Midget Motors
 

It seems when you get right down to it, talks about midgets always end up the same place "MOTOR" cost.
What would make a good Midget motor?
How many cylinders?
How many cid?
Do we take into account cylinder head type or leave it open?
Do we allow electronics?
Do we allow turbochargers?
Do we allow transmishions?
Do we allow chain drive again?
Do we specify stock block and head?
Do we allow hybrid motors from cycle top ends and special cranks and crankcase?
Do we make a claim rule?
Do we use a spec sealed engine?
What would be a good Midget motor ?? and why?:23:

Re: Midget Motors
 

My first shot across the Bow is ....................

Start with the current USAC # 1050 & engine rules so you do not obsolete current equipment & let stock production car head & block engines 2.5 liter max run @ 1000 # like the Volkswagen is allowed

Lightning Sprint Chassis chain drive 1200 cc stock engine or 1000 cc with allowing one to modify which will yield about 200 Rear Wheel HP.
By my rough calculations this car should weigh about 850# to be competitive with a USAC Midget

Allow the Esslinger/RRE etc. spec engines in at a weight in between that makes them competitive also

This will allow for some innovation & give peeps a option of what they can afford, back yard engineer, buy used equipment or buy parts off the shelf

Then throw the Green Flag & Let Er Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiippppppppppppppp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Open up the rules to allow more current OEM based engines to be competetive within reason.
No transmissions and no chain drives. By defination a midget is direct drive with a rear end gear. Some very old timers will argue that a long time ago some midgets were chain driven, those days are gone.
No claimers and no spec engines. Innovation can reduce the cost of these motors...
Posted via Mobile Device

Do they Allow the aluminum mercruiser engines.. ?
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: Midget Motors
 

Why is it that the definition of a midget is direct drive with a rear end gear...do you think chains are crude? Midget because of engine cost has all but put them out of business. Why is it that Micro racing and Lightning Sprint racing is on a surge? Clearly it is engine cost...Look over in Aus. how they have revived the midgets...STOCK MOTORS cut the cost. Every person in the stands could careless if the midget is chain driven or gear driven. what they do care about is the racing and the care count. infact with the chain drives being self starting is a plus

Re: Midget Motors
 

I'm old school, raced gokarts back in the 50's. I'll never forget getting on a dual engine kart and steeping on the gas the first time, that was a kick in the pants. Since a midget must have a rear end and drive shaft, because that is the way we define them now and history doesn't count and we can't think outside the box god forbid and use a chain drive. Here is what I would do, first get two high tec jap1000cc motors, find some old school 3/4 midget machinist to cut off the transmishions bolt them to a motorplate with a drive shaft in the middle driven by timeing belts from each motor, lay the left motor over and stand the right motor straight up and drive through a drive shaft to the quick change rear end. We currently are getting about 225-245 horse power with these enginines now, double that equals 450 horse power, with a 1150 car and driver that would be about 2.5 horsepower to the pound. The driver would have to take careful aim before depressing the go button. It would also probably be hard on right rear tires.

Re: Midget Motors
 

Go get a new mid-price Esslinger @ $20K and race happily everafter. Take it to a USAC race where the rpm's are limited and be competitive with the best in the world. Take good care of it and race two seasons before you rebuild it. Problem solved!

Re: Midget Motors
 

My motors cost $4500.00 I can't afford $20,000.00. My motor's make more horsepower I can run for 5 or 6 years with my motors and then replace them with the newer and badder motor out of Japan. Eslinger is so low tec us kids don't get into low lec stuff. Do you drive to work in a Pinto?

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 AM ----------

Buck we do have an arm guard sponsorship open. Would you be interested? About $12500.00 per year.

Dad you should build a chili bowl special.
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: Midget Motors
 

IMHO A midget is direct drive, The other is a minisprint! :deadhorse:
Maybe its time to shoot the hoarse.:22:

Re: Midget Motors
 

Tom my last combo was direct drive. I can't afford a car for one race, It would be a handfull at Tulsa. But if the rules were a little looser it would be a fun project to race with. We still race those damned horses down here in Ky. They do it with weight.
LETS TALK MOTORS that is the big problem everyone say's. Does anyone have any ideas on what would be a good in-expensive midget motor?

Re: Midget Motors
 

yes, it was called FOCUS...what was wrong with this?

Re: Midget Motors
 

Guess you have never seen Focus car and mini -sprints run together.

Re: Midget Motors
 

Wasn't it suppose to keep the dollars down? I realze its not as powerfull as the other midget engines, but it was stated..."what would be cheeper engine for inline drive midgets"....wasn't focus designed to do this? Who knew the mini"s (in the beginning) would be as competitive with the migets?

Re: Midget Motors
 

That would also make mini sprints the fastest thing around. I guess it would be "great" for mini sprints with bigger purses and bragging rights.

Gotta suck when you get smoked my a low tech 20 thousand dollar pinto engine don't it. Haha
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: Midget Motors
 

I don't have a lot of time on this Earth...but here is my two cents. I participate in the NEMA Lites series as a crew chief back here in New England. We run on asphalt with wings and the Ford Focus midget engine. This series is probably the MOST COMPETITIVE series I have ever witnessed. On a good night we have 20+ cars show up and the racing is INTENSE. The Focus powerplant was a great idea at the start, but the cars were so closely matched that people started building $70,000 cars around an $8,000 dollar engine. We have outlawed titanium parts, have a two tire a night rule, and only allow one cockpit adjustable component. We race for little to no money so to speak, and while that may suck from time to time, that's the price you have to pay to go racing. Over time, we may be able to start devolping a purse for most of our races. The reason that we are sucessful comes down to one thing. The people in the stands, for the most part, DON'T CARE whether or not that midget out on the race track has a 400 HP Esslinger or Gaerte or a 200 HP Focus under the hood. If the racing is good...they will want to see more of it. The focus in midget racing when it comes to engines should be, in my opinon, on engines that can last 2 or more seasons, and allow the teams to spend their money on TIRES. Soft tires make for good racing. Focus cars in USAC are dogs because of the tire rules in USAC. We run lap times half a second to a second of the full midgets in NEMA and around 90 miles an hour average to 100 mph. We have had at least six different winners, including a couple of first timers. Life is pretty good out here in New England, and midgets are thriving in the home of Modifieds and Pro Stocks. Imagine that....

Re: Midget Motors
 

If I had 20 grand pocket change for a motor I woundn't be here doing this. I would be working on making a small fortune by buying up imitation pinto motors and racing with the rich kids for a purse that was much too small for my investment, sounds like the government we got now doesn't it, You can't pay $500.00 dollars for a solar panel and sell it for $200.00 and stay in business long, that aint good business sense and you can't do that with a race car either, go until your small fortune is bankrupt.

Re: Midget Motors
 

While talking with one of my guy's I got a great idea. Buy a new supper Esslinger motor send it to ***** and tell them you want a thousand just like the one you sent them. You pay $1000.00 per copy and sell them for $3000.00 every body is happy except poor Esslinger who can't afford to fight them. In go-karts they now race Honda Clone Motors. Do you think Honda is making anything off of these motors. Don't try this with a MOPAR! motor or you will get the Federal government as well as well as the Unions after you.

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:20 PM ----------

Does the same thing happen if I type in ******?

Re: Midget Motors
 

Mating two cycle engines was done 28 years ago by Kenyon and a few others and I liked 'em. USAC ditched those for some reason, probably too cheap. They don't believe in going backwards. If you're gonna do that just go all the way back to the greatest sounding engine of all time .... Offenhauser!

Re: Midget Motors
 

A 110 offy was 1803 cc's or 1.8 liters. What motor's are in this size range that would be small enough to fit in a midget frame and develop enough power to be competitive. Also diesels need a turbo to make them come alive to make them a choice could we do away with the naturally aspirated rule. Now car company's all like do drop engine size and add a turbo to get more power and better economy do we do this too. A turbo is no longer exotic nor is electronic engine control, "a few of the good things to come out of clean air". All we have to do is come up with a formula using what we have already developed in the automotive field and get away from the expensive old past. Up until a few years ago qma "Quarter Midgets of America" only allowed Contintal red seal engins to compete. Well Contintal went out of business in the 50's and a good quarter midget motor went for upward of $4000.00, and some of the better motors were lease deals only. When a single overhead cam is high tec we have a problem, and how many of these engines have even one piece made by the "oem" in them, like Shakespeare said," There by hangs the tale". Most minisprint rules say "OEM" block and head, what would happen if a midget rule said that. We wouldn't have $20,000.00 low tec motors running. Hell even NasCrap is going to electronic injection, so long $10.000.00 carbs and holes in intake manifold gaskets.

Re: Midget Motors
 

@ DAD

I like the idea of production Car & Motorcycle engines becoming competitive in Midget Racing , this gives a greater opportunity to the Back Yard engineer/mechanic to show his skills & helps cut the cost of Midget Engines way down

Re: Midget Motors
 

There's one that I don't think has been mentioned. Take a look at the NEMA roster. http://www.nemaracing.com/roster.htm You'll see all the big name engines. Last Saturday night, one of the Autocraft-powered cars absolutely smoked them. You can see the story on http://www.nemaracing.com

They cost a lot less than the big names. Anything with enough power to pull that huge roof around has enough power to put on a good show.

BTW, as mentioned above, the NEMA Lites put on a good show that night, too.

Re: Midget Motors
 

A good friend of mine, the guy that got me started in the muffler business many years ago raced midget's with USAC. He developed several midgets most of which were one of a kind specials. One of his first was a chain drive VW. He had a lot of experience building and racing 1/4 midgets and thought it would be the logical move less weight less loss HP through the drive line, USAC said no. He then decided that the new little GM V6 could make a real race engine. He worked several years and spent all kinds of time and money getting the thing to work well and it finally did. USAC changed their rules to make it non competive aganist the engines of the day once again. I think he sold off all of his midget stuff except for one car, raced silver crown cars for a few years and retired. It seems if your not in their click they don't have much use for you and will do away with you and your Ideas.

Re: Midget Motors
 

For the life of me I dont understand why chain driven is a bad thing. The new chains hardly stretch at all and if you have it set up correct theres no reason it would ever come off. Also its so much lighter, not to mention less expensive. I bet not one person in the stands gives a crap whats turning the rear wheels. It doesnt matter what they used to run, it's what should be allowed now, thats the issue. Bottom line is if you plan on having a midget you better have the bucks.

Re: Midget Motors
 

This would be one of the first post started about the alternate Midget race car. I'm thinking this would be a year or two before a very lively discussion about what to name the thing took place. Wayne Davis liked the term Division II Midget>>>Bill May shortened it to D2 Midget and I guess that stuck. Back then the discussion was stimulating and enjoyable, Today not so much. When debate is stifled we all lose. Name calling and unbecoming rhetoric is not appreciated or acceptable in the USA or for that matter IOW. As a member of the group, that pioneered this concept several years ago I beg my right to contribute and add my opinions on how it might be improved with out being yelled down.

Bill Jones AKA Dad

Re: Midget Motors
 

3.8 GM V6... They use that in Australia in their non-wing sprints and costs/performance is good.

Re: Midget Motors
 

Aces

The 3.8 is a little old and it too is out of production, How about a 2 liter supercharged Late model GM??? Back in the day racing did all the innovation and the manufactures used their innovations, today The manufactures are doing the new cutting edge stuff. If a class is to remain affordable it should be able to draw from the many new engines that the manufactures seem to be coming up with every year. Motors like the GM 350 are things of the past, they have all been salvaged and recycled back into other things. The same hold true with the 2.2 or 2.4 Gm Motors of today. They are cheap, when worn out the salvage yards simply melt them down. This is being done now as we speak. They use the salvaged aluminum in other things. Like the Vega Motor in a few years they will be gone from the horizon. Then what?

Johnny Murdock hit the nail on the head a few years ago. 2.4 liter and under stock internals, and 1000 cc motorcycle engines. That was the rules ,let's go race.

Re: Midget Motors
 

R

They don't make 2.4 s anymore.

Re: Midget Motors
 

WOW !!! This thread pops back up after 5 + years , For the record my opinions on the subject have not changed Bwahahaaa!!!

Yep,and by the same s^^t stirrers.claims he wants an opinion and suggest improvements.actually it's usually negative talk.

Re: Midget Motors
 

I kinda got the feeling after I had been sucked in. It started off with questions/suggestions on alternative powerplants for midgets, but it became clear it was more about pushing motorcycle engines and chain drives.:14: I'm not into midgets really, but if you want to run chain drive motorcycle engines I think they call that a mini-sprint, just do that. I do think midgets could benefit from a more economical engine package/rules, but without resorting to disguising a mini-sprint as a midget. JMO

Re: Midget Motors
 

I was pretty much done with the subject 5 years ago, out on the left coast your still lucky if you have a dozen Midgets show up to race most the time, not much has changed out here and life moves on !!!

Re: Midget Motors
 

OK Gang

I don't see me pushing MC Motors. They have their own problems right now. I am pushing new low mileage salvage motors. I just got off of a John Murdock rant on Face book concerning engine builders and being beat by overpriced engines built by high dollar engine builders. This is not what you guys want. The 2.4 is dead>>>You can not buy a low mileage 2.4 motor from a junk yard and race it >>>because they no longer exist. However there are some other motors that are available that would work fine and maybe work even better>>BUT the rule book ruled them out before they got started.

Is there a phrase that goes further than "beating a dead horse"?

I would think you old coots would eventually get tired of bickering about the same topic day in and day out.... maybe the retirement home needs to limit internet usage.

Re: Midget Motors
 

So your in favor of engines straight from the scrap yard, no rebuilding or blue printing. No thanks, I've had my fill with that in the crate late models around home. They've cried and whined so much now, they want you to buy a new GM602, run it however long it last and then chuck it... That's dumb. I never understood racers who got upset about how much somebody else spent, there is only so much that can be done legally, after that your just getting ripped off. A fool and his money. Pick an engine, spec the parts, enforce the rules and race. Let the whiners get a new crying towel. Ooops, gotta run, its bingo today in the common area and I've got my eye on a new set of teeth.

Re: Midget Motors
 

AaaaaaaaaaHahaaaaaa!!!

Re: Midget Motors
 

For those of you who haven't been paying attention, there were a couple of fairly high-profile events a little over a week ago, one in Georgia and one in Illinois, one 5000 to win and one a first-of-its' kind indoors with a USAC sanction running the rules packages that you're bashing, and both with very respectable car counts. May not be everyone's cup of tea but it's actually gaining a bit of a foothold. And in the Midwest there really isn't a debate anymore about whether or not chain-drive cars belong, they are consistently competitive with their automotive counterparts.
No need to get nasty, either; c'mon...

Re: Midget Motors
 

I thought the midget outlived its usefulness the first time I saw a v/8 engine combined with a sprintcar. I could never make sense of spending as much or more on a midget then you would on a full size race car.