gallon may be a little more but you will use half the fuel. The power gap isn't really very wide either. Its just getting your engine to run on it properly that's no easy. Fans wouldn't tell a difference. Most likely not a good move for their series.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

using half the fuel means destroying tradition. might as well run midget tanks then. ethanol will destroy the series period

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Use less fuel? If it is anything like in a street car you will get less fuel mileage. My truck and some friends cars have flex fuel. We get about 5+ miles per gallon less than with regular unleaded fuel. Maybe it is different with the racecar since they are actually tuned to just run on ethanol. Hopefully someone can explain in better detail.

Todd Kimmel
Todd Kimmel Racing

Re: ethanol sucks
 

The fuel to air ratio is greater with methanol than it is with ethanol, don't know the exact number but comparing regular gasoline(14 to 1) E85(10 to 1), Ethanol(9 to 1) and methanol(7 to 1) The first number being volume of air the second being volume of fuel. Takes more air to burn gasoline and less air to burn Methanol, ethanol is somewhere in between. Less air means more fuel.

Todd, ethanol is indeed less dense than gasoline and thus less efficient in a street car, however, silver crown cars run methanol which is even less dense than ethanol. The fuel mileage won't be double, based on specific gravities and Joules involved it should be similar in efficiency as methanol but less powerful using the same volume.

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Re: ethanol sucks
 

you will not use less fuel than methanol, and will not have as much power period END OF SUBJECT...

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Hopefully the influx of money from the ethanol folks will keep the series on life support and future better economic
times will increase the car and spectator counts to a sustainable level. The uncertain effect ethanol will have is no
comfort to existing teams or prospective race teams (I do actually know a couple of folks near ready to field new
champ cars) but to me, Silver Crown on ethanol is WAY better than no Silver Crown at all.

You dont know what you are talking about. Ethanol will destroy the series and you will see smaller tanks period.

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Re: ethanol sucks
 

How about the cost to replace all the bladers on the silver crown tanks?:D

Didn't even think of the density side of things. Guess that's why I just stick to driving. Thanks for clarifying though.

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For the energy equivalency of one gallon of gasoline you need two gallons of methanol and 1.5 gallons of ethanol thus meaning it is more efficient thus requiring less fuel to do the same task and you will be shocked to find out how much less they use. And any fuel system that can handle methanol can handle ethanol methanol is more corrosive.

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Haha and if knowing and stating the facts and being informative makes me an idiot what does that make you? I personally could care less if I ever see another crown race but if you are a crown fan as you state you aren't being very true by refusing to go because of the fuel they run. You wouldn't have a clue what they are running from the stands.

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Go to stockcar racing cause you dont fit in openwheel and people like u ruin racing

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Re: ethanol sucks
 

well your all wrong

Re: ethanol sucks
 

well I have tested at raceway park ran on dyno whats your claim to fame.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Well for years USAC has tried to kill this series, look at the history. Maybe they'll be successful this time. Time will tell.

Also, ethanol isn't all bad. Ask Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, and guys like that.:)

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Calistoga, clearly you don't have a silver crown car, so this topic is totally irrelevant to you, and if you want to get into a pissing match about who contributes more to open wheel racing, then you are probably barking up the wrong tree kid. I don't see them instituting an ethanol rule at Paragon anytime soon, so I would say you are in the clear. If not, there is always Calistoga! I don't think anyone is going to really care if you are at a race or not truthfully, you are proving your intelligence and maturity on a public forum. You have absolutely no idea what is going on, sit in the stands, enjoy yourself, if you don't have anything intelligent to say be seen and not heard, and I certainly would go to stock car racing given the opportunity, I would say Frankie Kerr is doing alright. You don't belong in the pits around a racecar, and i'm not sure if you even belong at a track.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

[QUOTE=dustbowl;267326]The price per gallon may be a little more but you will use half the fuel.
Actually,you will use twice as much fuel.The reason is that alcohol, in any variety, contains about half the heat energy of gasoilne. It also takes a lot of spark to light it off,which is why it is so resistant to detonation.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

[quote=I Miss Manzy;267369]

Originally Posted by dustbowl:
The price per gallon may be a little more but you will use half the fuel.
Actually,you will use twice as much fuel.The reason is that alcohol, in any variety, contains about half the heat energy of gasoilne. It also takes a lot of spark to light it off,which is why it is so resistant to detonation.

I believe the comparison was with methanol, not gasoline.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

I stand corrected!! :14:

Re: ethanol sucks
 

I have heard that the silver crown teams will get their fuel for free so that will save the teams some money. You will burn less fuel with ethanol but your motor is going to run approx. 35-60 degrees hotter. So in order to get the temp back down to a comfortable level you are going to have re-engineer your plumbing system to try and cool the motor better. Bigger radiators are going to be needed. For the fuel system you are going to have to change the fuel pump from say a 450 flow to possibly a 300 flow. Smaller nozzles, smaller diameter intake stacks. What everyone doesn't realize is the issues that the valve trains will have at a places like Iowa or even the dirt miles.

I like the arguing. Makes the off season interesting. This place is almost as fun as 4m these days. Half the fuel half the distance half the fans.

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Originally Posted by monkeyboy:
I like the arguing. Makes the off season interesting. This place is almost as fun as 4m these days. Half the fuel half the distance half the fans.

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Not to mention using food to make fuel. How counterproductive is that?

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Re: ethanol sucks
 

It's from Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol

There are two main types of corn ethanol production: dry milling and wet milling. The products of each type are utilized in different ways.

In the dry milling process the entire corn kernel is ground into flour and referred to as “meal.” The meal is then slurried by adding water. Enzymes are added to the mash that convert starch to dextrose, a simple sugar. Ammonia is added to control the pH and as a nutrient for the yeast, which is added later. The mixture is processed at high-temperatures to reduce the bacteria levels and transferred and cooled in fermenters. This is where the yeast is added and conversion from sugar to ethanol and carbon dioxide begins.

The entire process takes between 40 to 50 hours, during which time the mash is kept cool and agitated in order to facilitate yeast activity. After the process is complete, everything is transferred to distillation columns where the ethanol is removed from the “stillage”. The ethanol is dehydrated to about 200 proof using a molecular sieve system and a denaturant such as gasoline is added to render the product undrinkable. With this last addition, the process is complete and the product is ready to ship to gasoline retailers or terminals. The remaining stillage then undergoes a different process to produce a highly nutritious livestock feed. The carbon dioxide released from the process is also utilized to carbonate beverages and to aid in the manufacturing of dry ice.

Doesn't sound too counterproductive to me.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Sorry, but livestock feed doesn't sound to palatable to me. If you look at corn prices, there is a direct correalation between the cost of corn and the production of ethanol .

Also do to the government subsidy of the ethanol industry, besides the food costs increasing, I also get money removed from paycheck to pay for it's production. I also subsidizes it's growth, with pay outs to farmers.

Seems like the only winners in this deal are the ones on the government teat. Take away the subsidies, let it stand on it's own merit, sink or swin, and maybe it will get a little respect.

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Originally Posted by racephoto1:
Sorry, but livestock feed doesn't sound to palatable to me. If you look at corn prices, there is a direct correalation between the cost of corn and the production of ethanol .

Also do to the government subsidy of the ethanol industry, besides the food costs increasing, I also get money removed from paycheck to pay for it's production. I also subsidizes it's growth, with pay outs to farmers.

Seems like the only winners in this deal are the ones on the government teat. Take away the subsidies, let it stand on it's own merit, sink or swin, and maybe it will get a little respect.

Looks like the government ethanol subsidy you use for part of your argument may be disappearing anyway.

Link: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...75F5IN20110616

Re: ethanol sucks
 

Originally Posted by koolaid89:
It's from Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_ethanol

There are two main types of corn ethanol production: dry milling and wet milling. The products of each type are utilized in different ways.

In the dry milling process the entire corn kernel is ground into flour and referred to as “meal.” The meal is then slurried by adding water. Enzymes are added to the mash that convert starch to dextrose, a simple sugar. Ammonia is added to control the pH and as a nutrient for the yeast, which is added later. The mixture is processed at high-temperatures to reduce the bacteria levels and transferred and cooled in fermenters. This is where the yeast is added and conversion from sugar to ethanol and carbon dioxide begins.

The entire process takes between 40 to 50 hours, during which time the mash is kept cool and agitated in order to facilitate yeast activity.





After the process is complete, everything is transferred to distillation columns where the ethanol is removed from the “stillage”. The ethanol is dehydrated to about 200 proof using a molecular sieve system and a denaturant such as gasoline is added to render the product undrinkable. With this last addition, the process is complete and the product is ready to ship to gasoline retailers or terminals. The remaining stillage then undergoes a different process to produce a highly nutritious livestock feed. The carbon dioxide released from the process is also utilized to carbonate beverages and to aid in the manufacturing of dry ice.

Doesn't sound too counterproductive to me.

That sounds real neat. What did they do with that co2 stuff again? I sure don't want that loose in our air, it might make holes in atmosphere or even make trees grow more.

They make menthanol out of coal, coal miners need work too. But big farmers contribute more to Washington than coal people and God knows they need more subsidies to keep those pledges rolling in.

Give me a break!!!

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: ethanol sucks
 

We were going to make a return to Silver Crown racing this year with our low budget team due to a new sponsor/partner but now I am unsure I want to go through all the headaches of re-doing the fuel system and buying a bigger radiator on top of all the other stuff that has to be done. Our engine builder has no experience setting up for this fuel. I don't like the idea of running hotter in those long races. Apparently teams will have to make a trip just to pick up fuel so you can get some before the first race to test. Methanol is everywhere.

USAC has a rule mandating a large tank and I doubt you'll see that change or that would kill the series for sure if this doesn't already.

We will definately skip the Hoosier 100 to see what happens before we spend a dime. I will go as spectator though and support it that way.

My question is....did the series really need this right now?

Re: ethanol sucks
 

The best advice I could give anone with a dirt champ car is contact someone in Indycar. They run it and deal with it all the time, and understand it's effect on parts.

It would have been nice for USAC, to put together a couple workshops in conjunction with some Indycar mechanics to discuss these issues.I know that ain't gonna happen though. Still it would be a nice gesture on their part if they did. They need to remember, with no competitors you have no USAC.