Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Looking to work out a deal with anyone that knows anything about working on midget racecars.* #56 has been plagued by issues for months (maybe even longer).**Not trying to do anything over the computer or phone at this time.**Apparently I need someone to hold my hand!* Wouldn't expect help for nothing.* Please contact me asap with any interest.* Willing to work out a deal, up to including me not driving for a race*or something.* If we can make progress today, maybe can fire off Sat AM in town and then head to Macon*4 POWRi race???* 815 494-6002 (will be out in shop and not on computer).* Thanks!*

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Ok, how about this...I'm checking checking fuel nozzles (again), drive spud engagement (again), flow rates (again), and rating valve springs (again) I guess...(def of insanity???). I'll have a baseline set-up on, so if anyone WANTS to at least be around Saturday morning, hopefully we could fire off around the Rockford area and make a plan from there. It's an exercise of futility for me on my own (or with anyone without midget racing experience). Gotta start somewhere....

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

hi-speed..s valve stuck open?or maybe the famous fuel filter in backwards....I've done all myself...good luck

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

I tried to help, just too far away. :-)

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Jason
What are the symptoms?
It sounds like you are chasing fuel problems.
I know at Tulsa you were thinking ignition.
What have you done differently, if anything?
Jeff Palazzolo

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Originally Posted by red70racer:
Jason
What are the symptoms?
It sounds like you are chasing fuel problems.
I know at Tulsa you were thinking ignition.
What have you done differently, if anything?
Jeff Palazzolo

Got any idea what your pressures, and percentage's are as you're attempting to start it now? Hilborn will give you some starting setups, or if you'll give out some settings as they are now, maybe we can be of help, FI is pretty simple to diagnose, but some help is required, to help diagnose. Some real numbers would be great. Bob:)

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Timing is at 34 deg before TDC

Did have that problem like it was running out of power last fall, but found and changed bad drive spud before Ft Wayne. It seemed to run fine on that shorter track.

Paul Kreuger gave me a deal on a newer mag after Tulsa (in addition to not starting on Saturday, seemed to fade away in the other races on prelim night) and we put that it before this last practice (tow days ago).

At first Thursday (two days ago) it would not run well at all. Went around about 3 laps and took it out of gear concerned about the mag placement. Engine seemed to run well for a moment then, but I could not keep it running. It was approx 50 deg and the car had been in shop and oil was warm. I do not think it was because of weather.

Drained out the fuel (mixture of what was bought at Ft Wayne and Tulsa) and put in some about 4.5 gallons I got from another unsealed source. Started off running like a champ! Thought we'd be good to go. Was punching throttle down straight, but backed off early as car wasn't set-up for pavement. Ran 6-8 laps and thought should check things over before anything harder. Started to kinda pussyfoot it around more. Can't believe it would just load up on me, but something went awire? There still was not any temp in the water or anything, but at least the engine should have started to get warm. Decided to add another 3.5 gal of "unsealed" fuel; thinking that although the pick-up is fully submerged, maybe I had some issue there.

Unfortunately, with everything going on had a drive-shaft issue/torque tube issue and wasnt' able to check with full fuel load. Need to re-check all that and re-square in addition to engine problems.

Just been an exercise in frustration for me lately. Have had to emotionally remove myself in order to avoid getting really upset. Basically at a lose at this point. Hate to keep rechecking and checking the same things. If not for the above mentioned concerns and thoughts, I'd almost give up and pull the engine. Still want to try to get it up to good temp with - what is supposed to be - fresh fuel (and with drive-shaft secure!). Want to do a leak down with water 180-200 deg. Otherwise, will be checking fuel nozzles (again), drive spud engagement (good), and rating valve springs I guess...now can check everything else thanks many have suggested too...

Here in Machesney Park, IL (90 miles West of Chicago). Pretty much a one-man-band on this project. Intend to have ready by Thursday for practice at Rockford Speedway.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Well the first thing i would do is google kinsler fuel injection. If you dont have there bible you need to grt it. I'm pretty sure they have it online now. They are easy to talk to and they sort of wrote the book in fuel injection.
I havent heard anything about barrel valves yet they get out of wack pretty quick. Probably fuel fouled plugs by now get a torch and using very small flame try to get down inside and heat them up. Good luck

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

High speed 67
Low speed 22
Barrell 14

Sure everyone has a different idea, but I really do not think changing these %s 5-10% is causing my problems???

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Originally Posted by jdull99:
High speed 67
Low speed 22
Barrell 14

Sure everyone has a different idea, but I really do not think changing these %s 5-10% is causing my problems???

Another piece of info, what size pump, zero or double zero? How many lines off the pump, and how are they routed? From what you have here, the hi-speed seems way high, and idle bypass seems low, and barrel valve is on the hi side, from what I see here, your oil ought to milk up, just almost immediately. This might explain why you don't get any heat in it. If you haven't already, I'd log on to Hilborn, they have an on line setup for plumbing, under "tech", which will explain a few things. With out knowing what size pump, whose hi-speed you have, makes it difficult, but with a OO pump, I'd suggest a starting set up of 48psi on the hi-speed, 28psi on the idle bypass, 8-10% on the barrel valve, and run the idle bypass to a fuel block, with the hi-speed, and a line from there, to the tank, that takes any feedback, and backpressure out of the idle bypass. To set the barrel valve, back off the idle on the shutters, set 2 of them on .002 shim stock, remove the lines from the nozzles, and remove the plug from the bottom of the valve, and plug the idle bypass, then set the percentage of leak, with the link between the valve,and the throttle shaft. Now, hook everything back up, and give it a try. While you're setting the barrel valve, you can make sure it is installed correctly, by opening the throttle, after you remove the .002 shims, if the percentage moves up, then drops off, it is rotating the right direction. These numbers should get it running, at least, the fine tuning will come later. Good luck! Bob:)

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Jason
I think your settings are correct, like everything they could be fine tuned, however I've seen the car run before at those settings.
I would look for something out of the ordinary, the first place I would look is the tank vent. I have seen guys chase fuel problems and forget about the importance of the vent.
If I'm reading this right you are okay on start up but it acts up after running some laps (tank vent)
If that is okay then look for something real stupid like drive spud bolt broken where it looks okay but under power it spins freely.
Have you re-routed return lines? if you have your main by-pass in front of your high speed it cannot go anywhere after it pops off, so check routing as someone else here suggested.
Keep us informed
Jeff Palazzolo

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

tape the radiator to get some heat in it. dont rely on fuel settings to get the temp where you want it cause it sounds like that a different problem altogether.
check the oil.....does it stink like alky and look milky or is it clean and brown?
barrel valve seems a little high but i dont think, unless you are trying to idle it without closing the fuel valve a little, it shouldnt matter at this point.

does it start out running strong and then get worse or is it just running out of power at the end, or run like crap all the way up the power band?
if it is just running out of power at the end, try taking the high speed setting up to the 70-75 range and take some gear out.....it might be opening too early and causing the motor to fall on its face and/or too much gear and it is running itself over the power band and dying.

i think i would also take the tank off, drain it, wash it out real good and then go front to back thru all the lines and make sure there is nothing hiding that is causing a fuel flow problem on top end (get the pump checked too or borrow a known good one)

and all of this is assuming the the valve springs and lash are correct and you dont have worn out or cracked springs. and you have fresh plugs in the motor.
any changes you make, dont go out and run 30 hard laps.....run a couple laps and if it feels better, bring it back in and check the plugs to be sure you didnt go too rich or lean.

also.....be careful taping the radiator.....temps can come up real quick!
dont over do it!
good luck

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Thanks everyone. Will be pluggin away this week. Plans are to be out at Rockford Speedway Thursday night for test and tune. Always welcome any help can get. Will do what I can.

Radiator's taped. At 50 deg and just an oil tank warmer. I don't think anything is going to get much water temp in just 6-8 laps.

It's a Waterman fuel pump. 3 lines off it. Low & high go back together with a T. Pill on it's own.

Thank-you.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Jason, also check the fuel pickup in the tank. We had an on going problem when we were running our focus midget that caused us issues all season. The guy we sold it to finally figured out the pickup was sucking up the bladder. He fixed that and it ran great. Figures
Dan Chady lol

Sounds like c47 had a fuel issue on his own midget at one point! ;-)
Posted using Mobile Device

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Originally Posted by CTtoPA:
Sounds like c47 had a fuel issue on his own midget at one point! ;-)
Posted using Mobile Device

sure did......learned a lot of things that DONT work.....:14:

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

I think I ask this before, but what/who's, hi-speed bypass you using. We fought one, one summer, that would ck good, and run good for a few laps, then it would go bananas, and run real crazy, and you couldn't get any kind of idle out of it at all, it'd run off, then get real rich, you could start the car, pull in the pits, and remove the tank cap, and sometimes the hi-speed by pass wouldn't be doing anything, as it should be, then the engine would go to high idle, and the hi-speed would be dumping in the tank, at whatever pressure you had it set at. I tried all sorts of things to get it to stay adjusted, but nothing worked, I "coined" the seat, even went in with a center cutting end mill, and just made a fresh seat in it, and nothing worked, except a brass bodied one, and it wasn't real good, so I went to a Kinsler diaphram type, with the pill in it, to keep it from dropping off pressure too fast, and it's been working OK. Just some more ammo! Bob:)

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Without seeing and hearing whats really going on.......
-Valve springs can check good when cold but go soft when the engine is fully warmed up
-main pill holder put inline facing the wrong way so no fuel is being returned on the main circuit. This also holds true for the high speed and secondary.
-Hairline crack in any fittings on the suction side of the pump, mixing air with the fuel before the pump is very bad. Look especially close to the bulkhead fitting that passes between the tank shell and the bladder.
-Have the pump tested. If its down at all the longer you run the engine the more it will fall off because of heat building in the pump

That should get you started

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

good point about air leaks.....especially at high speed/pressure

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

I had something stupid happen to me one time and it took awhile before I figured it out. I had run my fuel line through the cockpit along the bottom frame rail. It ran right next to the throttle pedal. Well, apparantly it moved over time and everytime I raced, the motor would fall flat after 3-4 laps. I was actually pinching the fuel line with the pedal. The more I pushed on it to go the worse it ran. Get back in the pits and check it out and was always fine then. Ran new hose and re-routed it just a bit.

I hope you find the problem. I know what a headache it can be.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

With a waterman pump your pressure fittings need to be on the opposite side of the suction or supply side of the pump. The ports on each side 90 degrees from the supply are not both pressure ports. The ones closer to the supply inlet are on the suction side of the pump. The ones next to them or away from the supply inlet are pressure ports. Very easy to get mixed up. Your fuel settings are close! they will not make it do what you are describing. The possible sucking up the bladder with the pickup is the most probable cause. I have seen where the pickup attaches inside the tank the hose could be broken(old) or the fitting (if you have a bulkhead) is loose and sucking air at that point.

Good Luck Jason
ps if you have a brass screened filter the fuel mix at Tulsa with the ethanol will seal off the brass material.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

The last comment about the brass filter sealing off due to ethanol fired a dormant synapse.

If you have the brass element nozzle filters they could be stopped up and causing the problem. I had this happen on a sprint car. The filters had been cleaned regularly, but over time they built up enough fine stuff in there that they quit flowing. I replaced them and that took care of it. You could ultrasonic clean them with a jewelry cleaner too.

I found those filters at Grainger pretty cheap. They were actually an air tool muffler.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

BTW, it IS a "400" pump.

Planning on taking it out to Rockford Speedway tonight (Thurs) night. Use any expert help avail. Any1 that knows what they are doing and helps me get it goin would be welcome to take some laps too!!!

815 494-6002

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Check for perforations in the fuel pu or the wall of the pu tube has bubble on the inside that prevents flow at a rate to sustain optimum flow. Also check any fittings in the fuel line for hair line cracks . A guy I know blew up 6 motors due to a cracked piece of brass on the fuel cell. Try blowing air backwards thru the fuel line.....also teflon tape can plug up lines if it gets into the system.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Check the fuel filter. If it was cleaned with brake clean if might not flow properly! If stainless simply soap and water will do it.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

You should give Daryl Saucier at DSR Fuel Systems a call 317-490-3410.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Had ready to go tonight but session got rained out. If anyone can help, maybe I get the track Saturday. Can only tow to Rockford Speedway at this point. Thank-you for any interest.

---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 PM ----------

Could at least throw some gas money out there and would be interested in purchasing 5 gallons of some "fresh"/recently sealed methonal.

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Thank-u to everyone who at least offered verbal/www ideas and assistance toward my midget "tuning" problems. Seemed to run well tonight on fresh fuel. Had made couple other small adjustments. Still thinkn bad fuel from the indoor races though...Don't know what to do now, but at least it seems as tho it would run the way it is!!!

Jason Dull
815 494 6002
jdull99@hotmail.com
jasondull.com (For all the Racing News)

Re: Lookn 4 any1 2 help get #56 running...
 

Do yourself a favor, and buy yourself an alcohol hydrometer, and use it faithfully, whether or not you find the fuel was the problem, at least the next time, you'll know what your pouring in the tank! Good Luck! Bob:)