Passing Points Ties
 

I've posted this topic several times before and I'm not going to give up the campaign to get a solution to the points ties. For those new to this topic, this has to do with drivers/teams drawing for heat race positions ( no time trials ). Drivers are then place in the heat races according to the numbers that were drawn. Drivers are then rewarded points for finishing position plus passing points. Here is the problem: When the point totals are assembled, there may be several drivers that have accumulated the same number of points. The crucial issue here is that the points totals are used to determine feature and semi feature starting positions. The current method being used penalizes the drivers in heats 2, 3 and/or 4 (assuming there are four heats on the program) in that the drivers in the higher numbered heats are awarded preference in terms of starting positions in the feature races. Here are two examples of how unfair this method is:

USAC Midget Week 2007: The Kokomo midget race had a number of drivers tied with the same number of points. The drivers in the first few heat races were placed in the feature while the drivers who were last to race in the heats had to go to the semi:crying:.

This weekend at Macon, three drivers tied for points that would have allowed any of the three to start on the pole of the feature. The driver who was in the earliest heat race was awarded the pole position, while the other two drivers who participated in later heat races had to start in the 7th and 8th positions:crying:.

My solution to this is a simple one. When there is a points tie(s), the race officials redraw numbers for the tieing drivers. No need to have the parties present for the draw. Tell the participants in the drivers meeting that this is the way the ties will be handled so everyone knows in advance what the procedure will be to determine the feature lineups. This at the very least takes away some the handicap for the penalized drivers:).

Just because the traditional method that I have outlined above has been used over the years does not make it right. Come on race organizers and promoters... let's stop penalizing drivers because of which heat they participate.

Don Moore

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Don , your solution is simple and would eliminate the "bad luck of the draw" for those in the latter heats ... but while you campaign for this change , I don't think the Indiana Open Wheel message board will bring about the change.

Take it to those of authority to make the change - and "best of luck" with that ! :angry-smiley-007:

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Already have done that. We need some people with ****s to step out of the box and get the problem corrected. The people in charge of these events read this message board.

Don Moore

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Isn't that just another draw? They basically already break them based on what they drew originally. What's the difference?

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Spot on, drawing over would just be another luck situation, the 1st draw was a luck situation. DM-10's idea sound like someone that has spent alot of time in a Bingo Hall where they have a redraw for losing tickets!

Maybe break tie with :
1 Highest finish
2 Improved position
3 Time of heat race
4 After night one, highest in midget week points

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Spridge: My point is this: When I show up at the track, I want to have an equal chance to make a good feature position as the next guy. When you draw for position, the number each person draws puts them in a certain track. Everyone starting a heat race should have an equal opportunity to potentially make the feature with no strings attached. Acquiring the same number of points as 2, 3, or more other teams should be equal at that point. A handicap of being in the lower heat race numbers before the racing even starts is not acceptable, period. But that is the system being used. What it comes down to is that a team has a 75% chance of being screwed regarding a choice position in the feature assuming the team has enough points. And even that is a problem if there are several that have the same point total like the Kokomo race. In that case, you may end up in the semi feature.

The bottomline is: Once the heat races are completed and the points are totalled, every team should have an equal opportunity to make any feature position, regardless of the heat they were in. So what is the solution?

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Difference is just Don...:headbang I dont get the difference between the origional draw and draw off also?

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Correct........ They are just reverting to the original draw, in which the lower number put that driver in the first heat.

Now, if you REALLY wanted to make it interesting, how about having the tied drivers out on the front stretch for a Rock/Paper/Scissors contest to break ties? Maybe even pick a couple of kids from the stands to represent the drivers in the game?

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

At most tracks the cars use transponders. Break ties by starting the driver that turned the fastest lap in his heat 1st, then 2nd fastest and so on. Everyone would have an equal chance that way regardless of the heat they were in.

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Points and draws??? Points are for the "other" sports and drawing is for cards in Las Vegas. Qualifying and starting the feature according to your time you get back from a top 4 heat race finish is what racing is!
Why is everybody trying to take the racing out of RACING???:headbang

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Regarding a second draw: A second draw for a tie allows the 2 or more teams to put things back in the mix and scramble who is where in the feature. Otherwise, the teams in the heats 2 on down always get screwed. A second draw eliminates the guy in the first or second heat getting the favor.

The org that I raced with this weekend did not use transponders, but that would be a good solution.

I would go for qualifying any day rather than having a 75% chance of being screwed out of a position.

It makes no sense to me that three teams with the same point total are already predetermined by the heat race order. Why one team can be awarded the pole position and the other two 7th and 8th place is beyond me.

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Top 16 in passing points from Saturday night

1. Ray 61
2. Allgaier 61
3. Loyet 59.5
4. Cone 56.5
5. Anderson 55
6. Altig 53.5
---------------(Top 6 invert cutoff)
7. Myers 53.5
8. Coons 53.5
9. Camfield 52
10.Lehman 50.5
11. Robbins 50.5
12. Robinson50.5
13. Daum 49
14. Beaucamp 49
15. Ballou 49
16. Knepper 47.5

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

If you were to have the same situation result from qualifying, (6, 7, 8 have identical qualifying times, I know it is not likely) p6 under most circumstances is supposed to go to the driver who posted that time first. This has been the standard practice used by myself and other scorers I have worked with for the last several years.

Should we now draw for drivers who qualify with the same time?

Basically what I am trying to say is that someone has to be the cut off point and those outside of that point will feel cheated. The person who scored the same points and had the highest draw will feel cheated if he has to draw to determine the tie and then ends up on the outside of the cut off because of the draw.

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

I'm not sure that everyone is thinking out of the box with this one. It's too easy to just accept anything that has been done one way for a long time. After all that gets all of us out of our comfort zone when something is changed.

Let me state a few foundation statements and let's see what we can come up with:

1. Race teams should be equal when they arrive at the track. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to participate in the racing program.

2. The heat races will determine the feature and semi feature lineup.

3. Each heat race shall be equal to the other heat races in terms of points awarded.

4. The outcome of the points totals and placement of teams in the feature or semi feature shall be blind to the order of the heat races. There shall be no penalty for any team regarding which heat they participated in.

OK... that is the foundation. Now the question is what do we do when 2, 3, 4, 5 or more teams tie for points?

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Well, just to play Devil's Advocate, and going along with Don's theory, here are a few more questions:

1. Is the draw system (whether qualifying or not) really "fair" to all drivers? As each pill is drawn, there are less pills to choose from, which changes the odds of drawing a "good" number.

2. A "good" number is a matter of perspective as well. The track changes during qualifying and the heat races. Sometimes it gets better and sometimes it gets worse. Is this "fair" to all drivers?

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Those are good points also, but again, we are talking about breaking ties and rarely do we have ties in qualifying since modern day tech can time cars in such detail. I certainly don't have any problem with qualifying, at least you're in control of your own destiny as opposed to gambling with the pill draw.

I've been talking about thinking out of the box, so here's a suggestion:

A pill draw would be held as usual. Heat race lineups assembled as usual. Here is the change. The racers would race for 7 laps ( could depend on the track ) maybe as few as five. White flag on the penultimate lap and then the checkered. The racers immediately form a single file line in the order of finish. Next lap around the flag person signals the racers to reverse the order and line up side by side for a second race ( or a continuation of the first race, however you want to look at it ). Green flag and another seven laps... heat race completed.

Points would be totalled for each leg of the heat race. Number of points awarded for position and passing could be increased to help avoid ties. This idea is a spinoff of the double feature concept used at the Montpelier midget race two years ago, which was very popular with the crowd and the Chili Bowl heat race concept where they run two qualifying heats.

To me this would be something very entertaining for the audience... which drivers are able to improve their position the most under two different circumstances! And will this concept help eliminate ties? I haven't done the math yet. I don't know.

Again, I'm trying to think out of the box and come up with new ways to present the product to the fans.

OK.. comments??

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

We sometimes did the double heat race format for the two years I've scored the micro-sprint races at Pittsfield. The lineup for the second race was inverted off the lineup of the first race. The winner got 10 points, with a one point drop for each position. (DNF's got zero) We had ties all over the place. If no one dropped out of either of their heat races, we'd often see things like five or six-way ties for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in points.

The ties were broken by going back to the original draw. So you'd basically make everyone run 20 laps of heat racing, and the final point standings would look a lot like the original pill draw order.

Granted, the top 6 in points would re-draw for their starting positions in the dash for cash, but 7th starting spot thru the ballance of the feature grid still often resembled the draw.

Re: Passing Points Ties
 

Good info there. Thanks!! Not many solutions coming forth. :crying: