Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Now that CCWS has gone bankrupt and sold its assets(if you can call them that) off to Tony George, is it possible for the Silver Crown division to get their name back for good?

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

champ dirt cars, championship cars. old school still call them that. i'm not sure usac ever had a copyright on that name that cart used. i remember the first IRL show in Disney they called the Indycars championship cars.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Sure they were. They were dirt cars on the championship circuit, hence the name Dirt Champ Cars. They were that way until 1971 if I remember correctly. I still call them that. I wish dirt was part of a "Championship Circuit" today.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

I think they were still called Championship dirt cars well after the 1971 separation. IIRC they changed it in the early or mid 80's when USAC made some champ dirt races like Indy, Duquoin, and Springfield count toward the "Gold Crown Championship" which also included the Indy 500. The remaining champ dirt races were then named the "Silver Crown" division. After a while the 500 was the only Gold Crown race left. Eventually Gold Crown went away after a few years and that just left Silver Crown.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mark Alderson had a lead in the Gold Crown points one year and needed a ride at the 500 to secure the championship and couldn't find one.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
My understanding is that the IRL owns all intellectual rights of the former CCWS. I would therefore expect that they own the term champ car which is just a contraction of the term "Championship Car."

USAC owning it would serve no purpose anyway. Around the world, Indycars not used at Indianapolis are known as Champ Cars. Start throwing the term Champ Car around for the Silver Crown class (which never were Champ Cars) and you will confuse one hell of a lot of people.

As anyone with even the slightest knowledge of racing will tell you, "champ car" has been a very common term for Indy cars (and champ dirt cars) throughout history. (Please reference the text below as an example). It wasn't until CART started "throwing around" the term champ car, that the average joe fan (such as yourself) became confused. Just one of thousands of moronic decisions made by the now defunct formula 1 feeder series. Don't fret aussie, we are always glad to educate you. I'll bet Graham Rahal and the gang are glad that nightmare is over! :rolling
David.

Former Indy car owner John Zink Jr. dies at 75
INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Former car owner John Zink Jr., whose 13 champ car victories included the 1955 Indianapolis 500 with driver Bob Sweikert and the 1956 Indy race with Pat Flaherty, has died at 75.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by SpfldMile:
Sure they were. They were dirt cars on the championship circuit, hence the name Dirt Champ Cars. They were that way until 1971 if I remember correctly. I still call them that. I wish dirt was part of a "Championship Circuit" today.

What was the year that A.J. led most of the Milwaukee race in a "Dirt Car" . He was killing all of those new fangled rear engine things, until his tires wore down, and then I think Ward won, and I believe Foyt finished 2nd in a Dirt Car!

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by Al Consoli:
What was the year that A.J. led most of the Milwaukee race in a "Dirt Car" . He was killing all of those new fangled rear engine things, until his tires wore down, and then I think Ward won, and I believe Foyt finished 2nd in a Dirt Car!

'64? '65?

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
USAC owning it would serve no purpose anyway. Around the world, Indycars not used at Indianapolis are known as Champ Cars. Start throwing the term Champ Car around for the Silver Crown class (which never were Champ Cars) and you will confuse one hell of a lot of people.

In a friendly effort to further educate you, please find below, a paragraph from a great article by automotive historian Dean Case. I've included the link to the entire article, if you actually want to know what you're talking about. :thumb
David.

"In the two decades since WWII, the engine of choice at Indy, and for all of AAA/USAC "Champ Car" (Note: The terms "Champ Car", "Indycar", and "Big Car" have all been used somewhat interchangeably to describe the cars that raced at the Indianapolis 500."

http://www.allamericanracers.com/dino/case.html

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

I knew that!!:rolling You did say anyone with the "slightest knowledge" would.:D

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

In 1971 the dirt cars, until then part of the "Championship Trail", were called the National Dirt Car Championship. In 1981 that changed to the Silver Crown division.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by Dwight Clock:
In 1971 the dirt cars, until then part of the "Championship Trail", were called the National Dirt Car Championship. In 1981 that changed to the Silver Crown division.

I knew you had the years, Dwight. Do you know what years that the Gold Crown existed? I know the 500 was part of the Gold Crown, and for awhile it was just the 500 that was the Gold Crown.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
My understanding is that the IRL owns all intellectual rights of the former CCWS. I would therefore expect that they own the term champ car which is just a contraction of the term "Championship Car."

"intellectual rights" of the defunct series -now thats funny

I bet Tony G. would give the name back to USAC if the right person asked for it.:usacfan

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

My partial memory is probably going to get me in trouble here. I think I remember a specfic term being used for the three 500 mile races; Indy, Ontario and, Pocono(???). Was that Gold Crown or was it something else, or have I just lost it?

Frank Daigh

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by dirtnonwingfan:
My partial memory is probably going to get me in trouble here. I think I remember a specfic term being used for the three 500 mile races; Indy, Ontario and, Pocono(???). Was that Gold Crown or was it something else, or have I just lost it?

Frank Daigh

Triple Crown is what you're looking for. Gold Crown was the Indy 500 and selected traditional dirt races.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by Ovalmeister:
In a friendly effort to further educate you, please find below, a paragraph from a great article by automotive historian Dean Case. I've included the link to the entire article, if you actually want to know what you're talking about. :thumb
David.

"In the two decades since WWII, the engine of choice at Indy, and for all of AAA/USAC "Champ Car" (Note: The terms "Champ Car", "Indycar", and "Big Car" have all been used somewhat interchangeably to describe the cars that raced at the Indianapolis 500."

http://www.allamericanracers.com/dino/case.html

I didn't click the link, but I am curious when the Big/Champ cars and sprint cars became different?

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Sorry to argue Aussie, but those cars weren't invented in 1971. They had a long and storied history as champ cars on the dirt. Before the late 50's the same cars ran on pavement such as Indy and Milwaukee. After it became necessary to use different cars, they became championship dirt cars because the races still counted towards the championship.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
From USAC's website:
These cars formed the backbone of the American National Championship for years and the talent pool generated since the inception of the Silver Crown Series in 1971 is immense.

In 1971, The Silver Crown series was formed as a dirt only series. It was not the "national championship." Therefore they weren't "Champ Cars"

Dude, pull it together. :rolling:rolling
You're just gonna have to trust us on this one, "Champ Car" existed waaaaay before "CART" stole it. :rolling:rolling
David.

once again, in case you missed it:
Former Indy car owner John Zink Jr. dies at 75
INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Former car owner John Zink Jr., whose 13 champ car victories included the 1955 Indianapolis 500 with driver Bob Sweikert and the 1956 Indy race with Pat Flaherty, has died at 75.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Maybe we should feel sorry for the "Aussie". He never had the chance to see driver`s like Sheldon Kinser, Leland McSpadden, Shuman, and hundreds of others haul it in on the Indy Mile, Springfield or DuQuoin. Real "Champ" cars don`t race in parking lot`s, alleys, cities or at airports ! ! ! :O:

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

So if Aussie's logic holds true...that silver crown cars were never champ cars because they weren't included in the championship, then those "sprint" cars that ran a 400-lapper really aren't sprint cars after all since 400 laps is not a sprint.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
You are still missing my point. I do not deny that before 1971 they were called Champ Cars (and therefore John Zink Jnr did win 13 Champ Car races). I state that post 1971 the silver crown cars were/are not champ cars as they are/were not used in the National Championship as there were no dirt races. (check out www.champcarstats.com for proof of no dirt in 1971 onwards). Silver Crown was started as a dirt only series. That distanced itself from the National Championship and therefore the cars used in the Silver Crown could not be Champ Cars.

check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...r_Racing#Names

While you are correct that from 1971 the dirt cars were not part of the National Championship you are incorrect in calling them Silver Crown cars beginning in 1971. The term Silver Crown did not exist pertaining to these cars until 1981. You are trying to do what NASCAR does. Every time they get a new series sponsor they refer to all past champions as winners of the (fill in the blank) Cup. Don't try to rename history.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
You are still missing my point. I do not deny that before 1971 they were called Champ Cars (and therefore John Zink Jnr did win 13 Champ Car races). I state that post 1971 the silver crown cars were/are not champ cars as they are/were not used in the National Championship as there were no dirt races. (check out www.champcarstats.com for proof of no dirt in 1971 onwards). Silver Crown was started as a dirt only series. That distanced itself from the National Championship and therefore the cars used in the Silver Crown could not be Champ Cars.

check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...r_Racing#Names

We understand your point - and it is WRONG. Don't argue with David or Dwight or me. We were there - we lived it. I've been following this stuff for 54 racing seasons now. I'm not puffing my chest out, but I probably forgot more about this facet of racing than you'll ever know.

:idea:Why don't you just talk about your Aussie sporty cars and such? You seem to know about that. I don't know anything about that and don't care to.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan:
You are still missing my point. I do not deny that before 1971 they were called Champ Cars (and therefore John Zink Jnr did win 13 Champ Car races). I state that post 1971 the silver crown cars were/are not champ cars as they are/were not used in the National Championship as there were no dirt races. (check out www.champcarstats.com for proof of no dirt in 1971 onwards). Silver Crown was started as a dirt only series. That distanced itself from the National Championship and therefore the cars used in the Silver Crown could not be Champ Cars.

check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America...r_Racing#Names

Here's an excerpt from your Wikipedia reference:

"Due to the settlement, and the obvious lack of direct connection to the Indianapolis 500 any longer, CART decided to revert back to the former term. It rebranded itself as "Champ Car" and the machines were referred to as "Champ cars."

So if I understand your logic, just because they decide to "rebrand" themselves "champ cars", that null and voids all REAL champ cars from history? No other "champs cars", currently or previously, ever exist(ed)?
Well, I just "rebranded" my pick up truck a "champ car". I guess that trumps all previous CART cars, which means they never existed! :kookoo
David.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

[QUOTE=Seadog;34335]We understand your point - and it is WRONG. Don't argue with David or Dwight or me. We were there - we lived it. I've been following this stuff for 54 racing seasons now. I'm not puffing my chest out, but I probably forgot more about this facet of racing than you'll ever know.QUOTE]

AMEN brother! Testify! :respect:
David.

Re: Can USAC Copyright "Champ Car"?
 

[QUOTE=Ovalmeister;34338]

Originally Posted by Seadog:
We understand your point - and it is WRONG. Don't argue with David or Dwight or me. We were there - we lived it. I've been following this stuff for 54 racing seasons now. I'm not puffing my chest out, but I probably forgot more about this facet of racing than you'll ever know.QUOTE]

AMEN brother! Testify! :respect:
David.

Gotta look out for my buds!:thumb