USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Will there be in 2012 any USAC races for Sprints on Asphalt?

Sue

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

From what i've been hearing, NO . Usac front office is lacking in leadership!!!

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

I remember the good old days when they ran Wincester 4 or 5 times a year and 2 of those were double headers with the Midgets. Salem was good also. And I can not forget The Thunder Series from IRP.

What happened to all the good racing?

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Originally Posted by usac99:
From what i've been hearing, NO . Usac front office is lacking in leadership!!!

So where will we go to see REAL pavement non-winged sprint car racing in the Midwest? Is the Litttle 500 all we have then?

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Pat Sullivan has an article about this subject in the latest sprint car & midget mag. I agree with everything he says about usac not having the pavement as a part of the national title for sprints. These other pavement groups seem to be doing well with wings even and paying less than usac did. What is funny to me up here in Michigan is that pavemnet sprints are probably going to be the weekly or main show at Spartan speedway. Springport speedway is also supposed to start running non-wing pavement 410 sprints in 2012.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

The reason the winged deal works, is generally speaking, those guys don't have a dirt car, and a pavement car to take care of (IE: Spend money on).

And I remember when there was guys that won the USAC title driving for two different people because one owned pavement cars, and the other owned dirt. There isn't any incentive to run a pavement car right now, or even in the last 5 years. Car counts have been terrible, and there isn't enough races to justify the expense.

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Would it be completely unreasonable to make rules that forced the teams to use the same car on pavement as dirt? If EVERYBODY had to run a car with torsion rear suspension, a jacobs ladder instead of a panhard bar, left side steering gear, engine & rear end centered in the chassis, 53" front axle max, etc etc nobody would be at a huge disadvantage and it would be like back in the day when you could run a dirt show on Saturday then just change shocks, springs, ride height, wheels and tires and run Winchester on Sunday afternoon. All the parts I just mentioned come off the car after/before every race for maintenance & cleaning anyway so it really wouldn't be lots of extra work... Sure the big budget teams would have a separate car that always had the pavement set up on it but it would still be a dirt car so somebody with less money and more elbow grease could still be on a level playing field....combine this with a reasonable tire rule that kept daddy warbucks from throwin 4 new ones on every time his car hit the track and I think pavement could flourish again.


Would something like this obsolete a few asphalt only cars out there? kind of...it couldn't make em any less valuable than they already are and there are still a handfull of pavement only series to keep those cars on the track with or without a wing...hell Troy Decaire proved last year that a converted obsolete dirt car can be competitive on pavement with the Must See series...



I have been racing something for 28 of my 39 years on this earth and been a huge fan/student of the sport since I was 1 year old. My forst USAC race I saw as a kid was on the pavement at i-70 speedway in Odessa, MO. I loved it. I have seen USAC on some other paved tracks and always enjoyed the show although I do prefer dirt. I totally think there is a place for pavement racing and I agree that the combination is what made USAC special for so many years.


I will end this ramble with a challenge.....Somebody out there with lots of knowledge please explain to me why a plan such as this won't work. And because "that's the way it is" is not a sufficient argument....I need to hear some cold hard technical or logistical reasons this wouldn't work.....and remember, it used to work just fine until people started building cars just for the asphalt.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

The short answer is that it DOES work. Or at the very least, it CAN work. This applies equally to Midgets, by the way. Now, the longer answer (there is ALWAYS a 'longer answer'), is that it would change some things, and if there is one thing that Sprint cars guys - and especially Midget guys - just don't do well with, it's change. Salem and Winchester were mentioned earlier in this thread. If sprinters went to a combo formula, those would be two tracks that would be off the menu for sure. Look at it this way, the reason that the pavement car evolved was so that we could run on larger and larger tracks. Sprinters at Salem, Midgets at Phoenix... man I love watching that stuff but if we went to a combo formula we'd be watching pavement shows on 1/3 mile tracks or smaller.

Don't forget about what has happened in the engine compartment over the last couple of decades - power is way up today compared to the combo car days. This also adds a lot to the equation.

I guess what I'm saying all boils down to this - If our choice is to say goodbye to pavement racing, or just to say goddbye to it on all of those big, beautiful and incredibly dangerous tracks, my vote is to keep pavement alive. One way to do that would be to bring back the combo car, and run short tracks. Its pretty clear that nobody has an appetite for slowing down the engines at the top levels (myself included), so this may be the best option we have.

:32:

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

It would be difficult to make it work because it is completely regressive. Every racer that I know, myself included, wants to go as fast as they can go, to be the fastest. Pavement cars are built for exactly that, to go as fast as they possibly can on a pavement track, with the necessary means to adjust them as conditions change. And since a pavement track inherently provides more grip than dirt and doesn't change nearly as drastically, the cars can go to the maximum dimensional limits allowed. There is nothing stopping anyone right now from doing what has been suggested, torsion rear suspension, a jacobs ladder instead of a panhard bar, left side steering gear, engine & rear end centered in the chassis, 53" front axle max, etc etc. Why doesn't anyone? Because the combination doesn't provide the fastest car possible, or at least someone hasn't consistently proven it can be faster. And when you get down to using one car for both, once you convert from dirt to pavement, you might as well have a second car for the amount of things that need changing, unless a ride-height, crank-height, set-back, and almost every single aspect of the car is mandated. And if that happens, you have a spec car which definitely isn't what sprint-car racing was founded on. The last thing racing needs is even more rules to stifle innovation.
Here's a question, there seem to be plenty of dirt-track latemodels and plenty of pavement latemodels. Those cars are completely different, and purpose built for their respective surfaces. So why do both of them seem to co-exist just fine? How many series/sanctioning bodies actually run both surfaces anymore, ASA? Anyone else?
Chad Atkinson

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

I haven't seen much pavement racing in the USA, but a USAC show I saw at Winchester about 7 or 8 years ago was one of the best shows I have seen. There was only about 15 cars, but a great feature.

In the UK about 15 years ago we had similar problems where pavement racing seemed to be dying off as drivers had to have a "Special" to compete. We changed the rules allowing a maximum inside weight, minimum ride height and a few other tweaks in the rules which made asphalt and dirt cars almost identical. It saved pavement racing over here and we now have a healthy turn out of cars on pavement.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

I have a few things for you to think about on this one. First and foremost I believe USAC wants to have pavement sprintcars! BUT, as a promoter would you have an event that attracted very few people? I was a paying customer along with the other 100 people at IRP this year. Racetracks have to want them, cars have to go race, people have to pay to watch! These three things are what makes the dirt sprint car races work- end of story.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Chad,
I get your argument, but you are overlooking the fact that even within the the argument you make, there are rules. Pavement cars would be faster if you could hang the engine out the side like a Super. They'd be faster with bigger displacement engines, faster with wings, God forbid.... You made the argument that you feel pavement racing is all about going as fast as you can. So by that logic I assume you are in favor of 500 cu. in. turbocharged cars with wings? Hows that bank account holding up?

Like I said originally, these things often come down to compromise. It seems to me that right now we are looking down the barrel at the end of non-wing Sprints on pavement (Midgets, too). If in fact this is the case, maybe it would be better to just say "goodbye Phoenix" and "hello Madera".

All we are really talking about is rules packages. Right now there is one set for pavement, one for dirt, and the two are mutually exclusive. Would it be possible to come up with a rules package that would make it at least POSSIBLE to run one car on both? Of course it would. And it is true that many teams would still run two cars. Thats not the point - the point is that it would be POSSIBLE to do it with one. This is what we did in the early years of the Focus program and we had a couple guys win USAC Championships running dirt and pavement, with one car. Talk about an accomplishment....

There is no question that it's do-able. There is also most likely no question that it won't happen but it does make for an interesting conversation.

All I want for Christmas is a pavement schedule in '12........
:32:

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Pavement sprint car racing has been a challenge in recent years to get cars and fans. But it can work. I went to a Must See race at Berlin back in June. The place was so packed they had to delay the race 45 minutes to get all the fans in the place. You couldn't find an empty seat anywhere and they had a strong car count. Far more fans and cars than any USAC race I have attended there. The reason? The track and sanctioning body promoted heavily the week of the race. The start money exceeded each teams tire bill. This can work and is working for a few sanctioning bodies with a little hard work and promotion.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Originally Posted by Dyno Don:
I remember the good old days when they ran Wincester 4 or 5 times a year and 2 of those were double headers with the Midgets. Salem was good also. And I can not forget The Thunder Series from IRP.

What happened to all the good racing?

You b*tched about it, So they quit...........................

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Rev,
Sent you a PM to talk more nuts and bolts, but I understand what you're saying and it does make for interesting conversation in the off-season. :) I'm with you, I would just like to see a pavement schedule in '12.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

USAC pavement sprint car racing is dead.Maybe not dead but it is in a coma.The only way to fix this problem is to lower the costs.(I know i'm beating a dead horse here.)Or strap wings on them and hope Must See would co sanction.Since the new thunder went the way of new coke does that mean no sprints at I(o)RP? Must see should try to run that place.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Are all of you too young to remember that through the 70s, a USAC owner could not combine points from two cars, so the serious contenders had to run the same car on both surfaces? Then they yielded to the wishes of a few rich owners and allowed two cars to carry the same number and combine the points. It's been downhill since then.

I wonder how it would change things, if say, 4 or 5 tracks in the state of Indiana alone, ran weekly Pavement shows.

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The Spartan season was swept by Tommy Fedewa in a full up Beast car. The car count was in the upper teens for most of the year, except when it swelled into the 20s occasionally.

I don't know what the purse was exactly but it was around half what the HOSS/AVSS purse paid to win. They ran a very hard Hoosier tire and guys were getting a handful of nights out of them.

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Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Originally Posted by Honest-Sam:
I wonder how it would change things, if say, 4 or 5 tracks in the state of Indiana alone, ran weekly Pavement shows.

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Sam,

You have the following pavement tracks in Indiana. Anderson, Angola, Baer Field, Illiana, LOR, New Paris, Plymouth, Salem and South Bend. If you could get 5 of them to agree to run 2 shows each you would have a starting point. This is how the CRA Late Model series got it start a number of years ago. Doubt it will happen, but there is always hope.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Last saw a dirt car run pavement back in the 90's when Mark Alderson wheeled an ill-handling Stapp owned and wrenched #4u at Winchester that still had Eldora dust on it from the night before! Something tells me that it could work though if everyone gave it a shot. I sure miss those Sunday afternoons at Winchester after Eldora. Then again they don't really run Eldora much anymore either. Not much is as good today as it once was.

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Originally Posted by Revolution Racing:
The short answer is that it DOES work. Or at the very least, it CAN work. This applies equally to Midgets, by the way. Now, the longer answer (there is ALWAYS a 'longer answer'), is that it would change some things, and if there is one thing that Sprint cars guys - and especially Midget guys - just don't do well with, it's change. Salem and Winchester were mentioned earlier in this thread. If sprinters went to a combo formula, those would be two tracks that would be off the menu for sure. Look at it this way, the reason that the pavement car evolved was so that we could run on larger and larger tracks. Sprinters at Salem, Midgets at Phoenix... man I love watching that stuff but if we went to a combo formula we'd be watching pavement shows on 1/3 mile tracks or smaller.

Don't forget about what has happened in the engine compartment over the last couple of decades - power is way up today compared to the combo car days. This also adds a lot to the equation.

I guess what I'm saying all boils down to this - If our choice is to say goodbye to pavement racing, or just to say goddbye to it on all of those big, beautiful and incredibly dangerous tracks, my vote is to keep pavement alive. One way to do that would be to bring back the combo car, and run short tracks. Its pretty clear that nobody has an appetite for slowing down the engines at the top levels (myself included), so this may be the best option we have.

:32:

Restrict the engines back to 1990's numbers then...was a "golden era" for those of us born b4 the 70s...

ARCA has rules for their stock cars to be very close to pavement cars I believe? For dirt AND road coarses...

Guess now we know why that last date was maybe cancelled this fall???

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ok guys, here is my two cents on this subject. When i first came to sprint cars i had just left a pavement stock car series (Baby Grands). at that time i wanted to be a nascar driver(woke up and smelled the coffe), now some may not admit it but if you were to walk up and down the pits at any usac show and ask the drivers what their all time goal would bee in their career they would all tell you INDY or NASCAR, but in the very next breth if you asked them what they thought about going pavement racing in a sprint, midget, or crown car MOST would cringe and tell you they hate pavement and didn't care to ever run a pavement race. my comment to that is, last time i checked there isnt a dirt race on the indy or nascar schedule nore is there ever going to be. this series was invinted to groom drivers for the big leagues. if we loose the pavement program how are our up and comming stars ever going to get some pavement time. the next step is to sell your open wheel stuff and buy a late model to get the experience needed (Chad Boat). now we have lost a valuable member of our racing family that may have put ten more butts in the bleachers. there are ways to control the costs of pavement racing, like tire rules, and no testing in the weeks before a race. My take on the situation as a dirt car owner and potential pavement car owner is that it is not worth the time effort and mony to purchase a pavement car and get a program going for eight-ten races. if i were goning to pull the trigger on purchasing a pavement car i am not so conserned about car counts, and purse pay out, but how many times am i going to get to race. i believe that if we traet this as a way to get more of our drivers on to the next level, all of the other things will fall into place, but there must be strict rules to keep the cost down, and it doesent mean anything if the cars slow down a little bit, as long as everyone slows down.
well there it is, so go easy on the tearing down of this comment. first time poster long time reader you guys just touched on a very important topic and thought i would chime in.
Thanks, Matt Goodnight

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Originally Posted by Dick Monahan:
Are all of you too young to remember that through the 70s, a USAC owner could not combine points from two cars, so the serious contenders had to run the same car on both surfaces? Then they yielded to the wishes of a few rich owners and allowed two cars to carry the same number and combine the points. It's been downhill since then.

Mr. Monahan has it right. I was just old enought to witness the last of the combo car era as a fan. Anybody who says that a combo car CAN'T work is either too young or too close minded to remember that it already HAS worked. And as I said, we also made it work (for a while) again in the early 2000's with the FFMS.

There is NO QUESTION that a combo car can work. The question is; do we implement this idea as a way to revitalize the pavement? Or, is there a better way? Or, do we just bury it.

One final thought about returning to short tracks. 600 people in the stands at IRP (or whatever the hell you all call it this week) is a recipe for failure. There are many short tracks that, while not thrilled with 600 people, could probably at least try to build on that.

OK I'm done. :47:

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

Originally Posted by short track scott:
The Spartan season was swept by Tommy Fedewa in a full up Beast car. The car count was in the upper teens for most of the year, except when it swelled into the 20s occasionally.

I don't know what the purse was exactly but it was around half what the HOSS/AVSS purse paid to win. They ran a very hard Hoosier tire and guys were getting a handful of nights out of them.

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Here is the payout for Spartan. Yes, not a lot on top but they have spread it out through the field. Have heard several more guys are planning on running this series in 2012 as Springport is also going to run pavement sprint occationaly also.
1. 750
2. 550
3. 400
4. 350
5. 325
6. 300
7. 275
8. 250

Remainder of field 250
Heats - 20, 15, 10, 10

Re: USAC SPRINTS FOR 2012 - Yes or No
 

in 1978 we had greg leffler drive for us in usac. of course we had a leffler built car with one of the first titanium rod built motors at the time. this car was a combo car. we had one win a sandusky and ran ok in some of the dirt races. we would have won at the indy fairgrounds but that titanium rod broke. let's face it greg was a pavement guy. we were one of about 10-12 guys that ran combo cars back then. i really don't think granny would have had another car just b/c she was just old school. lol just wish it was now as it was then minus the roasters...nothing against them.

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Times in USAC reminiscent of the poor economy of the early '80's. 1981-1984, there was no pavement racing other than the Speedrome. Even if you don't love the high banks like I do, you have to see the downside. Other than Ken Schrader, who else climbed the ladder during these years? USAC needs the pavement to provide opportunities for talented young drivers.

I have a question about the subject of the combo car that comes up every so often: Would we be using ANY make or model of dirt sprint car that could be raced anywhere, or, would we be using a new design? If it's the latter, I wonder how some of the 'dirt only' owners would feel if they were told that they would have to buy a new, special purpose combo car that would be needed to run USAC dirt races? I don't mean the perennial point contenders like TSR or HAR. I'm talking about guys that towed to Florida last Feb. or Gas City guys etc., such as Byram, Riggs, Stockon, Christian, Short, Fox, Gulick, Edison, Fitzpatrick(I know, he's parked), Cook, Baldwin, Tapy, Goodnight, Gorby, Robbins, Gross, Weber, Olson, Roberts/Tate, Westfall, Walker, Puterbaugh, Nigg, Shuttleworth, Burdette, Welpott, Spencer, Hupp, Ted Hines, Simon, Studley, Briscoe, Stines, Holtsclaw, Beauchamp, Cramer, Sciscoe, Hughes, Grant, Bacon, Thomas, Clayton, Wissmiller, and so on. I would imaging that forcing a new car on them would bring about the same problem that we currently have with pavement. And as a side note, would probably end any Eastern or Western swings. I guess I'm just looking for clear definition of combo car. I kinda feel like it means different things to different people is all. I also have questions/concerns about putting a full fledged, race ready dirt sprint car on the pavement at places like Winchester, Salem, or even Anderson. But that's a different topic....

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