What's in a name,
 

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Lightning, mini sprint people have been fighting this name thing for 25 years now. Mini describes something small and that doesn't do justice to what our cars of capable of on the race track. Lightning means fast. My idea of Lightning fast is a 410 sprint at Winchester that is Scary lightning fast, that we are not. So what would be a good name for us to use?
I was talking with "AJ" Felker last winter and he told me that he had measured things out between one of our cars and a sprint car sitting in his shop and that we were exactly 3/4 the size of a sprint car. Maybe we could be Three quarter sprint cars but somebody is already using Three Quarter to describe there class and after all a midget is also Three Quarters the size of a sprint car. So I'm Still looking for a name.
I grew up in the 50's. Back then a 3/4 midget was Three fourth the size of a midget with little bitty 10 inch wheels and tires and short wheel base. I watched them run with us the other night and now it's more like 7/8 midget to be correct. With the 13" wheels and longer wheelbase and cage I could hardly tell the difference between them and us, and I know the people in the stands didn't know.
Looking back after the midget's we invented with the TQ midget to be a cheaper form of racing than the expensive Offy powered Full midget. They were 3/4 th the size of the "full" midget, thats what we called them back then "full" meaning they were the real deal. The TQ's used old Harley Davidsons cut in half and Crosley's for power back then. They used the Crosleys until there were no more Crosley's to be used a full 25 or 30 years after the last crosley was ever built. Then they found out the old outboard motor's built in Germany worked real good, In fact too good so they had to do away with them for the good of the sport. In about 1976 or so they found the good old Honda 750 motor and I guess that has been the motor of choice up until just a few years ago.
Then came the Micro midget they were even smaller than the TQ's and used the old General Jumbo Jr. tires that were even smaller than the TQ tires. The motor of choice in them was the 20 cubic inch Cushman. I raced them and let me tell you they were fast, or at least I thought so. After the micro midgets came the 1/2 and 1/4 midgets powered by the old "Continental Red Seal" engine's taken from old army surplus tent heater's.
Back in the late 80's Somebody got the idea that if you took one of the new Jap 1200 cc or even a 600cc motorcycle engines and put it in a midget frame you could make a neat race car. If you put a wing on them they looked just like one of them new "winged outlaw sprint cars" That had just started getting popular but smaller. So I guess they said lets call them "mini outlaw sprint cars". Back then we also had the mini skirt and they were "cool" but as anything in womens designs were dated. So here we sit with a neat race car with a dated name.
About 5 years ago an old guy up in Ohio wanted to race midgets and Mini sprints together. At the time he said mini was a bad name and perhaps lightning sprint would be a better name for us. I can't think of his name but I think Lyn Ambrose won the race in a 600 cc car. Now half of us are "Mini" and the other half of us are "Lightning" sprints.

I think we are anything but "SPRINT". If you wanted to race with us first you would need to buy buy a frame. That could be either a used midget frame or a special mini sprint frame that has a top rail 1/8" smaller than a midget. Then you would buy a front axil and spindles the same thing as a midget, next wheels and Tires that right also midget items. You go to our shock guy and buy midget shocks valved for a lighter car. The rear axil is the same as a midget except it doesn't have a center section with it. We use a chain drive because we can hook up our engine easier. WE buy a tail tank and body again from a midget, can you see where I'm going with this. We chose the wrong last name. We should be "midget" instead of "sprint". If we did use a sprint frame then maybe with the help of oxygen I could race too.

In the last several years we have been playing with the idea of removing our wing's and racing naturally as "God" intended us to. Now would also be a good time to get our name more in tune with who we are and what we are doing. We are in fact a midget framed race car powered either by a 600, 1000 or 1200 cc motorcycle engine. We are capable of reaching speeds close to that of a "full" midget because our engines are on the cutting edge of technology a full 20 years ahead of the old pinto and chevyII motors.

When we look back the micro midget almost died out because lack old the old Cushman motors to race and the expense of the newer motorcross motors to keep up and running, but the 600cc bike motors gave them new life also in the form of the 600 cc sidewinder "mini sprint", so now we have 600 cc upright 600 cc sidewinder and 1000 or 1200 cc upright mini sprints. We need a new name.
The name midget is used in several classes, beginning with 1/4 and half midget, micro midgets, TQ midgets, Kenyon Midgets, Focus midgets, Echo-tec midgets and my favorite the "Full" midget. They either denote the size of the race car as compared to a "full" midget or the type of power plant that is used to power them, when they share the same frame as a midget. It makes sense to me to call our cars "crotch rocket midget", or "pocket rocket midgets" after the type of motor we use to power them. We might even use the term "Liter midget" or "1000 cc midget" or "1200cc" midget". Any of the above makes more sense to me than "mini sprint". We really have very little in common with a sprint car other than the fact that most of us, and some of the sprint cars use wings to race with. We do share a lot with the "Full midget" except for cost of racing.

Re: What's in a name,
 

No offense but I think all the names you mention aint good, just using the word midget and most people think little people drive them. I dont know about the rest of you guys but my 1340cc upright is a sprint car. Personally I dont mind lightning sprint. The names micro and mini are totally confused now. It always was that a micro was a 600 on 10 wheels and a mini was a 1000-1200 on 13 inch wheels. At least here it was like that, now everything is a minisprint.

Re: What's in a name,
 

At one time they were called "Modified Midgets" around my part of the country. Go back to that....might get some of the door slammer fans confused and come out and watch a race. Also have heard of "Midget Lites" out in California.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Lightning, mini sprint people have been fighting this name thing for 25 years now. Mini describes something small and that doesn't do justice to what our cars of capable of on the race track. Lightning means fast. My idea of Lightning fast is a 410 sprint at Winchester that is Scary lightning fast, that we are not. So what would be a good name for us to use?
I was talking with "AJ" Felker last winter and he told me that he had measured things out between one of our cars and a sprint car sitting in his shop and that we were exactly 3/4 the size of a sprint car. Maybe we could be Three quarter sprint cars but somebody is already using Three Quarter to describe there class and after all a midget is also Three Quarters the size of a sprint car. So I'm Still looking for a name.
I grew up in the 50's. Back then a 3/4 midget was Three fourth the size of a midget with little bitty 10 inch wheels and tires and short wheel base. I watched them run with us the other night and now it's more like 7/8 midget to be correct. With the 13" wheels and longer wheelbase and cage I could hardly tell the difference between them and us, and I know the people in the stands didn't know.
Looking back after the midget's we invented with the TQ midget to be a cheaper form of racing than the expensive Offy powered Full midget. They were 3/4 th the size of the "full" midget, thats what we called them back then "full" meaning they were the real deal. The TQ's used old Harley Davidsons cut in half and Crosley's for power back then. They used the Crosleys until there were no more Crosley's to be used a full 25 or 30 years after the last crosley was ever built. Then they found out the old outboard motor's built in Germany worked real good, In fact too good so they had to do away with them for the good of the sport. In about 1976 or so they found the good old Honda 750 motor and I guess that has been the motor of choice up until just a few years ago.
Then came the Micro midget they were even smaller than the TQ's and used the old General Jumbo Jr. tires that were even smaller than the TQ tires. The motor of choice in them was the 20 cubic inch Cushman. I raced them and let me tell you they were fast, or at least I thought so. After the micro midgets came the 1/2 and 1/4 midgets powered by the old "Continental Red Seal" engine's taken from old army surplus tent heater's.
Back in the late 80's Somebody got the idea that if you took one of the new Jap 1200 cc or even a 600cc motorcycle engines and put it in a midget frame you could make a neat race car. If you put a wing on them they looked just like one of them new "winged outlaw sprint cars" That had just started getting popular but smaller. So I guess they said lets call them "mini outlaw sprint cars". Back then we also had the mini skirt and they were "cool" but as anything in womens designs were dated. So here we sit with a neat race car with a dated name.
About 5 years ago an old guy up in Ohio wanted to race midgets and Mini sprints together. At the time he said mini was a bad name and perhaps lightning sprint would be a better name for us. I can't think of his name but I think Lyn Ambrose won the race in a 600 cc car. Now half of us are "Mini" and the other half of us are "Lightning" sprints.

I think we are anything but "SPRINT". If you wanted to race with us first you would need to buy buy a frame. That could be either a used midget frame or a special mini sprint frame that has a top rail 1/8" smaller than a midget. Then you would buy a front axil and spindles the same thing as a midget, next wheels and Tires that right also midget items. You go to our shock guy and buy midget shocks valved for a lighter car. The rear axil is the same as a midget except it doesn't have a center section with it. We use a chain drive because we can hook up our engine easier. WE buy a tail tank and body again from a midget, can you see where I'm going with this. We chose the wrong last name. We should be "midget" instead of "sprint". If we did use a sprint frame then maybe with the help of oxygen I could race too.

In the last several years we have been playing with the idea of removing our wing's and racing naturally as "God" intended us to. Now would also be a good time to get our name more in tune with who we are and what we are doing. We are in fact a midget framed race car powered either by a 600, 1000 or 1200 cc motorcycle engine. We are capable of reaching speeds close to that of a "full" midget because our engines are on the cutting edge of technology a full 20 years ahead of the old pinto and chevyII motors.

When we look back the micro midget almost died out because lack old the old Cushman motors to race and the expense of the newer motorcross motors to keep up and running, but the 600cc bike motors gave them new life also in the form of the 600 cc sidewinder "mini sprint", so now we have 600 cc upright 600 cc sidewinder and 1000 or 1200 cc upright mini sprints. We need a new name.
The name midget is used in several classes, beginning with 1/4 and half midget, micro midgets, TQ midgets, Kenyon Midgets, Focus midgets, Echo-tec midgets and my favorite the "Full" midget. They either denote the size of the race car as compared to a "full" midget or the type of power plant that is used to power them, when they share the same frame as a midget. It makes sense to me to call our cars "crotch rocket midget", or "pocket rocket midgets" after the type of motor we use to power them. We might even use the term "Liter midget" or "1000 cc midget" or "1200cc" midget". Any of the above makes more sense to me than "mini sprint". We really have very little in common with a sprint car other than the fact that most of us, and some of the sprint cars use wings to race with. We do share a lot with the "Full midget" except for cost of racing.

I've always called them "Winged Midgets":16

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by bc22:
I've always called them "Winged Midgets":16

Midgets have 4-cylinders, mini-srints have motorcycle engines.

Re: What's in a name,
 

I like hulk hogans new show, micro wrestling, next year it will be called mini wrestling and the year after midget wrestling. :)

Re: What's in a name,
 

Sound like your a little late DAD.

Midwest Lightning Sprints
Illinois Lightning Sprints
Calf. Lightning Sprints
Rocky Mountain Lightning Sprints Association
Southern State Lightning Sprints Series

Maybe it should be Indiana Lightning Sprint Association??

You Indiana guys are about the only people still calling them mini's
except our friends up north in WI.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Hey Dad I agree with most of what you said the only issue is change...If every organization in the nation would adapt a national rules package and name all at one time problem solved...like that is gonna happen....I like the midget part...anything to get away from the word MINI....there is only 1 organization in the nation that uses the word midget to discribe our cars and that is http://azmodifiedmidget.com/site/....Which I do like, but the nation and the general public know these cars as mini sprint then again as Bob has said 250/270 are micro sprints and some organizations with 600's are call micros and some mini...hell even I get confused who to send stuff out to for the winternationals...again as Bob quotes:"micros and sidewinder600 have 10" tires and wheels and the minis have 13" wheels and tires" most is true but here in Florida the FMSA (Florida Mini Sprint Association) run 10" and 750's.

You are very right on having a uniformed name. I personally like Modified Midgets but so many TRUE mini sprints series have changed to Lightning Sprints in the past 2 years, not only in the USA but also in Australia and New Zealand so Lighning has worked for me. This is something that I will be bring up at the promoters workshop in Orlando at the PRI show in Dec....Damn good write up and hope it does not fall on death ears Dad!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Quantrill:
Sound like your a little late DAD.

Midwest Lightning Sprints
Illinois Lightning Sprints
Calf. Lightning Sprints
Rocky Mountain Lightning Sprints Association
Southern State Lightning Sprints Series

Maybe it should be Indiana Lightning Sprint Association??

You Indiana guys are about the only people still calling them mini's
except our friends up north in WI.

:22: source tells me... Look for them to change their name in 2012 :22:

Re: What's in a name,
 

Papa Outlaw

That is a 600-750 micro group. I cut this from there rules

Originally Posted by :
750cc and 1000cc engines will not be allowed for the 2010 season

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by Quantrill:
Papa Outlaw

That is a 600-750 micro group. I cut this from there rules

Quantrill...hey...This is the group I am talking about...Wisconsin/Illinois Mini Sprints
http://www.wimsracing.com/index.html

Re: What's in a name,
 

i am new to the race scene but i have had my share of dissapointments from the name mini sprint. i had a truck that i had purchased from north carolina put several thousand dollars in and then decided i wanted to race. with out doing a whole lot of searching i just found out the basic rules 1000 cc or less chain drive things like that and took others advice and traded my truck for my first mini sprint. two weeks later i show up only to be turned away. i had purchased a damn sidewinder. long story short i thought i was getting a great deal on a 4500 mini and turned out i lost bad. i do like the name mini sprint but it seems like there needs to be a better definition to "mini sprint"

Re: What's in a name,
 

We started the mini sprint thing in Indianaback in the 80's, so perhaps it is ingrained in or minds a little stronger. Most of your groups came along later like about 5 years ago when this guy was was calling for a change. You can probably find his post on IOW. I am just saying he got it wrong too. Can you name me one thing on your car that came from a sprint car? We are very closley related to a full midget. We could race midgets and the crowd would not know the difference. However if we got on a track with sprint cars we would stand out like T%$#@ in the punch bowl.

Mini really doesn't bother me I have been using the word for most of 20 years now and it makes sense to me. Now LIGHTNING what the hell does that apply to. The sad part of it is people have also been looking for a replacement name for MIDGETS. In my eyes they are the ultimate race car bar none. Any one who is an open wheel racer would probably testify to that. Put 20 of those things on a 1/4 mile track and the good cars and drivers rapidly come to the top. Racing 1/4 midgets make kids better drivers and racing midgets make adults better racers. I think mini sprints has a place there also.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Can you name me one thing on your car that came from a sprint car? We are very closley related to a full midget. We could race midgets and the crowd would not know the difference.
. Now LIGHTNING what the hell does that apply to.

DAD did you read my post.."You are very right on having a uniformed name. I personally like Modified Midgets but so many TRUE mini sprints series have changed to Lightning Sprints in the past 2 years, not only in the USA but also in Australia and New Zealand so Lighning has worked for me. This is something that I will be bring up at the promoters workshop in Orlando at the PRI show in Dec....Damn good write up and hope it does not fall on death ears Dad!!!!!!

Re: What's in a name,
 

BC22 your name makes sense to me. I think on the east coast they put wing on their midgets and race.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
BC22 your name makes sense to me. I think on the east coast they put wing on their midgets and race.

Then what do you call them with the wing removed?

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

Originally Posted by bc22:
i've always called them "winged midgets":16

:16

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Lightning, mini sprint people have been fighting this name thing for 25 years now. Mini describes something small and that doesn't do justice to what our cars of capable of on the race track. Lightning means fast. My idea of Lightning fast is a 410 sprint at Winchester that is Scary lightning fast, that we are not. So what would be a good name for us to use?
I was talking with "AJ" Felker last winter and he told me that he had measured things out between one of our cars and a sprint car sitting in his shop and that we were exactly 3/4 the size of a sprint car. Maybe we could be Three quarter sprint cars but somebody is already using Three Quarter to describe there class and after all a midget is also Three Quarters the size of a sprint car. So I'm Still looking for a name.
I grew up in the 50's. Back then a 3/4 midget was Three fourth the size of a midget with little bitty 10 inch wheels and tires and short wheel base. I watched them run with us the other night and now it's more like 7/8 midget to be correct. With the 13" wheels and longer wheelbase and cage I could hardly tell the difference between them and us, and I know the people in the stands didn't know.
Looking back after the midget's we invented with the TQ midget to be a cheaper form of racing than the expensive Offy powered Full midget. They were 3/4 th the size of the "full" midget, thats what we called them back then "full" meaning they were the real deal. The TQ's used old Harley Davidsons cut in half and Crosley's for power back then. They used the Crosleys until there were no more Crosley's to be used a full 25 or 30 years after the last crosley was ever built. Then they found out the old outboard motor's built in Germany worked real good, In fact too good so they had to do away with them for the good of the sport. In about 1976 or so they found the good old Honda 750 motor and I guess that has been the motor of choice up until just a few years ago.
Then came the Micro midget they were even smaller than the TQ's and used the old General Jumbo Jr. tires that were even smaller than the TQ tires. The motor of choice in them was the 20 cubic inch Cushman. I raced them and let me tell you they were fast, or at least I thought so. After the micro midgets came the 1/2 and 1/4 midgets powered by the old "Continental Red Seal" engine's taken from old army surplus tent heater's.
Back in the late 80's Somebody got the idea that if you took one of the new Jap 1200 cc or even a 600cc motorcycle engines and put it in a midget frame you could make a neat race car. If you put a wing on them they looked just like one of them new "winged outlaw sprint cars" That had just started getting popular but smaller. So I guess they said lets call them "mini outlaw sprint cars". Back then we also had the mini skirt and they were "cool" but as anything in womens designs were dated. So here we sit with a neat race car with a dated name.
About 5 years ago an old guy up in Ohio wanted to race midgets and Mini sprints together. At the time he said mini was a bad name and perhaps lightning sprint would be a better name for us. I can't think of his name but I think Lyn Ambrose won the race in a 600 cc car. Now half of us are "Mini" and the other half of us are "Lightning" sprints.

I think we are anything but "SPRINT". If you wanted to race with us first you would need to buy buy a frame. That could be either a used midget frame or a special mini sprint frame that has a top rail 1/8" smaller than a midget. Then you would buy a front axil and spindles the same thing as a midget, next wheels and Tires that right also midget items. You go to our shock guy and buy midget shocks valved for a lighter car. The rear axil is the same as a midget except it doesn't have a center section with it. We use a chain drive because we can hook up our engine easier. WE buy a tail tank and body again from a midget, can you see where I'm going with this. We chose the wrong last name. We should be "midget" instead of "sprint". If we did use a sprint frame then maybe with the help of oxygen I could race too.

In the last several years we have been playing with the idea of removing our wing's and racing naturally as "God" intended us to. Now would also be a good time to get our name more in tune with who we are and what we are doing. We are in fact a midget framed race car powered either by a 600, 1000 or 1200 cc motorcycle engine. We are capable of reaching speeds close to that of a "full" midget because our engines are on the cutting edge of technology a full 20 years ahead of the old pinto and chevyII motors.

When we look back the micro midget almost died out because lack old the old Cushman motors to race and the expense of the newer motorcross motors to keep up and running, but the 600cc bike motors gave them new life also in the form of the 600 cc sidewinder "mini sprint", so now we have 600 cc upright 600 cc sidewinder and 1000 or 1200 cc upright mini sprints. We need a new name.
The name midget is used in several classes, beginning with 1/4 and half midget, micro midgets, TQ midgets, Kenyon Midgets, Focus midgets, Echo-tec midgets and my favorite the "Full" midget. They either denote the size of the race car as compared to a "full" midget or the type of power plant that is used to power them, when they share the same frame as a midget. It makes sense to me to call our cars "crotch rocket midget", or "pocket rocket midgets" after the type of motor we use to power them. We might even use the term "Liter midget" or "1000 cc midget" or "1200cc" midget". Any of the above makes more sense to me than "mini sprint". We really have very little in common with a sprint car other than the fact that most of us, and some of the sprint cars use wings to race with. We do share a lot with the "Full midget" except for cost of racing.

What's up with this. I've never heard you say so much! Ha ha.
The only thing about the the name is hearing people say "Oh "Mini Sprinit" aren't those go-karts." Different name would be nice but no suggestions. Look forward to seeing all back home soon.

Re: What's in a name,
 

In my minds eye say LIGHTNING SPRINT I can see a sprint car with one hell of a motor in it. When I hear 1000cc midget I see a midget racer with a 1000 cc motor in it. If I hear WINGED 1000cc MIDGET that is eactly what I see. Ihave heard the word midget for damn near 60 years now and I still like the sound of it because I know exactly what the hell it is.


I AM JUST TRYING TO GET PEOPLE THINKING!

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
In my minds eye say LIGHTNING SPRINT I can see a sprint car with one hell of a motor in it. When I hear 1000cc midget I see a midget racer with a 1000 cc motor in it. If I hear WINGED 1000cc MIDGET that is eactly what I see. Ihave heard the word midget for damn near 60 years now and I still like the sound of it because I know exactly what the hell it is.


I AM JUST TRYING TO GET PEOPLE THINKING!

I hear ya loud Dad that is why I like the name "Modified Midget"... here in Florida when people the less then average fan when asked "less go see a mini ____ race"... "oh I don't wana go watch them go kart things"...all they hear is the word MINI, but that is here in Florida....or MIDGET...What year is the MGB's...so as I said Lightning Sprint works for here cause so many other series have adapted...but I know where you are coming from...Wayne

Re: What's in a name,
 

[QUOTE=Papa Outlaw;257611]Hey Dad I agree with most of what you said the only issue is change...If every organization in the nation would adapt a national rules package and name all at one time problem solved...like that is gonna happen....I like the midget part...anything to get away from the word MINI....there is only 1 organization in the nation that uses the word midget to discribe our cars and that is http://azmodifiedmidget.com/site/....Which I do like, but the nation and the general public know these cars as mini sprint then again as Bob has said 250/270 are micro sprints and some organizations with 600's are call micros and some mini...hell even I get confused who to send stuff out to for the winternationals...again as Bob quotes:"micros and sidewinder600 have 10" tires and wheels and the minis have 13" wheels and tires" most is true but here in Florida the FMSA (Florida Mini Sprint Association) run 10" and 750's.

You are very right on having a uniformed name. I personally like Modified Midgets but so many TRUE mini sprints series have changed to Lightning Sprints in the past 2 years, not only in the USA but also in Australia and New Zealand so Lighning has worked for me. This is something that I will be bring up at the promoters workshop in Orlando at the PRI show in Dec....Damn good write up and hope it does not fall on death ears Dad!!!!!![COLOR="Black"]


Charleston IL still goes by Coles County Modified Midget Association (CCMMA). They run Jr sprints thru 600's. Side mounted engines or upright, it's your choice. Though the track was est. in 1956, it did start out as micro midgets until it joined the now defunked NMMA.
The sidewinders or side mounted engines seem to come around on the 125 and 250 classes in the latter 70's.
For you history nuts, look in your collection of Open Wheel mags from the first year, not sure which issue, and there was a story and pics of a so called mini sprint club in MN that ran snowmobile engines in them....clutch and belt drive to a jack shaft.......way before Doemelt, Bailey, EMC, and Competition Welding started building the 1000+cc cars of the late 80's.

Since they are bike engines why not "Moto-Sprints" or better yet "Moto-Midgets".......and then we can refer to them as M&M's :5:

Steve

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by mscs20:

Since they are bike engines why not "Moto-Sprints" or better yet "Moto-Midgets".......and then we can refer to them as M&M's :5:

Steve

:8: good one Steve...although I think we are :deadhorse:

Re: What's in a name,
 

I agree with all that has been said so far and have been thinking along the same mind frame as DAD has for a little while now. I have just bought my first Upright / Mini Sprint / Lightning Sprint / 1200cc Sprint / Modified Midget a couple of months ago. I found the following in the Illini Racing Series Sportsman Midget rule book.

Motorcycle powered cars – No intake restriction necessary.1200 cc max with RPM limited to 10,500

 Chain drive allowed on the motorcycle engine. The chain must be enclosed for safety.

 The seat height minimum is 10 inches on the chain drive motorcycle midgets. Measured from the bottom of the frame rail to the lowest part of the seat.

So with these we are already classified as a Sportsman Midget as well.
We can be called Sportsman Midget, Motorcycle Powered Midgets (or like Steve said Moto-Midgets), my favorite of Chain Driven Midgets, a Chained Midget, or a combination of these like in the Seat height rule above.

Papa, you are probably right. Most groups have already changed to Lightning Sprints and wouldn’t want to change again. I agree with DAD, however, and feel that because we have so much more in common with a FULL midget that the name should reflect that. Midget's have a history of having a diverse field of engine sizes and manufactures, whereas Sprints and Stock Cars have been dominated by small block Chevys. This diversity could allow our engines to be ran in a Midget but the chain drive still set us apart thus the name Chain Driven Midget.

AJ

You guys are making this way too hard...
Mini-Sprints are upright, chain driven cars that can be run with or without wings with engines from 600-1200cc...
Micro-Sprints are sidewinder, chain driven cars that can be run with or without wings, with engines from 250-1000cc...
That's all it is, this thread should be over...
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by AJ_Engines:
I agree with all that has been said so far and have been thinking along the same mind frame as DAD has for a little while now. I have just bought my first Upright / Mini Sprint / Lightning Sprint / 1200cc Sprint / Modified Midget a couple of months ago. I found the following in the Illini Racing Series Sportsman Midget rule book.

Motorcycle powered cars – No intake restriction necessary.1200 cc max with RPM limited to 10,500

 Chain drive allowed on the motorcycle engine. The chain must be enclosed for safety.

 The seat height minimum is 10 inches on the chain drive motorcycle midgets. Measured from the bottom of the frame rail to the lowest part of the seat.

So with these we are already classified as a Sportsman Midget as well.
We can be called Sportsman Midget, Motorcycle Powered Midgets (or like Steve said Moto-Midgets), my favorite of Chain Driven Midgets, a Chained Midget, or a combination of these like in the Seat height rule above.

Papa, you are probably right. Most groups have already changed to Lightning Sprints and wouldn’t want to change again. I agree with DAD, however, and feel that because we have so much more in common with a FULL midget that the name should reflect that. Midget's have a history of having a diverse field of engine sizes and manufactures, whereas Sprints and Stock Cars have been dominated by small block Chevys. This diversity could allow our engines to be ran in a Midget but the chain drive still set us apart thus the name Chain Driven Midget.

AJ

I hear ya AJ, the unfortunate thing is I have spent thousands of $$$ this year promoting LIGHTNING SPRINTS here in Florida and I would be shooting myself in the foot to change my series now specially in it's infancy stage....I know to the racer it is not that big a deal but the way I am promoting my series Lightning Sprints are just a Division of Southern States Sprints Series...next year I will be starting a new Division call SW600 which is the Sidewinder 600 Micro Sprints. You guy's in Indiana need to think a lil outside the box as a promoter and not just a racer and what everyone else across the country might be doing...I have to cause my Winternationals bring several different groups together in Feb.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Papa,

I totally understand about not wanting to change the name for the marketing sake of promotion. Other series across the country have changed to Lightning Sprints or will change soon as well. Whatever the name is, it should be as close to universal as possible, along with the rules between sanctions. This allows for racers to travel easy and fans across the county to recognize these cars quickly for what they are. This should help the promoter advertise if the public clearly understands what is being offered. I just wonder if we would benefit more from name being related to a midget rather than a sprint because of the size of the cars in the fan's perspective.

AJ

Re: What's in a name,
 

What's in a name ? It's getting late here in no. Ky tonight, I've read this thread all day, (thanks Dad) I'm about to put it to bed, I have come to the conclusion that, If it works, don't fix it, as far as the MMSA is concerned, MINI SPRINTS is working.

We just finished a very good season, 18 races in 3 states,on 9 different tracks, 10 different winners, 70 different race drivers from 10 different states, 15 of the races we served as a support class, not a single promoter asked me what a mini sprint was when I contacted them to schedule, they just want to know, are we self starting ? they want to keep the show moving, the race track promoters in this area know we provide a field of top quality cars and drivers and are cooperative in serving the tracks need, that's why they place us on the schedule. I fail to see the need to change our name.

The name "Lightining Sprints" apparently appeals to a lot of orginizations,
Maybe they feel that helps them with scheduling, fan appeal, etc. I wish them all success, In the future, if condition change, we may want to adapt a different monicker. presently, I kind of like the -
"Midwest Mini Sprint Association" Winged Warrior Tour, It's worked satisfactorily for four years. I hope we can all be friends, we don't have to have the same name, some new M&M group may show up.

Bill May

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by Quantrill:
Sound like your a little late DAD.

Midwest Lightning Sprints
Illinois Lightning Sprints
Calf. Lightning Sprints
Rocky Mountain Lightning Sprints Association
Southern State Lightning Sprints Series

Maybe it should be Indiana Lightning Sprint Association??

You Indiana guys are about the only people still calling them mini's
except our friends up north in WI.

NY has Empire Lightning Sprints and Central New York Mini-sprints.

Re: What's in a name,
 

M&M's :3: I call mine a lightning sprint since I've heard the name. Around here say midget or mini and you can forget about anyone showing any interest. Everyone who see' my car say's hey nice sprintcar. use the names midget, mini, or micro and no one in these parts give a crap about the car. I believe the goal is to bring new fans to the sport, which in turn usually brings more racers. Mini, micro or midget aint gonna work except for us old timers. I dont understand how it can be said that a lightning sprint isnt a sprint car, Its a slightly smaller sprint with a motorcycle engine and chain drive. It aint no midget. Midgets are dinosuars pretty much everywere but the midwest and the ardc. Everyone on this site and promoters also know what a minisprint is but your average fan has no idea anymore.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Spend a week in Tulsa the second week of January and talk to me about Midgets. They might be dying but they all come to life again in January. If you put your lightning "sprint" on a track with a REAL sprint car it--Will look "MINI". Since you have a midget frame if you put it on a track with Real midgets iit will fit right in.

I do appologize us Indiana people are around both Midgets and Sprints more than you other people and we tend to take some things for granted.

I don't understand the desire to be associated with midgets. Full midgets themselves are near death. Even in Indiana not that many people give a damn about midgets, its sprintcars. Calling these cars "fill in the blank"-sprints, at least makes them associated with something very popular all over the country.
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Spend a week in Tulsa the second week of January and talk to me about Midgets. They might be dying but they all come to life again in January. If you put your lightning "sprint" on a track with a REAL sprint car it--Will look "MINI". Since you have a midget frame if you put it on a track with Real midgets iit will fit right in.

I do appologize us Indiana people are around both Midgets and Sprints more than you other people and we tend to take some things for granted.

No need to apoligize, but I dont have a midget frame, it was built around a 1200 engine for the express purpose to build a minisprint, not a midget. So I either have a minisprint or a lightning sprint, I dont care which it is anymore. The only people who think my car is a midget are usually over 70 years old, everyone else tends to think I have a minisprint.

Re: What's in a name,
 

If every piece on my cars did not come from a Midget except for the engine I could see your point. I own and race an FSC midget race car with with a 1000 cc Kawasali motor in it. If I had a few more thousand dollars I could put in a midget motor and rear end and race with the midgets. But I'm having too much fun racing mini-sprints with the Bill May and the MMSA. I don't however think I could put a 410 in and they would let me race with the sprint cars. Maybe if I raced with a nose wing I would feel more like a Lightning Sprint whatever a "Lightning" is. I know that a Focus midget is a midget race car with a Ford Focus motor instead of the $30,000 midget motor. I know than an eco-tec midget is a midget race car with a GM eco-tec motor in it. Im a little slow but that make sense to me. I can see the car and I can see the motor used in the car. I even know that a Kenyon midget is a midget race car with a 1200 cc Yamaha motor in it designed by Don and Mel Kenyon. Im just saying back in the early eighty's somebody screwed up. Hell back then we had 4 wide parade laps, started on the back straightway and raced back to the yellow if the outlaws did it we did it too. It was the trendy thing to do You know like "mini skirts"

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

I think I was just called an "old man".

Re: What's in a name,
 

i think your beating a dead horse here. almost everyone changed the name to lightning with in the last 2 years. they wont change it again and it doesn't need to be changed. so what if it looks like a midget and has midget parts that doesn't mean that it is a midget its a lightning/mini sprint. theres nothing wrong with assoiciating it with a sprint car there just a scaled down version. this topic seems to keep coming up again and again and gets nowhere. its time to move on and leave it be and worry about more important things.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Dad, if your refering to my post I didnt call anyone a old man. My car sits in front of our place and we have quite a few folks stop and look at it. The younger generation always calls it a minisprint, the elderly usually refer to it as a midget. If it has wings personally I call it a piece of $%*!.

Re: What's in a name,
 

What is a "Lightning"?******* "Back it in" 95% of*** our*** racing is done with wings.

---------- Post added at 09:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

I went on-line to try to find the origin of "lightning sprint" couldn't do it, but I did find that those crazy people Down under are taking v/6 motors and putting them in midget chassis and calling them "lightning sprints". That would be a real racey car. Since USAC did away with the v/6 motor. We could probably make a class that was faster than both the sprints and midgets of today, Remember Glen Niebel and Ralph Potter They ran away with both USAC sprint car and midget title's with little v/6 motors. We should probably call this class "V/6 midgets" or maybe "V/6 Spridget".

Could you guys maybe have picked up the term "Lightning" from the popular cartoon show "Johny Lightning"?

Re: What's in a name,
 

Why does everyone think that faster is always better ? The best racing anywhere around here are the 600 nonwing micro's at Hamlin PA. If 95% of your racing is done with wings, personally I believe 95% of your racing sucks.

Re: What's in a name,
 

SO SAD BUD you don't got no 600 sidewinder you need to be working up a trade or not race because the 1200's in your neck of the woods run wings also most of the time.

Re: What's in a name,
 

I think the name thing is relivant to where you are and or who you run with. If you run with sprints then Mini Sprint fits nicely. If you run where there are no sprints just fender cars then lightning works. I think any way you go you are going to get confusion out there from the casual race fan.

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
SO SAD BUD you don't got no 600 sidewinder you need to be working up a trade or not race because the 1200's in your neck of the woods run wings also most of the time.

Well if your refering to me I bought exactly what I wanted because a 1000/1200 LIGHTNING SPRINT in my opinion is the finest racecar you can have without being rich. Also I've raced enuff in my lifetime to NOT run what I dont like. As far as the 600's go we just got one for my daughter to run at Hamlin. The 600 is a sweet LITTLE car. We also have a big block modified at our disposal, on the bullrings around here a 1200 posts the same if not faster times then the big block taxi cabs. Save the sad for someone who needs it.

Re: What's in a name,
 

He re is an open letter to all mini sprinters dated 2009. This guy is with the NLSA National Lightning Sprint Association located in "Canada". They race 750 cc mini sprints up there and he wants us all on the same page. Now I know "Lightning" is a market idea and doesn't represent anything. Now I'm going to work on the 750cc idea.


An Open Letter to Upright “Mini‐Sprint” Promoters and Drivers
Written by: Darren Pallen (President: Northern Lightning Sprint Association, Winnipeg, Canada)
Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Darren Pallen. I have been involved in the sport of auto racing for over 20 years. In the early 1990s, I raced Mini‐Sprints (a 750 c.c. Bishop Racing Components car) before moving on to full‐size Sprint Cars for three seasons. Since retiring from racing in 1997, I have spent the last eleven years performing motorsports announcing duties including events like Monster Jam, the IHRA, and several local stock car and motocross tracks.
When I made the decision to return to driving a race car early in 2008, I quickly realized that building a full‐size Sprint Car program would not be an option due to soaring costs. I then looked at several different stock car divisions, and the results were exactly the same. Most surprising, however, was what I found with the Mini‐Sprint class. It is this discovery that prompted me to write this commentary.
Following several months of research, I concluded that very little has changed in the Mini‐Sprint world in terms of the way these cars are being marketed throughout North America. Further, I discovered that Mini‐Sprint rules (especially engine rules) have not yet fallen in line with what these cars were originally intended to be (affordable). In summary, I found that many of the same things that were hurting the growth of Mini‐Sprint racing back in the 1990s are still prevalent today.
Let’s begin with marketing. In short, the term “Mini‐Sprint” is a very poor representation of a modern day upright, midget‐based, motorcycle engine powered Sprint Car. Without a doubt, these are full‐blown, legitimate race cars. In the exact words of Pat Mooney, a broadcasting friend of mine here in Canada, there is nothing “mini” about these cars. They are built to the same specifications as a full‐size Sprint Car, and in my opinion carry engines that are far more technically advanced than anything else found at a dirt track. In fact, they may be the most technically advanced production engines on the planet. Yet, we continue to call these cars “Mini‐Sprints”. If you were a sports a, would you be eager to go watch a “Mini‐Football” game? A “Mini‐Baseball” game? Or how about a “Mini‐Hockey” game? Likely not.
I ask that all upright 750 c.c./1000 c.c. “Mini‐Sprint” organizations consider removing all evidence of the word “Mini‐Sprint” in your advertising and other correspondence and replace it with the more professional term “Lightning Sprint”. I believe this will help our organizations gain better credibility with fans and promoters and help to achieve better payouts through a more professional image. Today, success is achieved through a sound marketing program, no matter what your business may be. The term “Lightning Sprint” is much more marketable than “Mini‐Sprint”. The use of “Lightning Sprint” will also help distinguish our upright cars from that of the smaller cars in the Micro‐Sprint division. In my estimation, it is quite easy for the casual fan to mix up “Mini” and “Micro”. Changing to the term “Lightning Sprints” will help eliminate this confusion.
In all forms of racing, creating a “universal” rule book has always been a huge challenge. There is no doubt that a “universal” North American Lightning Sprint rule book would be great for everyone, but it would certainly not be easy to execute. However, imagine for a moment the opportunity to be able to travel amongst all upright Lightning Sprint organizations, knowing that you have the same equipment as everyone else. The benefits are simply endless.
My idea of a sustainable rules package for Lightning Sprint racing is based around the use of completely stock motorcycle engines burning pump gasoline only (the same way they left the factory). Back in the 1990s, I was disappointed to find many Mini‐Sprint organizations that promoted unreasonably expensive engine rules. This problem has not changed with many organizations to this day. Why do we need highly‐modified, expensive motorcycle engines in these cars? If Joe Racer wants to spend that kind of money building an engine that is far less reliable than when it left the factory, then my thought is that Joe Racer might want to consider racing full‐size Sprint Cars.
The opportunity to “re‐brand” and “re‐market” Lightning Sprint racing has never been better than it is right now. Rising costs in stock car racing (Street Stocks, Super Stocks, Modifieds, etc.) are making it tough, if not impossible for these drivers to continue. If we collectively market and create truly affordable rules packages for Lightning Sprints in the correct fashion, we can attract many drivers from these other classes, as well as provide an affordable racing opportunity for younger drivers who wish to graduate from their starter classes. Collectively, let’s see what we can do to make this sport more attainable for everyone. Our ultimate success or failure, in my opinion, will be directly linked to our rule books.
When we created the Northern Lightning Sprint Association (www.nlsprints.com), our goal was to make certain this class ended up in the position that it was originally intended to be: fun, fast and affordable. Using a democratic voting process and the long‐term vision of many excited new drivers, we created a rule book that will serve to keep this sport growing in Canada for many years to come. It is important to note that the NLSA has only been in existence since October of 2008. And although we have yet to turn a wheel as an organization, I am proud to announce that the NLSA already has 14 cars ready to race in 2009. My guess is that we will have several more very soon.
Your comments and observations are welcome at dpallen@darrenpallen.com
Regards,
Darren Pallen
www.nlsprints.com

Re: What's in a name,
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Let’s begin with marketing. In short, the term “Mini‐Sprint” is a very poor representation of a modern day upright, midget‐based, motorcycle engine powered Sprint Car. Without a doubt, these are full‐blown, legitimate race cars. In the exact words of Pat Mooney, a broadcasting friend of mine here in Canada, there is nothing “mini” about these cars. They are built to the same specifications as a full‐size Sprint Car, and in my opinion carry engines that are far more technically advanced than anything else found at a dirt track. In fact, they may be the most technically advanced production engines on the planet. Yet, we continue to call these cars “Mini‐Sprints”. If you were a sports a, would you be eager to go watch a “Mini‐Football” game? A “Mini‐Baseball” game? Or how about a “Mini‐Hockey” game? Likely not.
I ask that all upright 750 c.c./1000 c.c. “Mini‐Sprint” organizations consider removing all evidence of the word “Mini‐Sprint” in your advertising and other correspondence and replace it with the more professional term “Lightning Sprint”. I believe this will help our organizations gain better credibility with fans and promoters and help to achieve better payouts through a more professional image. Today, success is achieved through a sound marketing program, no matter what your business may be. The term “Lightning Sprint” is much more marketable than “Mini‐Sprint”. The use of “Lightning Sprint” will also help distinguish our upright cars from that of the smaller cars in the Micro‐Sprint division. In my estimation, it is quite easy for the casual fan to mix up “Mini” and “Micro”. Changing to the term “Lightning Sprints” will help eliminate this confusion.

The opportunity to “re‐brand” and “re‐market” Lightning Sprint racing has never been better than it is right now. Rising costs in stock car racing (Street Stocks, Super Stocks, Modifieds, etc.) are making it tough, if not impossible for these drivers to continue.

This is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say!!