kokomo DQ
 

why was hunter DQed

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Illegal Fuel

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Got to weigh in here cause there is more to it. Hunter's fuel was tested since he set quick time. After it failed, others who had purchased fuel at the same track Hunter did had theirs tested and it also failed. As Hunter was the only one "officially tested' he was the only one Dq'd.

All the fuel came from the same place. Likely a water problem but without further testing we will never know. The track where the fuel came from has been told about it.

Re: kokomo DQ
 

I feel his pain. 20 years ago next month, my car was DQed for illegal fuel after setting a NTR in qualifying. It turned out to be water contanimation but we were told to load up and prevented from competing in any more races that afternoon.

Rob Hoffman

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Originally Posted by Racerrob:
I feel his pain. 20 years ago next month, my car was DQed for illegal fuel after setting a NTR in qualifying. It turned out to be water contanimation but we were told to load up and prevented from competing in any more races that afternoon.

Rob Hoffman

Was that Rich Vogler at Terre Haute?

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Rich Vogler at Salem.

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Originally Posted by Racerrob:
Rich Vogler at Salem.

I think I remember that day. It was a warm and sunny Sunday. I was sitting in the stands and remember Rich, Emily and the kids walking back to their motor home with lawn chairs, cooler, etc. after the DQ.

That was a specific gravity test, right?

Re: kokomo DQ
 

It only takes once, and you'll be cking your fuel before you buy it, either with an alcohol hydrometer, or the simple water test, I don't run with the big boys, but I ck every barrel of fuel, or 5 gal I buy or borrow. Besides the DQ, it's the damage to the fuel system! Bob

Fuel can have enough moisture in it that it does not pass U.S.A.C.'s test but is still safe to run in a engine.
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Re: kokomo DQ
 

Originally Posted by Racerrob:
I feel his pain. 20 years ago next month, my car was DQed for illegal fuel after setting a NTR in qualifying. It turned out to be water contanimation but we were told to load up and prevented from competing in any more races that afternoon.

Rob Hoffman

Rob water makes the fuel illegel can you explane how please I hope I am not the only one who don;t understand that lol ps congrads on the burgh win Jim Goerges:8:

Re: kokomo DQ
 

I'll give it a try, and not get too scientific. The specific gravity of water is 1. 0. Alcohol, when I first started buying it, for racing purposes, was sold by it's water content, ie, 76%, 82%, 96%, 98% AND 99.9%, or as it was known then, hospital grade. Alcohol's main use , so I've been told, is to dry propane, and most of what is left, is used for other purposes, such as racing. Alcohol abosrbs water, and also nitromethane, which is heavier, just as water is, so when the specific gravity, gets greater than it's normal range, it is considered illegal, but it may only be water, but to test it in a lab, takes time, they just call it illegal, and toss you for the night. It is usually a good practice, as in the case Sunday night, to ck all of those that bought fuel from the same source, then at least everyone is comfortable with the decision. We currently use a nitromethane hydrometer, and I haven't been privy to it's workings, I don't know if it can tell the difference or not, but it is marked off the same as mine, and when checked, we usually agree on the SG. GoKarts used to use a pump around system, where everyone used out of the same barrel, your tank was dry til you went on track, and you got your fill, as you went on track, so everyone drank at the same trough. To test using the water test, you use equal amounts of water, and the contestants fuel, mix them in a clear glass jar, and if it's good, the mixture will cloud up as it is shaken, then clear up almost instantly, the longer it takes to clear the more reason to believe it has something else in it, including just too much water, and upper lube usually won't chg it much. Bob

Re: kokomo DQ
 

One of my jobs as an officiail was to check fuel with one of those barometer deals. There were 2 tubes yu stuck in the Barometer then gently filled with fuel. Let it sit on a white piece of paper so it could settle. Then check both one will be the temp of the fuel the other will be specific gravity of the fuel. Then you go to your list, look up the temp then scan straight a cross to the gravity number and you have you reading. Now go to the chart and it will tell you if it's legal. Why the white paper, while your waiting you can look down the tube to see if the fuel is clear or not, Methanol is clear like water. I took some Methanol home put on some rubber gloves and did some testing of my own. %5 Nitro will throw the hydrometer right out of the barometer tube. There are some "Punky" things you can add but you can smell them when the cars fire up. Stand by the exit of the track and smell as they come off the track. Another thing I did was check the tracks fuel supply so I had something to go by. I've been to 3 USAC races this year, not impressed. When I helped officiatte at a Tournament race I was handed the job of fuel checking because I seemed the best choice or maybe dumbest lol. God Bless.

Re: kokomo DQ
 

OK, I forgot to tell you, what the SG of alcohol is, if you were wondering, the industry std for it is .79, which I've found to be good stuff, but if I had my druther's, I'd druther it be closer to .76, lighter means a hotter burn, any thing much lower than that, probably has some sort of "inhancer" in it, which will also get ya tossed for the evening, so, what's this tell ya, be carefull where you buy your fuel, and if nothing else, either buy yourself a hydrometer, or use the water test, I have an electronic tester also, but it's so darned sensitive, I'm almost afraid to break it out, and, if not calibrated correctly, it isn't the last word either, the only real test is to have a lab test it, I'm sure Abby, on NCIS could be counted on to break it down for you! Good luck! Bob

MeOH absorbs nitromethane if you add it maybe ;-). I'm not so sure it would show up otherwise, unless it was used as a solvent to make or clean the container you're storing it in. It was most likely water contamination and very little at that. It doesn't take much(I've heard as little as a cup in a drum) to render it useless as a fuel.
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Re: kokomo DQ
 

Really, the 82% used to be the preferred batch, that water enchanced the power produced, just like adding it externally, and that would be 18% water, in a gallon of alky. I think something around 96% is more of a std today, you can almost look at it, and see the water in it, I've ck'd some that was almost pee colored, but smelled sweet, almost like some weak cider, and was real sticky as it evaporated on your fingers, bunch of guys got some of it at a track up around Indy, a few years back. Bob

I think VP claims to have 99.95% pure MeOH. Obviously this changes shortly after you unseal the container. Did USAC take a sample to have tested? It would be interesting to see what the contents are. I'm sure a university in the area would have a GC or GC-MS to run the sample through.
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Re: kokomo DQ
 

Mike Devin refered me to some University out in the South West and some guy named Charles. He did alcohol testing and could tell what was in the fuel. Also I had contatcted VP about some alcohol they were getting ready to release. They told me it wouldn't pass the water test and when I asked why I never heard back. Any ideas?

Re: kokomo DQ
 

There might be a small amount of some type of lubricant added since alcohol has no lubricating properties like petroleum-based fuel? Or maybe it's their little secret! Not so sure it's a good idea to be marketing a fuel that won't pass the water test since it appears that many tracks use this as a basis for what is "legal".

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Originally Posted by TQ29m:
I'll give it a try, and not get too scientific. The specific gravity of water is 1. 0. Alcohol, when I first started buying it, for racing purposes, was sold by it's water content, ie, 76%, 82%, 96%, 98% AND 99.9%, or as it was known then, hospital grade. Alcohol's main use , so I've been told, is to dry propane, and most of what is left, is used for other purposes, such as racing. Alcohol abosrbs water, and also nitromethane, which is heavier, just as water is, so when the specific gravity, gets greater than it's normal range, it is considered illegal, but it may only be water, but to test it in a lab, takes time, they just call it illegal, and toss you for the night. It is usually a good practice, as in the case Sunday night, to ck all of those that bought fuel from the same source, then at least everyone is comfortable with the decision. We currently use a nitromethane hydrometer, and I haven't been privy to it's workings, I don't know if it can tell the difference or not, but it is marked off the same as mine, and when checked, we usually agree on the SG. GoKarts used to use a pump around system, where everyone used out of the same barrel, your tank was dry til you went on track, and you got your fill, as you went on track, so everyone drank at the same trough. To test using the water test, you use equal amounts of water, and the contestants fuel, mix them in a clear glass jar, and if it's good, the mixture will cloud up as it is shaken, then clear up almost instantly, the longer it takes to clear the more reason to believe it has something else in it, including just too much water, and upper lube usually won't chg it much. Bob

Thanks so much for explaining bout the fuel Jimmy :8:

Re: kokomo DQ
 

Originally Posted by CTtoPA:
There might be a small amount of some type of lubricant added since alcohol has no lubricating properties like petroleum-based fuel? Or maybe it's their little secret! Not so sure it's a good idea to be marketing a fuel that won't pass the water test since it appears that many tracks use this as a basis for what is "legal".

we use only powermist meth and never had a bad batch, in karts, micros or midgets.
they do make a mix called "holeshot" that has a red color and i believe will pass water but not hydrometer.
i was taught to only mix about 2oz of water to 8 oz of a fuel sample with the water test and it should clear out quickly. i have also seen people get tossed supplying a sample that was siphoned out using a dirty hose....finally going in the tank with the fuel sample bottle and getting the sample direct....and it passed.
i was also taught that there are three things to look for when doing a fuel test....color, smell and the ability to absorb water....if you use a top lube, it colors the fuel....yer done before you start....it also (most times) wont pass the water test. as far as smell, powermist has a VERY strong smell but it isnt abnormal....not like if you have nitro mixed in ;)
another way to tell if there is stuff mixed into the fuel is to watch the flame from the headers....blue and orange is ok....green, purple and red isnt ;)
i also learned a LONG time ago.....there isnt a fuel test out there that can be performed in the field that has the ability to find a real good, professionally done mix. as long as the "chemist" knows the tests that are gonna be done, he can mix the goodies to give you the edge you are looking for AND make the tech guy happy....but it does come with a price!
IMO....fuel and tires are the easiest places to start if you wanna go into the "grey area"

Re: kokomo DQ
 

If the rules state Methanol Fuel Only, must pass Specific Gravity .795 at whatever temp it was. Thats the rule I had to go by, I had a few racers come to me and ask would you test my fuel before racing started. If it was ok I'd tell them "It's ok now". So Racers, if you bring your own fule have it checked by the officials first then race if it passes. If not get some fuel that is good to go. Keep all fuel cans sealed as tight as possible to keep moisture out. Ok See ya when the dirt flies gang

Re: kokomo DQ
 

I was at the race and noticed a strong smell like a bean oil or klotz type of smell when the sprint cars were on the track. Couldn't pinpoint who it was from the stands obviously.