How to tune with a Power Commander
 

I recently purchased a Guhl methanol system for my 2006 R1 and I am clueless on how to use the power commander to tune the engine. The unit has the map that the old user was using (2006 R1) which is the same engine I am running. Should I just assume the map will be correct? My uneducated thought is that I should still have the engine dyno tested but I am not sure how to adjust the unit at the dyno. The only dyno I know of anywhere close to me is in Indianapolis and it is not someone who "specializes" in mini sprints so I would like to have some clue as to how to adjust what needs to be adjusted with the unit. I don't really want to have to drive to the other 2 dyno sites I know of that do specialize in mini's (Stewart Dyno and Guhl) which are 6-8 hours away to get this done. Any help enlightening the ignorant on this would be very much appreciated.

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

if everything is the same and same fuel then you should be close. Im not saying that it will be right though. I cant remember how to tune the power commandor but your best bet if you have the time and money would be to go to guhl himself and let him tune it. he is one of the best around at tuning these cars. If you cant do that then give him a call he should be able to give you a pretty good map just by telling him whats done to your car. I would shy away from doing it yourself if you have never done it before.

Ill see if I can find his number, but there is a dyno in northern indiana that does all the tuning for you. They mainly do the 600 micro sprints, but don't see why they couldn't do a full mini sprint.

His name is Gary Miller.
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Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Eric Shively has a new dyno, he is located outside of Flora IN, between Kokomo and Lafayette.

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

You might want to ck out www.cozzolinoMotorsports.com, they have helped a lot of the TQ guys this year. Bob!:)

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

I'd second thebus the Millers are very good with the injection and troubleshooting problems. I'm not 100% sure if they could hook the dyno up to a car with out the 1.75 dia axle that is common on the micro's (sidwinders).??

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

To be safe call Guhl. I understand he has a power comander map already loaded in his PC.

However that is only part of the equation. You also need a starting point for fuel press.

We do a lot of our fine tuning with fp only. Remember Too much fp is much better than too little. It will run great on low pres but it wont take but a lap or two to melt it down. Too much and you will have a blubber but that dont hurt too much.

We are down in New Albany. We have an old clayton dyno we tune with seems to do a pretty good job. It aint very fancy but we do run pretty good using it. A lot of the dyno work is pure BULL, and we can't afford to pay for bull right now.

If we can help PM me.

DAD

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Have 2010 R-1 with Power Commander. Without going to alcohol, is there someone that can set up ( re-jet) and dyno? In general tune motor, get to run cooler and map. New at winged mini, raced ~ 6 times late last year and can see issues with overheating in midsummer. Located in Cincinnati. Thanks Tim

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Do not waste your monies and time. Go to Don Guhl. He knows the engine and the power command tuning and will get the best performance.

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Originally Posted by George Pollock:
Do not waste your monies and time. Go to Don Guhl. He knows the engine and the power command tuning and will get the best performance.

Hello, George, long time, no see! Guess we're both still able to sit up and take nourishment, which in itself, is no small wonder! Just had a question for ya, is the electronic FI that much better, than say a Hilborn, or Kinsler, or Engler? Reason I asked, I've been running a 600 Yamaha, since 05, and in the interests of keeping costs down, I took all the parts needed, to put an old Honda, in a TQ, and did what was necessary to allow them to be used on modern engines, I took my Hilborn, which was the modular unit, and reworked the spacer bars and things, and put it on the 600, same with the oil pump/fuel injection pump drive, which also included the Dyna S Ignition, and did away with all the electronic controls, so almost anyone with a Honda, could make the conversion, with my "kit" we'll say, it was inexpensive, and the technology was at least in this decade, and even being competative, with a small, lighter engine, that cost little to build, didn't get much response, maybe it's "cool" to be able to "tune" an engine with a computer, but under the conditions we're usually under, I felt like it was more effective, to work with something most people were already at least somewhat aquainted, and I still feel that way, is it that they are "afraid" of the mechanical FI, because they don't understand it, or do they feel more comfortable with electronic? Good hearing/seeing your name again, I did have an unusual meeting with a guy the other night, small world, anyway, we were at a Christmas party, from Church, and the subject of Mayo Clinic came up, and the fellow across the table from me, spoke up, and said he'd been there a few times, said he'd flown a kid up there several years back, that had been injured in a go-kart race, and I said "Brad Tobias", and he got the strangest look on his face, and he said, "yes, how'd you know that", well, you know here the story went from there, anyway, he had worked for an outfit called "Angel Wings" or something like that, that flew people, who couldn't otherwise afford it, to places that they could get the attention they needed, here at Christmas time, that was good to hear. Anyway, thanks for listening, and let me know your opinion on the FI deal. Bob!

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

I wish there was a readily available mechanical injection option for these engines. If I had my way there wouldn't be ANYTHING electrical on them except for the ignition. I get so frustrated trying to chase down electrical demons and dealing with EFI, but I am that way with my street cars too. I got spoiled when I was younger learning how to turn a wrench on muscle cars and classic "Vettes with my uncles that had about 3 wires going to the engine.
Good lord that rant makes me sound\feel old..

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Dude, there is a "readily" available mechanical injection unit for these engines, I see used ones everyday on Ebay, for usually under $300.00, I've passed on at least a dozen in the past 3 months, true, there is a bit of engineering to be done to mount a pump, but that's simple, I've done several myself, as well as my own, it's even simpler on others, because I have to drive a dry sump pump, and a water pump, as well as the ignition, on a typical twin cam motor, you can drive off one cam, or both, couldn't ask for anything any easier. Bob

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Old dogs do have problems learning new tricks. You might find a small injector body on Ebay, but in the 1000cc motors we use like a 45-48 mm throttle plate, they are a little harder to find. if you don't have any money.

The new electronics are almost fool-prof kinda of like your computer, if it messes up unplug it plug it back in and it is usually fixed.

To tune with electronics we use an old clayton dyno to load the car down. We used to use a road with a hill in front of our house but the Sheriff said he would rather we did not do that.

It is a good idea to have an air fuel meter to ck your exhaust gasses.
You set there at the computer have a helper bring the car up to the speed you want to adjust, read the meter go to the cell you are working on and type in a number larger or smaller than the number you are adjusting, check it and if the number is right the ex gas will show it and you go to the next cell. Sounds complicated but really simpler than sitting here trying to type and spell these words. When you are done about 30 to 45 min. The injector is spot on for every rpm and load you will see at the race track. We adjust for every 1000 rpm some anal type do it for every 500 or even 250 rpm's. with mechanical you have low speed mid range and high speed that you change. When the sun goes down you change pills. We have a little sensor that sniffs the air pres. and changes the settings as required. we run good at sea level in the sun or a 3000 feet in the snow.

It aint rocket science.:6:

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

DAD, I'm currently running 45mm on my 600R, modular, bought off ebay back in either 04 or 05, with 2 pumps, all the bypasses, and a Kinser filter for $325.00, works great, not hard to tune at all, not all that particular to weather conditions, I usually run one pill, in the Spring, then in the heat of the summer, one different one, then in the fall, back to the spring one. I use a Kinsler Hi-speed, and don't use an "s", or idle bypass, just richen or lean the low end, off the barrel valve, don't get any easier than that! Bob

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Urg, this being new to the mini sprint world can be frustrating. I didn't think mechanical injection for an R1 was even possible. Learn something new every day, which is good because I apparently still have mountains to learn about these cars. There are times I really miss my old rigid chassis QM or old dirt karts these days. Guess I shouldn't complain much. I have a wealth of info to draw from on the boards and with some of the folks I met this year, and I am back in a race car so life can't be all bad.

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
Dude, there is a "readily" available mechanical injection unit for these engines, I see used ones everyday on Ebay, for usually under $300.00, I've passed on at least a dozen in the past 3 months, true, there is a bit of engineering to be done to mount a pump, but that's simple, I've done several myself, as well as my own, it's even simpler on others, because I have to drive a dry sump pump, and a water pump, as well as the ignition, on a typical twin cam motor, you can drive off one cam, or both, couldn't ask for anything any easier. Bob

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

I let one slide the other day, a Kinsler, bodies, barrel valve and bypasses, for a 1000, went for under 300 clams, I didn't need anymore, one on and one spare should be enough, don't that make you're day?

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

Since 2000 I have been involved with developing the Esslinger 161 cubic inch national midget motors. Using mechanical fuel injection we are achieving about 385+ HP.

5 years ago I became involved with the EFI used on 1000cc bike engines and learned a lot on the internet about tuning the 32 bit ECU used on Suzuki and Kawasaki motors.

I have a bone stock 2010 GSXR 1000 on pump gas at 191 HP. On alcohol it is 197 HP, using all stock components. This engine is only 61 cubic inches and is directly tunable from my lap top. Yamaha and Honda engines use an ECU that is very difficult to tune and require a Power Commander to trick the ECU for tuning the fuel.
I originally wanted to help low budget mini sprint racers convert and tune engines but both midwest mini sprint organizations started dicussing rule changes requiring box stock ECU. I quickly lost interest in the mini sprints and those that wish racing would be equal for everyone even those that are not technical.
Well we live in a technical world and I appologize for those who are intimidated by technology. Maybe they should just have fun and not worry about every other racer.
EFI injection is so supperior to the mechanical slobber systems. EFI produces 3.25 HP per cubic inch displacement. Mechanical produces 2.4 HP per cubic inch displacement.
Engine ECU's can be tuned to balance injectors, throttle position syncronization, ignition timing, rev limits, ram air trims, ambient air temp. and pressure adjustments, all from available free information available on the internet.
If USAC would allow the national midget engines to use EFI it would reduce engine costs $5-6,000. Most engine problems (costly failures) are tuning errors experienced with mechanical fuel systems. MDSI use to list injector and ECU's available with ignition controls for almost any engine.
I like the EFI and the results from lap top tuning. Would not consider mechanical unless regulated to do so.
My thoughts on EFI.

Re: How to tune with a Power Commander
 

AMEN GEORGE!

I'm 65 years old. I can remember when all I wanted was a Dick Tracy wrist watch. I finally got one for Christmas one year but it had a darned wire sticking out of it and was conected to to another one about 20 feet away. I had to wisper so my buddy could hold it up to his ear and here me. It was a lot simpler just to yell at him. I got one now I carry it in my shirt pocket and I can talk to anyone any where now or even send them video it's a lot better than old Dick ever had.

I can remember back in the late 50's my dad got a Hilborn fuel injector for an old flat head Ford he raced in the modified's back in the day. It was the utlimate speed secret and it did light a fire under that old Ford, he just could not keep rear axils under it, it had a ton of torque.

When I raced quarter midgets in the 60's we had "floatless 7/8 Amal" carbs on Alky on the "double A cars" It was a controlled drip system. They were the hot set up back then, however we could only jet them for 1 speed "WOT", no mid range and no idle. On starts and yellow flag laps they looked like a bunch of bucking broncos out there going around the track banging and beating one another.

Electronic injection has come to racing in a big way. Next year NASCAR will be using them in the cup cars. Guess that spells the end to $10,000.00 carburetors. They will cry a little at first but then it will all die down in a few weeks. I would almost bet lap times go down and they will probably do away with 1 or 2 pit stops along the way. I call that an improvment. I thought racing was supposed to lead the way and not follow, you know rear view mirrors, safety belts and helmets.

Back to the old "Power Comanders" They are band-aids used to adjust electronic injectors. What they actually do is tie into the engine temp part of the ECM and fool it into thinking the engine is hotter or colder than it really is, thus making the injection pulse longer or shorter and adding or taking away fuel. That is why when racing these engine you should leave the thermostat in to keep engine temp. constant.

Bob is use to adjusting mechanical injectors with pills and springs and turning the barrel valve. This seems second nature to him. He is also used to adjusting go kart carbs on the track "screw it out till it blubbers then screw it back in until it clears out" Do not take your eyes off of the track. I did that only once!

To adjust a car with an Alky converted injection system and a PC that has already been mapped can probably be done the same way with the fuel pres. regulator. Raise fp up to about 70 or 75 psi. If it blubbers drop 2 or 3 psi and try it again untill it clear up then raise it 1 psi for safety. You can do this on Alky but I would not do it on gas The window is way too narrow. They will always run the best when Lean but you take the chance of turning your motor into melted junk. We always ran our gas motor about 5 to 10 psi over the factory setting, helps them cool.

I've noticed when tuning on the Dyno there are just a few places that require tweaking from factory settings usually because of free flowing pipes and the pipe's ram effect on the intake system. I would suppose a person could just install larger injectors and a stainless filter and tune with Fuel Pres. only and come out with a pretty good set up.

To tune with the PC and get it spot on you will need a Dyno and a way to check your Air Fuel ratio and somebody to hook up the computer and make your map. But race cars don't have to be perfect just "close enough for government work":6:

George I Sent you a message.

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Mcinturff you have a pm.

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