weight question
 

Just how much weight can I SAFELY bolt on to a 1000cc mini sprint and where, without altering the works of the chassis? My driver weighs 107 lbs. and we need to add 155 lbs. to race in certain club.
help!!

Re: weight question
 

155 lbs????? WOW good luck being safe with that one! ive always thought its pretty dumb to have a car and driver combined weight. i understand about a car weight minimum to keep costs down. a TQ club went to combined weight this year and alot of guys are still wondering what the point of it was. if a heavier driver is worried that a lighter one will be faster then go on a diet and exercise, its not rocket science..keep everything simple and safe..

Re: weight question
 

Nick, you got it all wrong, buddy, there needs to be a minimum weight for a driver, 107lb driver, 550lb car, winner declared. I'd put the driver on corn and spuds, till he made up the difference, or pick something else to race! Maybe Jockey, rather than driver! Bob!:3:

Re: weight question
 

making a racecar lighter costs more money and gets rather expensive so a weight rule is created for car,,,, making a driver lighter is free. just takes will power and determination :) i really would not want to be out on the track with a mini sprint that had 150 lbs of lead bolted on..

Re: weight question
 

Nick, I wouldn't either, but there has to be some "equalizer", and weight has it, our TQ weight this year was supposed to be 850lbs, car and driver, that was about 30lbs below the average of the cars that raced the previous season, but, someone got "convinced" and the weight ended up being 800lbs, or about the weight it had always been. Everything that races, anything that I know of, has a weight rule, to try to level the playing field, it's not just us, it's everything, we just don't have 25 weight classes, like go-karts do. Bob!:)

Re: weight question
 

NICK, Sounds like a real fly weight speaking. Maybe you could do a book about race drivers diets and how to stay slim and trim. DNA only makes for better race drivers not lighter ones. The 410 sprints worry about weight and spend tons of money to be light and run for much larger purses than you do in 3/4 midgets. Sounds like you want nothing but skinny drivers around you.

Racing to some people is a sport, we can't all be pros and follow a diet to be competive as you must do. We did a little math the other day and 5HP equates to 25 lbs advantage for cars in the mini sprint size.

A real racer would want a level playing field for every one and beat the other guy because of his ability to drive a racecar and not because he was 30 lbs lighter.

Weight is the great equilizer.

When we started out racing we weighd 90 lbs.
A 1 inch lead plate placed right under the drivers butt in a 12" seat should be a little over 120 lbs.
We also had a 2" muffler pipe clamped to the left frame rail with a 3/4 pipe plug welded in it and filled it with lead shot for fine tuning.

There is a good chance if you driver is 107 now he will probably be 120 by spring time.

If you race MMSA look me up I'll be the old guy with the black 37 car.

DAD

Re: weight question
 

Got to work this morning and did some figuring. You must be trying to race with ILLSA on alchol or you bought the wrong type of car. To race in Indiana and have to add that much weight your car would weigh about 670 lbs. THAT is a very light upright.

ILLSA is trying to get rid of alky cars and the best way to do this is make them too heavy to race. If you are wanting to run with them buy an old throttle body off of EBAY, Ask them where they are going to get their dyno jets tuned spend $200.00 for throttle body another $500.00 or so for dyno time and go and have fun racing with them.
YOU SHOULD NOW GET BY WITH ABOUT 70 LBS OF BALLAST WEIGHT.:8:


Race Directors should keep in mind that some day a "Lawyer" could probaby be asking them, is Pump Gasoline a safer race fuel than Methanol and they are going to have to come up with a response.:6:

Re: weight question
 

Sounds like the car you have, has had some light weight part added, which, cost about as much as adding weight, maybe more. A good place to start, is compare your wheels and hubs, to some others, there is a lot of weight to be looked at there, and it's something that can be used later, to add the weight back in. I'd say you can pick up an easy 50lbs, just by going to the heavier wheels and hubs, beadlocks all the way around, heavier, solid hubs will add weight. Nerf bars, remove them, and ck the wall thickness, and if they're light, make new ones, out of heavier wall tube, the 7/8in buffed stainless comes in several wall thicnesses, thats an easy way to add it, and you need them anyway. You can buy, 2 pc, aluminum clamps, made just for adding ballast, and they are drilled and tapped for large diameter bolts, I would put them low in the car, and on the cross tubes, that still allows the chassis to flex, where it normally would. If the car doesn't already have a bladder tank, and you can afford one, that's another 20-25 lbs added, you could fill both lower frame rails with lead shot, which can be purchased in 25lb bags, at most gun stores, and you should be able to get a bag in each one, so that's 50lbs added. You can buy sheet lead, and secure it too you floor pans, and you don't need it in 1in thickness, you could put a little in the seat, just to be able to add or take away, where you can get to it easy, but don't get carried away, too much there will drastically effect the roll center, and make a very ill handling car out of it. Ck the bolts, all of them, and if they've been drilled, or are Titanium, replace them with std grade 8 stuff. Now, it's probably over weight. I wouldn't bolt any weight on the length of the frame rails, keep it all on the cross tubes, and keep it as close to the tube as you can, and not more than 20-25lbs either, keeps it from wanting to tear itself off. You can do it, I'd start with wheels, that's the biggest bang at once. If your interested, you can call AED in Indy, and get their catalog of material they stock, and they have it broken down by wt by ft, in fact, I think all that stuff they have available on the net, at www.aedmotorsports.com, and they may have an ad on IOW. Good luck! Bob!:)

---------- Post added at 9:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 9:41 AM ----------

DAD, 675 is what my TQ weighs, with all that "heavy" rear quickchange, and driveshaft stuff, and it sure isn't built light, I know, I built it, and several others, and all the tube is spec, or heavier, right now, our weight rule is 800lbs, car and driver, it was supposed to be 850lbs, car and driver, but I think there was some "negotiating" went on, after the "advisors" meeting, even the light guys, that were going to have to add weight, were unhappy, they wanted it brought up, so at least adding 50 lbs to the light guys, was taking 50lbs off the heavy guys, keeps em coming back. Bob!:)

Re: weight question
 

That is why you guys are 3/4 midget's we use midget frames, midget axils, midget tail tanks etc. 725 lbs is a light mini. We use a 2" rear axil with a sprocket and sprocket carrier and a 15 lb chain it probably aint a whole lot lighter than the smaller TQ rear ends.

Can you imagine one your car with one of our motors we would have to fill Nick's pockets up with lead shot just to keep the darned thing on the ground. :6::8::14:

Re: weight question
 

DAD, there isn't that much more tube in a mini, as there is in a TQ, or midget for that matter, and if you'll go to AED's website, and look at the wt of the tube involved, I doubt if there's 25lbs difference in the chassis wt. We also use full midget frt axles, hubs, spindles, brakes, wheels, plus we use a full midget rear axle, with full bird cages, caliper and disc, hubs, spacers and wheels, non-power, full midget steering gear, same as you, batterys, fuel and oil tanks, we're dry sump, remember, seats all the same, our wheel base and tread are just a bit shorter, the engine wt is probably close, but we don't have a gearbox full of gears,and clutch onboard, but that isn't the point, if I, or anyone else, that has a TQ, wanted a mini, that's what we would have, but that isn't the case, just like you, we buy what we want, not what someone else thinks we should, there is hardly a doubt, if I could afford it, I'd have a Sprint car, a real one, but I can't, and I don't, I race what I can afford, and believe it or not, I can actually make money doing it, otherwise, I'd have to park it, and as far as putting a 1000cc engine in one, I think it'd be a blast, but my God man, I'm having more fun now, than I can stand, and still keep my clothes on! I have a complete machine shop, so I don't have to pay someone else to do much of anything, I have to buy tires, and fuel and oil, and fuel for my diesel, and I can do that, and still make a little profit, but don't run out and spend it, you'll need it to get back to a track, to make just that little bit more, I will guarantee you, NO ONE RACES any cheaper than I do, and it's not because I'm cheap, it's because I don't have the money to spend on foolish stuff, I need something, I make it. I been keepin up with kyron, we do alot of talking, and kidding each other, we raced each other for 20 some years. Take care. Bob!:)

Re: weight question
 

I'm certainly not the lightest. There are quite a few that are lighter than me. I"m just a normal average healthy guy. Bob, I usually agree with you on most things but we will have to agree to disagree on this :) This year was the first year there was a combination car and driver weight, it worked all them other years and there have been big guy champions. In the minisprints,i guess it will take a weight coming off and causing a disaster before they reconsider, i doubt there are many younger kids that parents want to have to bolt on 150 lbs just to race. Three years ago, they weighed all the TQ's and the one I was driving weighed in as the absolute heaviest and had a steel rear axle and an Economy motor and we still ran top 3 every race. It must have been those genes he was talking about because it sure wasn't from being light. This year we finished second 6 times to the same guy that was 30 lbs lighter, but we dont make up excuses like weight as to why we get beat. He would have won even if he was 30 lbs heavier. I'm not going to beat this thread down but hope the guy has good luck bolting on 150 lbs to a minisprint. The top two winning drivers in TQ's this year are over 100 lbs different, amazing how the one could be one of the winningest drivers being at a 20-30 horsepower disadvantage due to his weight, according to your calculations. I'm done here :)

Re: weight question
 

I agree with you to a certain extent, Nick, this was the first year for a combined wt, however, in the past, almost everyone's car weighed over the minimum, and most of the drivers were as you say, of normal weight, that's why we went to a car, and driver weight, it's a universal way, of making the playing field a little bit more even, yes, we had guys with total weights of under 800 lbs, and we also had guys with weights over 950lbs, but their cars weighed almost the same, so you need a balance somewhere, and as was done, all the cars and drivers were weighed, and the average taken, and it came out at 883, so the decision was made to make it 850, give a little, take a little. Weight may not make that much difference, but it's at least a standard, that everyone must meet, same with engine rules, or like being pregnant, you can't be just a little bit, you either are, or not. Having a minimum wt, at least makes one factor the same, how much money one wants to spend, to get that added Hp, you can't control, at least in practice, how one drives a car, how well, or how poorly, how they take care of the equipment, and much help they have, how close they work together, how much of a Team they have, isn't something that you can even out, but you can make everyone follow the same rules on engine displacement, and the weight of the total package, then it's up to luck, and the driver, and how well the car is prepared, and several of the player's have this option, I don't, my driver is 70 miles away, at minimum, and usually farther than that, by at least a few States, or even a couple of countrys, but we see each other just before practice, and do what we can, and I think for what we have, we do pretty darned well. See ya this Spring, maybe, if someone gets off their hands, and tells us what the new year will bring, we can't be left til a few weeks before the first race, and have anything ready, they should be letting us know now, or at least by the middle of December, really, it should have all been done by banquet time, so everyone starts from the green flag, we can't be working on anything yet, because we haven't been informed of anything that may or may not change, I'm not big on planning, but when it's about racing, people need some lead time, to be able to put things together, you can't just pick up a phone, and have parts the next day, in most cases, and in this economy, it takes a lot of shopping, to get what you need, at a price you can afford. As I've said before, if you ask me a question, you'll get an answer, if it ain't what you want to hear, you got how I felt, no unanswered questions. Bob!:)

Re: weight question
 

Thanks guys!! I got some good info and sure needed it. wasn't trying to ruffle feathers just need some honest suggestions. Didn't get wrong car.... just a Good car! We will do our best and give it a try. If we cant make weight, then we cant make weight. Not going to mess up a good car by try to bolt on the kitchen sink to race.
But again, thanks for all the input, we appreciate it!!!!!

Re: weight question
 

Yes, sounds like the car is about an average weight, for a mini, but you'll have to be very creative as to how you add the weight, I think you can even get lead in thick hollow tubes, which would come in handy, or make a mold, and pour your own, I'd use new stuff, plumbing shops, and some hardware stores still carry it, used stuff may be out of battery's, or used as a shield for something you don't want to be around, course if your well heeled enough, you could use tungsten, it's about half again heavier than lead, so it would take less room, I don't know how expensive it is, but it might be cheaper in the long run, they tell me, guys that shoot skeet, that it's getting pretty high, one guy is getting 6 bucks on Ebay, just for the empty bags. Good luck, and enjoy! Ruffled feathers are just a part of it. Bob:)

Re: weight question
 

BOB a bare midget or mini sprint chassis weighs 145 to 150 lbs with all tabs and braces in place. My front axil is 45" long X .120" thick. I can't afford a Ti frame. We race for the "FUN OF IT". I would think that anybody with a lick of sense should say the same thing. My race car is also "BIG BONED" but it is the best one for us. I could get rid of 15 to 20 lbs by going with lighter bottom rail and lighter braces but my kid is driving the thing. He could loose 30 lbs. but that ain't as easy as skinny people think it is: and we are still racing for fun. As far as that old KYRON he would still be with you all if you would have let him keep his old Konigs and chains drives. As a matter of fact it would be nice for you guys would take up a collection to give us for keeping him out of your hair.

Back in the day of the Crosley and Honda good engines were a bit harder to find. Today we get on EBAY snd buy a motor for much less money than you can even freshen up your old motor. My motor with all the gears weighs about 125 lbs. Valve covers engine covers and any thing that bolts on to the motor is made of magnesium. The valves are Ti right from the factory. My engine with it tranny and clutch is lighter than an old cut down 836.

I understand you think out of the box but if you looked around you could find that these engines have improved 200% sinse the late 90's. Maybe the old ways of doing things is getting out dated. Now the mini sprinters or lightning sprint people are wanting to go to quickchange rear ends. What will they think of next. Maybe some day soon we can call ourselves 7/8 midgets.

DAD

---------- Post added at 2:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 2:16 PM ----------

Just a couple of old guys letting go with their feeling's. I can guarantee you will have fun racing mini sprints, I have for almost 20 years or so.
(couldn't afford TQ's) and really did not see a very level playing field racing with them at the time.

We have been all over the country with these things and have run across very few people we did not really enjoy racing with. Get that thing up to weight and get out there and have fun because you are not going to get rich doing it. If you get to Indiana look me up.:32::44:

Re: weight question
 

DAD, let me run this by ya one more time, I DON'T run a Honda, haven't for 6 yrs or so, I been running a YZF600R Yamaha, not the R6, it doesn't have enought stroke, to get these things off the turns with the old Honda's. I buy them in pieces off Ebay, a head here, a case there, a crank somewhere else, a set of rods, a set of pistons, a cylinder, and off I go, about 3-400 bucks, and some machine time, and I got a race engine, that little motor has made me a lot of money, and it took at least 30lbs off the front end of the car. I run a 45" X 1 1/2" .120 wall axle, midget spindles and hubs, all the good stuff, plus a full midget Winters rear end, and drive shaft and torque tube, my chassis is all 1 1/4" X .095 CM 4130, the diag bracing is either 3/4 or 7/8, depending on where it is, and the chassis with tabs and pans weighs about 110lbs. That size tube, weighs 1.045 lbs per ft, and there is about 15 more ft of tube in a midget, or less, so we're about on the same page there. My 600R also has Titainium valves in it from the factory, and the rods are good for way more R's than we need, pistons are forged, from the factory, they are still in production, you can walk into any Yamaha shop across the country, and ride one out. The old Honda's are still very plentyfull, you still see a lot of "donor's" on the road every summer, but it just costs so much for the after market rods, cams, pistons and stuff that you have to have, to keep them going. We have a few guys, getting away from the Honda, and most are having good luck, the Triumph Daytona, the modern version, is a heck of a motor, but being a 3 cyl, it's a bit awkward to wrap your mind around, but it's good, and it has a long stroke, and good upper end also, the 600 Suzuki doesn't perform that well, or the 600 Kaw, or Honda 600's, no stroke=no torque, but my 600R performs as well on the small tracks, as it does the big ones, so I've got at least 8 of them, some just bought parts, I think I have 3 complete, and don't have the price of a set of rods for a Honda in all of them. I had the last TQ that Ron ran, with the Konig in it, in fact, I still have the motor plate, that it was mounted to, I bought the car off Dwenger, after they put a Honda in it, and Ron still was spanking their butts. They never ever considered, it might be the driver, not the Konig!! Have a good day! Bob!:)

Re: weight question
 

BOB CLICK ON THAT aed and see what you get.

Re: weight question
 

Sorry about that, it's www.aedmotorsports.com, just a little error! Bob!:5:

Re: weight question
 

Almost gave me a heart attack! :18::10:

Ron's boys are the same way.

I have been the torque thing for a long time with r6's. On a track like Madison we would run about 15.5 to 1. If you get enough rpm's and keep her up on the power band you can do it without torque. Can you get 15.5 with your quick change. We ran 13.9 at Madison with the 1000cc car and were too high. The big problem with TQ's I see is getting the gear low enough to get these new engines over the hump. Do they allow reduction boxes ahead of the axil?

The r6 was one hell of a jump over your present motor. We were getting 120 hp + out of them (just need a hot box) at the last on Gasoline. They go for about $1000.00 on Ebay amd I am still running my 1999 motor once or twice a year, never had the head off still pumps 4-6%. We have been racing this motor since 2001. Change the oil and race the darned things I don't like to work as much as you.

I would like to see your creation some day maybe you could make one of Bill's TQ mini sprint combo races.

I'm trying to remember did we answer the question about adding weight to a mini sprint?

Re: weight question
 

Bob,

This has been posted on the home page of the MTQRL website since before the banquet:

The MTQRL Rule Book is currently under review to clarify any ambiguous rules that may be present. There will be no rule changes for the 2012 season.

Greg is currently working on the schedule and as soon as it's finalized it will be posted. It is still very early to have the schedule released. There is no way that a schedule could have been released at the banquet. Very few organizations and/or tracks release their schedule before the first of the year.

As soon as we have any information we will post it.

Sandy

Re: weight question
 

Sandy, I read the post about the rules, a good while ago, and I understand the schedule not being able to do much, til the tracks have their meetings, I, and a lot of others, were curious about the weight rule, it was supposed to be moved up this year, at least that's what was posted before last season started, that and the fact little is being communicated, makes it hard for the owners to make any moves, if need be. Thanks! Bob

Re: weight question
 

Wow am I happy I just took the time to read this thread.....and I am extra happy that I got to read Nicks advice in particular..

I am a 39 year old male, 6ft 2in tall, wide shoulders, big feet, big hands, and I weigh 200ish pounds...having read the advice mentioned above I now know that with a little diet and exercise that I can easily get my own weight down to that of a 14 year old, 95 pound girl who's barely 5 foot tall and wears shoes and clothes found in the Jr or Childrens section at JC Penny..

Had I known this could be accomplised so easily I would have done it a long long time ago because the series I primarily race with has no weight rule at all...

Any weight rule that doesn't include the driver defeats the purpose of having a weight rule from a competition aspect...Period..

A reasonable car weight rule can for sure have safety benefits, but these ridiculously high weight rules that some groups have in place, especially the ones that punish alcohol cars so severely, are the exact opposite of helping safety... excessive ballast tends to fall off on the track or become a projectile in a crash, filling a 25 gallon tank full of fuel when you only use 5 gallons creates 5 times the potential power of a fire, and if my car is stalled on the track or sitting upside down I am quite sure the 900 pound car that hits me is going to hurt much less than the 1050 pound car that hits me.

Re: weight question
 

Darnall, I'm sure you have already surmised, the 850lbs wasn't just a number out of a hat, it was arrived at, after weighing almost all the cars, and almost all the drivers, and those of us that actually build cars, know within a few pounds, what they should weigh, knowing the regulations on tube sizes and etc, and the weight of most of the components, so a car that should weigh in the neighborhood of 675-700, give or take a little, and a "normal" size driver, shouldn't have to add but a few pounds of ballast, now we only have maybe 6 or 8 that will have to add any weight, but 85% will still be over weight, some as much as 100lbs, but unlike go-karts, that have a "class" for almost every weight kart and driver, this is where we stand, as do a lot of other racing entities, but like you say, some parity has to be arrived at, and a lot of us feel like the number that it was supposed to be, meets that requirment, yes, if your under, you really feel penalized, but if your way over, you man up, and take your "penalty". Just sayin! Bob!:)

Re: weight question
 

what you say about how the club got together and weighed all the cars/drivers and tried to come up with a good middle ground number is, in my opinion, the best possible way to come up with a fair weight rule. the way I see it, there should be an equal number of guys who race heavy as there are guy who have to add weight. If they came up with a good number and then changed it that drastically it seems there really wasn't any reason to have gone thru the effort they did in the first place.

I absolutely have no dog in this fight. I only felt like I needed to chime in after reading the part about how any driver that is heavier has the ability to diet and exercise and that will even out their disadvantage. While that argument does have some merit, there is no way a person can overcome their DNA and personal framework and come out on equal footing as somebody as small and tiny as some drivers are naturally.

Re: weight question
 

being one of the biggest guys that races a midget, driver weight rules have always been something i was passionate about. i have written on lot here and on other forums about it. Way back in the MARA days i wrote up a proposition to be presented to the board about doing an "either or" weight rule. it was a 900lb midget or a 1080 car/driver combo weight. either one would be legal. it wasn't perfect from a competition standpoint since the 120lb driver would still have an advantage, but it did allow the big guys to lighten the car up if they chose to. it would be an easy fix, since anyone with a 900lb midget, which was the rule at the time, would still be legal with no changes. it fell on deaf ears unfortunately and MARA is long gone now, but the rules transferred on to POWRI and still remain today without driver weights included. Being about a 250lb driver, it still irks me that i have to think about how much extra fuel i need in the tank at the race with to make weight.

Re: weight question
 

I understand completely, back in the day, we had an "ambiguois" weight of 500lbs, car only, it took years, and tears, to get it "raised" to 550lbs, still "almost" impossible, but an achievement nonthless, can you hear the screaming, and yelling, if it were to be 700, or 750, car only? Talk about a crime, if it were to happen, the suicide rate would go out of site, just kidding, of course, but, the fact remains, there still needs to be parity in the weight of the car, and driver, if necessary, then most of the doubt would be gone, and as usually happens, the light guy don't always win, but at least there would be parity, that's all we ask, and there is always that possibility, that with the added weight, the super lite guy, might really come to the front, he now has some weight he can transfer, to something other than the scales!! Bob!:)