Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I want to start out by saying I had a great time racing at the Legendary Lawrenceburg Speedway Saturday night! The track was in great shape and was fast.

I do however have an issue with the original draw. I do like using the bingo ball mixer. That is fair. The unfair part is a low number should put you towards the front of a heat race and not towards the back. This is not the case with the way the draw is currently done

I drew the 6th lowest number of everyone Saturday night and should have started outside the front row of the 2nd heat with there being 4 heat races. Instead I started 6th in the first heat.

This is not right! You are going by the luck of the draw and trying to get a low number and then you penalize the guy when he does.

The American Sprint Car Tour will put the lowest pill on the pole of the first heat and the second lowest on the pole of the 2nd heat and so on.

I was told by the track official that my way and our ASCT way would not make a difference but it makes a huge difference!!

Please take a look at this and make a change for the fairness of everyone.

Thanks,

J.T. Stapp:15:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Seriously?

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I've not heard of a track doing it the way Lawrenceburg does it.

The problem with the pill draw method at any track is that it's like going to a casino. How lucky or unlucky am I today?

I've brought this up on here before, but the drivers who finish in the first scheduled heat races as opposed to the later heat races also have an advantage where they start in either the feature or semi. For example, we raced a pill draw event a few years ago where we were tied with the same amount of points as a few other teams. The guy who had the same amount of points in the first heat race started on the feature pole and the guys in the last heat race with the same amount of points had to race the semi, and then hopefully transfer, but then they must start near the back.

Seems to me that Sandy Lowe came up with a solution to all the ties in points which eliminate two or more teams with the same number of points ending up in extreme places.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I agree,

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

This thread makes my head hurt. :17:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

What if you went to Lawrenceburg Speedway hoping to pull a higher number, instead of a lower number? Do you think that would help?

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

WOW.

The luck of the draw doesn't fall your way, so you want the track to change their procedures just for you?

Well, aren't you just the special one!!

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I'd get a dished hood. It will make you go faster,and you can then slice thru traffic...........:2::2::2::2:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Whether a low pill draw or a high pill draw places you in the back of a heat, who cares? It's all in the LUCK of the draw, anyway, and as long as every driver is treated the same way by any draw, the way the draw is administered becomes a moot point.

Don't like the draw? Race elsewhere.

Maybe a qualifying show at a track where the track dries out as qualifying progresses and the track slows down by 3/4 of a second towards the end of qualifying, and your pill draw for qualifying forces you to make your attempt late when you have no chance of setting a quick time....someone will always get affected by a pill draw!

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I also have a hard time believing that 12 or more cars could tie in passing points in order to put one car on the pole and another in the semi. If they inverted six, and transferred 16, which is normal, that would be how many it would take. Maybe a little bit of exaggeration there?

I liked the way they did it at Vernon for the no way oyt. They group qualifies, that way if the track slows down over the course of quals, at least everyone in your heat had the same conditions.
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Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

JT,

I apologize if I didn't make myself clear when you drew your pill on Saturday.

I understand a draw of 10 is different than a draw of 60. But... as long as you use the same system every week when you pull your pill it does not make any difference. A '10' does not mean 10, it means you will start in one of the first heats. A '60' does not mean 60, but you will start in one of the later heats.

When you pull your pill you should have a pretty good idea if you are in an early heat, the middle heat, or a late heat.

I have been working at Lawrenceburg Speedway for 8 years or so and as long as I have been around they have done it that way. I've worked at Bloomington Speedway even longer and they also do their lineups this way. (BTW they did their lineups this way long before I came along).

Sandy

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

It's happened several times. A USAC midget race a couple of years ago at Kokomo, for example. It happened at a POWRi race at Macon but the result was a bit different. Several were tied for the same number of points. The guy who raced in the first heat was on the feature pole and the other guys started way back.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Don,

You are right. If you have a program with 5 or more heats and the difference in finishing points is a multiple of the amount of points you earn for improving your position there is a good probability for ties. (Example: 1.5 points for every position improved, 3 point difference for every finish position = lots of ties)

Sandy

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

So exaggerating a little in the first post, I guess...

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Both Kunz cars started dead last in their respective heats.

Let see, One of them Won the Feature and got the GOOD LUCK of the draw on getting the outside pole.

Not saying you don't have a view, that it should be looked at or not.

Chuck, who appreciated you coming down and racing!

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I know this is gonna make my head hurt, and Sandy has been dong this longer than anyone I know, so I Don't Question, but in simple terms, here's how it goes down, I think. Say you draw a 10, that doesn't mean anything, till everyone else has drawn, then, if no one drew 1 thru 9, you start on the pole of the first heat, same way with the rest of the draw, the numbers that aren't drawn don't count, only the one's that are, so you could draw a 21, and still start in the first heat. Same on back. That's the way it usually works, anyway. Some guys can't qualify, and they are happy with the draw, I like to qualify, gives me another turn at the track conditions, but, it also wears out the track, and hold up the show, and if you're looking at 4 or 5 divisions, and only one qualifys, it does get kinda boring, if you came to watch the "other" division. My .02! Bob

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Just a generalization here...Good drivers always find a way to win. If they ***** about a track being one lane, just be happy you're on dirt, and that maybe next week it'll be better...or hey...maybe...just maybe...you'll have to find your way around the guy ahead of you, by cleanly making an actual PASS.
That's why fans go to races, and that's why drivers race. Just my humble opinion...but as Sandy mentioned...its the same for every driver...every night at any track.

What if you flip and ruin your car (and your night) in your heat because you hit the wall or a tire or maybe another driver? Should they take away walls, tires, and other drivers because it ruined your night? Sure that's an exagerration...but it puts things in perspective. I'm a fan of the "just shut up and race" slogan. Again, JMO.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I know it's all luck of the draw but, I agree that the draw should be staggered. lowest number on pole of 1st heat, 2nd lowest # on pole of 2nd heat etc. In the big scheme of things, I guess it doesn't matter but, I too, think you should be rewarded for drawing a lower number...it really wouldn't affect us because Brad always draws terrible numbers anyway! :3:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

If it was up to me, i'd start all 8 cars on the front row, that would be cool!!:2:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

At Lawrenceburg the draw is not as big of an issue as it is at other tracks due to the fact that it is big enough where if you are fast you can pass and can get to the front, and if you are not fast you are going to go backwards. The top 2 also redraw, so if you start in the back you can get to 2nd and still have a shot to start in the front. At places like Bloomington and Gas City where its tight and often one groove heat race time, unless the track is perfect and not overly heavy or overly slick, you are a lot more dependant on the luck of the draw. It would be nice if someone could come up with a way to even things out a little bit, whether be draw for heat races and include some passing points or qualify. The No way Out 40 format was pretty cool. I like the group qualifying/hot laps at Kokomo, but even that has negatives because the first group is pretty handicapped, but usually groups 2 and on are pretty good, but I still think its better than a blind draw. In the end the draw is going to favor some and hinder some, but Ithink it is possible to improve things. I understand a lot of tracks cannot group qualify due to not having transponders

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

that's an x drag racer for ya.........:5::5:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

:3: Hahaha!!!:5:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Sound's like there needs to be more throttle travel :6:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

How many tow trucks do you have at that place??:18:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

At least there IS a draw. I've ran a track before where you don't qualify at all. The track promoter puts you in whichever heat he wants and you start where ever he feels like having you start. As long as the draw is the same for everyone I don't have a problem with they way Lawrenceburg does it. I do appreciate how the guy started out the topic with saying how much fun he had. I think he was just looking for clarification rather than complaining any ways. JMO

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

That should make for an interesting view in turn 1. :2:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I work at two race tracks here in central Indiana, one that sets lineups from the pill draw and one that group qualifies, there are advantages to both. The track I work at like Lawrenceburg, Bloomington and most other tracks that lineup this way, the lineups are not set until every driver has drawn or the draw is closed. The reason for this is because we do the lineups straight up, meaning the person with the lowest number starts on the pole of the first heat, the next number starts outside of him, the next number starts inside row two and so on so fourth. The advantage to this is a person who draws a 60 isn't necessarily going to start in the back. Instead it depends on how everyone else draws. I believe a driver can not blame the pill draw for their entire night. The draw only sets up the heat races, once you get onto the race track you have to earn your spot in the feature. A driver should not depend on a "good draw," to make the show. Everyone has equal opportunity to race in, if you can not pass cars you do not deserve to be in the show. In my opinion ASCS has the best race format. You draw to set up a qualifying race, then from passing points and finish order it sets up the heat races. Once again from passing points and finish order it sets up the semi and main event. Either way you have to run good and pass cars. The fans are there to see good racing, not follow the leader that is determined by the draw, well unless your at a wing race. But the point to my post is if you want to make the race, race your way into it. Don't get upset because you had to start towards the back and couldn't pass anyone. No matter how you set up a race someone has to start in the back its what you do after the green flag drops that counts.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Mr. Stapp, Your performance would have probably been the same whether you started in the front or back. Bottom Line. Secondly, I do not believe telling a race track how to operate is good for your scheduling opportunities with the race series you are co-promoting. Hopefully the first time someone voices their opinion about your series you handle it in a light hearted way like Dave Rudisell has. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and that was mine. The draw format that Lawrenceburg uses has worked for years with little or no complaints. They did not move you to the back of the heat just because you are JT Stapp, and you were a lapped car at Vernon and got paid for a top ten and ran to the bank without admitting it was incorrect. They did it because it is fair to all of the racers!! As Chuck said, Darland and Clarke did not have any issues getting to the front of their respective races. Hopefully you come back to Lawrenceburg and don't let the pill draw keep you away.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

As a fellow racer at Lawrenceburg I feel I can offer another driver's perspective. Am I a huge fan of the draw? No, I can't say that I am. (Unless it falls my way then I'm all for it but, lets be honest, who isn't?) But it IS a fair way to do it. Does it mean that sometimes people get bad draws? Sure. But we all get them and take them as it comes. And we pray we pull better next time. Gas City does it the exact same way and, to be honest, it is more fair than putting low numbers up front because then it truely becomes more luck of your pill as well as how many cars draw in front of you. The other method of draw ALWAYS gives 1-5 pole, 6-10 second, 11-15 third, and so on. At least with this method, my 60 pill draw put me outside front row. Yet I still finished third to drivers who started behind me. While I cannot say I'm a huge fan of it, I stand behind the draw and the way it is done. Lawrenceburg did their job in making a racey track. That is all they can do. Well done all around: Track prep, officials, and drivers. It's always a pleasure racing down at The Burg.

Andrew Elson

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Well Dave ,it looks like you are going to have to widen the track. :14: :5:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I do not understand. The pill that you draw is a random value, of which you were given. The driver had nothing to do with the number he recieved nor can he change the outcome in anyway. As long as a procedure for the heat race setup is established before the first pill is drawn, how can anything be any more or any less fair?

If the setup for the heats claimed that the highest number drawn started on the pole and I drew a number 1, I would be mad that I wasn't racing at "blank" track that scored that pill as inside front row, but I see know way in rationalizing that thought. As I said, I don't understand the argument, can someone fill me in on what I am not seeing?

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Well I guess he did continue to go ahead and race in the program saturday night after the pill draw which is good.Unlike a so called champion from another series last year at lawrenceburg did not like his pill draw then tried to enter there other car and use his pill draw then threw a fit when that was not allowed and loaded both cars up this driver is what we call worthless in my book was glad to see damion prove them all wrong in driving to the front in that feature last year.Plus what chuck posted earlier on this topic that both Kunz cars drew in the back of there heats and still buckled up and went racing and Darland won the feature to.A lot of these drivers should take a good long look in the mirror and see how drivers like Darland and Coon's to name a couple conduct themselves both on and off the track.I appreciate that I am able to watch a few drivers that still have some manners and respect for sprint car racing.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I wasn't implying his view is right or wrong, Just wondering why, If he was treated the same as everyone else that there is a problem?

I pointed out that the track was good and wide and able to pass on as evidenced by both kunz cars coming from the tail. Babb in the consi passed a bunch of cars and Windom came from 14th to 4th in the feature.

Ive seen low budget teams start near the tail of features and finish top five, Ive seen teams start 14th in a USAC show and WIN.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

They probably saw what car you were in and said no way can we start him up front..lol but really everyone drew just like you did.. Not sure if you think your special cause from what i have seen you can only cherry pick in the steel block shows.. So if you had been on the front row there would have been a pile up in turn 1. just like when you started mid pack of the b main and cause a chain reaction and Moffett flipped. Why would you take that car and steel block to the burg is my question? Too fast of a track for the car you was in and probably to fast for you to handle JT... Phil Heinz:14:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I'm not sure what happened, but TQ97's post brought up some valid points. J.T. raced with a TQ organization that used the same procedure. He raced with them for a long time. Now, all of the sudden, it's an issue. I'm not sure I understand.

It's called "luck of the draw". No matter how you do a draw, you're not increasing your chances. You have the same odds of drawing out a 60, as opposed to your 6, period! Maybe some just don't think things through before posting.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

:16 How about if you took the number drawn which falls exactly in the middle and made that car be the 5th car in the third heat and then took all the two digit numbers and combined them, i.e. #17 would become #8, except for 2 digit numbers ending in 0 which would, of course, be divided by 5, thus creating......umm.......uh oh.......I'm kinda lost here. I'll work on this and get back to you, but probably not in time to be useful this season. :11: :14: :11:

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

No matter what you do, you are going to make someone upset. The current draw system works, and it's equal for everyone. I would leave it as is.

A good friend of mine always says,"If you can't run with the big dogs, stay home".

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

Dumbest post ever.

The ONLY point of the pill draw is to randomize the starting grid for the heats. Whatever "formula" the track uses to turn the pill draw "order" into a lineup sheet is immaterial as long as it is done the same way each week.

Nobody "wins" the pill draw. It is what it is.

Re: Lawrenceburg draw needs a change
 

I have read your post and all the other posts, I have thought about how to respond for 3 days now, and this is all i can come up with
:15::14::17::15::34:

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

And one more thing, I went to McDonalds today for my $1 sweet tea, when i drove away it was completly full of ice and the tea was gone in 3 sips........The tea was great though. The troubles we all have to deal with daily are absolutely ridiculous!!!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iQ2YNWhh08...s/s400/Day+in+
See you all Saturday!! Dave:)