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dished Midget Hoods
Several of the midgets at the Chili Bowl had the "dished" hoods :13:. What sanctioning bodies are allowing this latest deal? If it's allowed, here is one more example of piling on more expense for midget owners that is not needed. :7:
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Re: dished Midget Hoods
air is "free" and sooner or later you're going to need a new hood so buy a dished one or whatever...... before it was hoods with big scoops for air even tho half the ones i have saw didn't have the opening cut out....lol most people will buy it because everyone else has one
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Most midgets DON"T have one.
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I HATE dished hoods on sprints & midgets when the number is in the bottom of the dish. It makes it very hard to line cars up under caution when you can't tell what the car number is until you can see the number on the tail.
Here are two examples from Dave Merritt Photo's. In the first one you can see the number clearly. http://www.pbase.com/pitpass/image/115129724 http://www.pbase.com/pitpass/image/115129710 |
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I gotta be honest, and all due respect to Don - but of all the issues we have in midget racing right now that are a detriment, a dished nose piece has to be the least of our worries. I am not really sure that this will make the difference on whether you win or not on your average Saturday night race.
Now if you told me I had to have one, that might be an issue - though I'm not sure if it would be the $$ or the fact I can be a non conformist! ;) |
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Call it petty if you like, but the dished hood is just one small piece of the puzzle of the "midget money game" that owners have been chasing for an eternity. First of all, what advantage does anyone gain after everyone buys one??? I don't get it. Once everyone has one or midget A part or Midget B part, everybody ends up equal and in the meantime spending money on parts that aren't needed. Are the fans screaming for dished hoods??? If not, then maybe you shoud listen to what the fans are saying or not saying instead of guys dreaming up more ways to push the costs of midget racing to another level.
The dished hood amounts to a built in camoflouged wing. If you want winged midget racing, put wings on the car and be done with it. |
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Does USAC allow the dished hoods? If they do I have to laugh. When the USAC sprints ran at Lake Ozark Speedway a few years ago a buddy of mine decided to pull his wing off and try it. He had a brand new 3 race old car with all the latest safety equipment and USAC officials nitpicked the car to death before he could run. We had to cut 2 inches off the sunvisor, tape a shop rag on the steering wheel to represent a pad, and double the amount of rollbar padding already on the car.
The funniest thing was what we had to do to the dished nose/hood he had. We had to stuff the dish full of newspaper then duct tape a big piece of cardboard over it to make it flat. If they now allow dished hoods i find it funny. We had no problem with adhering to the body rules that night, but we were amazed at how silly it is to require a steering wheel pad in the days of full face helmets and Hans devices. O.K. maybe it's not silly to mandate the pad but for an official to recommend taping a shop towel on the wheel then passing it thru inspection. COME ON...REALLY????? I'm going to play both sides of the fence here. I agree with rmr6nm that dished hoods are a drop in the bucket regarding the expense but ultimately i am going to have to agree with Don that it just becomes one more thing people are going to buy to feel like they are back on a level playing field. 40 grand in a motor versus 12 grand, 3 grand in shocks versus $130 standard aluminu shocks, titanium, carbon fiber, new tires all night long, weather stations, engine heaters, shock dynos, bar dynos, weight jackers, dished hoods, blah blah blah blah, MAKE IT STOP!!!! |
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Wasn't there some "controversy" in World of Outlaws about a hood that Karl Kinser ran on Steve's Car? Wasn't there some comment about if Karl/STeve won everyone else would copy?
I know it is a little off topic but it jogged a memory |
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Do you HAVE to buy one??????
I don't think so........ |
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Don, would you rather see midgets resemble stick figure drawings?
You always bring up cost..if you think a dished nose is so essential to keep up with everyone and you couldn't afford to buy one, why don't you just buy the material(about $10 worth of aluminum), and make one in your shop? |
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Since when did a dish nose cost more then a flat one. Thats new to me. Powder coat cost more then paint. Alluminum wheels cost more then steel. Steel shocks are cheaper too. Should we not allow any of these things. No matter how you look at it it is a race car and it,s gonna cost money
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Re: dished Midget Hoods
Originally Posted by DonMoore10: Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan: |
Re: Dished Midget Hoods
I am totally amazed once again at the mindset of almost all of the posters in this thread falling into the same trap that has lead to the decline of midget racing over the past few years. Reading these posts is clear proof that almost all of you "don't get it."
My question I posed has still not been answered. Did the midget race car fans petition the sanctioning bodies that they wanted these hoods, more cubic inches for certain engines, titanium parts, cage panels etc etc? If not, then why are we doing it?? This is real simple IOWheelers and at the heart of the survival of midget racing. A few years ago, I did some research on the car counts of a very well known not for profit midget org. ( not USAC) I documented it from 1999 on. The research showed and proved that this club was about to head for the graveyard if they didn't do something about it. Just reporting the facts on here. Facts don't lie, people. Right after I posted the decline in car count facts, I was blasted into orbit by a race official from that group. Now this person was so close to the situation the person couldn't see the forest for the trees. My prediction came true and now this club is scrambling to survive. Wakeup people and get real. Yes, I can well afford one of the dished hoods. DUH. It's the direction behind the idea that is frightening, actually beyond freightening, it's reality right now. We are at a very critical turning point in midget racing. There are going to be some showdowns coming up soon and time will tell where the midget community is headed. Buying a dished hood may not be an issue at the end of this season if you have very few or no races. We will see. |
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:):) I do agree with don on a lot of his opinions. On this one about the dished hood I have a different perspective. We swithched to the dished hood last year midseason after getting a new motor for our sprint car. Seems the older style nose piece on our sprint car was causing a lot of air cavation under the nose and were having a heating problem. One advantage of the dished hood is that it allows you to focus the airflow directly into the radiator of a sprint car. However alot if not most midgets still utalize a lay down radiatior so I am unsure of the advantage of running a dished nose. Just my observation.
Chad Branson #71 |
Re: dished Midget Hoods
Putting a dished (a coverup for a built in wing ) hood on my midgets would be impossible unless I spent a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to reconfigure under the hood as Chad Branson pointed out.... or buy new frames/cars $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that would allow the new configuration.
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I'm just a bit curious as to how one is supposed to stop people from innovating? Exactly how do you write a rule book that takes every single possible element of a racecar into account? Then what happens when some clever racer comes up with a part that meets the rulebook but doesn't meet your thoughts of what a racecar should be. Should the deciding factor on whether to allow the part is if it costs more than $100? Haven't midgets historically been the place with the most innovation in the midget/sprint/silver crown car world?
Let's talk about dished nose pieces for example. How much dish is too much? Any? What if the winner has his nose crushed in by a rock? He may have started the race with negative dish but finished it with positive dish. Should he be dq'd? Let's say the dished hoods are disallowed. What if I decide to create another device of some sort whose sole intent is to create nose downforce and do it in such a way that it falls within the rules. Let's call it a belly pan. What it I then put it underneath my legal nosepiece. I have a legal nosepiece but I've now thought of something different. Wouldn't it just be less aggravating to you and the sanctioning body if you just shot me then? Who decides that some aspect of a car not covered in the rulebook is wrong? The dished hood came directly from wing cars. USAC already had a rule for how far above/below the downtubes for bodywork could be for the sprintcars. The dished noses fell within those measurements. Please explain to me what rationale the officials could use for disallowing someone's car when it was legal within the stated rules? Midget racing (and all racing in general) has multiple problems right now. The cost/return ratio is waay out of whack. I don't see the return part changing anytime soon so the cost has to be addressed. There's no way to reduce the costs without making some group unhappy. You should just make everyone unhappy and make midgets a spec series. Everything is identical. Hell, let's take it farther. Make the series just like Go Kart World. USAC provides the racecars and the drivers draw for which car they get. The problem in midget racing has very little to do with nosepieces. Fixing nosepieces is akin to pissing in the wind with all the other problems. Finding a way for the midgets to continue is a big, looming problem and I just don't see how addressing it by starting at the lower cost items is the solution. |
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Just one very small piece of the puzzle. You guys still don't understand that this is just one small representation of why we are where we are today. :15:
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Just MHO, but that goes back to the "Spirit and Intent" clause that used to be in the first paragraph of every racing organization I've ever belonged to, may even be in the Constitution, it doesn't stop innovation, but does encompass everthing that follows. I doubt the hood will make much of a difference in performance, but why raise so much heck over it, all people aren't Lemmings, maybe! Bob
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Here's something extremely novel. Let's be innovative and dream up ways to bring the cost down of fielding a midget.
I'm trying to also dream up ways of getting the point across here of this thread. Let's try this again: A dished hood is only one tiny, tiny, tiny tiny, tiny part of the issue here with midgets. T-I-N-Y. Guys, despite what you'd like to see happen with technology and innovation, the worst direction we could go right now is dreaming up one more item or one more penny to put on or spend on a midget. I think one of the main problems here in understanding the subject is that midget racing has gotten so far beyond reason that you people have no idea how far off the track it has gotten. Your concept of a midget team is Steve Lewis and all the disciples that have followed in his path. Go to a USAC national midget race and walk thru the pits or for that matter, just stand by the pit gate as all the haulers make their way into the pits. Take all that in and then remind yourself that they are racing for $2500 to win and the purse drops off dramically after that. Public schools are in big trouble in the state of Ohio, much like midget racing. The state legislature keeps dreaming up new mandated programs ( innovation, guys!!!) with no funding to go along with it. Yeah... Here are several new innovative programs that you must implement. Have a great time figuring out how you're going to pay for them. Using the reasoning I'm reading on here, you people probably think this is just fine. Try telling that to the school boards in Ohio that are over their heads in debt and no way out. No different in midget racing, guys.... but in midget racing we have people like Steve Lewis who have bottomless pockets and can keep spending for an eternity without feeling the pinch. That's what most of you perceive at this time of what midget racing is about. |
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Don, I totally agree with you, and I'm so damnd glad, that instead of buying a full midget, in 1991, I bought a TQ, that I thank myself everyday for that decision. I would have dearly loved to had a midget, but as I looked at what was then, just the beginning, of what is now, I thought Nah, I'll wait and see, I had several friends with midgets, and it would have been fun, but not for long, that's about the time things started spreading out across the country, some help came when the 16th track was put to use, but we were still running TQ's, not making big purses, but we didn't have to buy the wheel, or the hood of the day, to be able to keep up. GoKarts got the same way, there isn't much anymore that can be added, and still call it racing, you might just as well go to a Casino for the night, your odds would be better. I'm hoping John pulls some good car counts with the new series, and I never understood why, in the past, some track owner didn't say to himself, man, there's a nich that needs filled, I'm gonna invite them to run at my track! But, no one stepped up, and it's where it is today, but maybe that's about to change, lets hope so! Bob
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Re: dished Midget Hoods
Originally Posted by : My solution? Only allow cheaper motors. The easiest way to put it would be that you have to be able to buy it over the counter at any new car dealer. Preferably the motor was actually used in a production car. Mr Lewis could still go buy his brand new over the counter but you should also be able to jerk a used one out of a Neon in the junkyard and have it be the same basic motor. The motor would need to be homologated by the sanctioning body and only motors that came in 1000?/10000?/???? production cars would be allowed. The car manufacturers would still have a vested interest in promoting the sport and perhaps have an interest in putting money in. It would still be a bear to police because people could still put unobtanium rods in the thing. My response to that would be to put in an effective claimer rule. Yep, I can hear you howling. Yes, I just junked 5-6 figures worth of motors in your garage. Do I care? No. You know why? Because you too were part of the problem because you and the other midget owners have spent years chasing the Lewis' of the world like lemmings. You guys brought it on yourself so why should you be put in charge of fixing it? You honestly think you'll do a better job filling the hole back in than you did digging it? As I've said all along, the only way to fix this is through a lot of car owner's pain and rev limiters, tires and bodywork changes aren't going to make this patient all better. |
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First of all, please don't point fingers when you haven'y signed your name and told us what role you play in the midget community... fan or owner for example, thanks.
Secondly, maybe you've been hibernating in a cave somewhere, but anyone who has read this board consistently over the past many years and before that on another midget forum will tell you without a doubt that I have outlined sensible solutions to the problems of midget racing over and over and over and over and over again, thanks twice. Thirdly, I am not a disciple of the Steve Lewis/NASCAR midget hauler/big buck teams and I don't follow the USAC trail, thanks three times again. Your engine solution makes way too much sense for most of the people in the midget community to comprehend, thanks four times again! Most of them only want to hear about how much more they can out spend everybody else. Believe you me, if some rich owner, and that's about all we have left these days) thinks that dished hood is gonna get him to the front quicker, you'll see it at the next race, you can bet on it. That's the way the midget game is played today and that's why so many people have closed minds on here about how they percieve the sport. We will see where all of this is going in just a few short weeks!!! |
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Originally Posted by : Now that I've bagged on the things a bunch, I have to say that I love watching midget races. It seems like the only time I get to watch them is while waiting for the sprint car feature and you know what?, the midgets are often more entertaining that the sprints. Years ago when they were running the winter TV winged Slick 50 races at manzanita, they ran the midgets earlier in the day. I looked forward to traveling all across Robin Hood's Merry forest to watch the midgets run when I had nothing to do with them. If I'm spectating, give me midgets over sprints at Putnamville or the old Kokomo. With that, it saddens me to watch these things die. It's also getting boring to listen to people ***** about problems without offering solutions. Yes, I've read the solutions offered and a lot of them either don't make sense or just pick at the problem. I'm not normally a throw back kind of guy but it seems like these cars need to go back to the stone age to be saved. |
Re: dished Midget Hoods
I believe the dish hoods were developed to help the wing guys keep the front of the car balanced as they slid the top wing back. The air mass under the wing is increased and there is less resistance. So the air flowing under the wing doesn't stack up and it flows more freely allowing more pressure on top of the wing.
They also found out(What Bob East found out years before) that the incresed air flowing above the nose also pulled air through the radiator opening faster keeping that air from stacking up. Bob's cars do that as well and they cool better than most of the one piece hoods. Spike has adopted a version of the design as well. Personally, to me a dish without the front wing is just there for looks and cooling on a non wing car. The aero effect isn't that great, but the nose/hood combos with the sideboards closing off the downtubes.....that is a different story. |
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This may not be a very popular post but remember, it's just my humble opinion, so I'll say it anyway. I think the best thing that can happen to midget racing is to let it continue down the path it's on. Because if it does continue the way it is, midget racing will die. All the signs are there. Cancelling the (Terre Haute) Hut 100 due to low/no car count, relying on co-promotions to get a full field, dwindling car counts nationwide annually, etc...etc... You have to have your head buried pretty deep to deny it.
After midget racing dies and big money owners now have $60,000 boat anchors in their garages collecting dust, reinvent the sport. How do you reinvent the sport? By taking a few steps back, screwing your heads on straight, being realistic and aware of todays economic conditions/competiton for the entertainment dollar, and using a big dose of common sense. I really believe the only way for midget racing to survive (and to actually THRIVE) is to provide promotors with a car count of 50+ cars consistently. 70+ at the major events such as the (Terre Haute) Hut 100. What promotor wouldn't jump at that? The back gate alone would be a substancial jump in revenue. So would the butts in the stands. Then maybe an organization would have a legitimate leg to stand on when discussing better purses. (and the promotor wouldn't have to book 5 divisions to break even). So how could this be done? (OK, here comes the crazy talk). Produce midgets that cost $20,000 RACE READY starting 2 years from now. That gives current owners time to use up their stuff without taking a huge blow. And their rolling chassis would still be very usable after that. The midget builders would probably make even more money just due to sheer volume of sales, rather than relying on a select few like they do now. As RichC said, make available affordable motors. Get back to what made midget racing great...grass roots racing. Make the tires slightly less wide and slightly less soft. Make them last more than a hot lap session. YOU SHOULD NOT NEED AN INDY LIGHTS BUDGET TO WIN A MIDGET CHAMPIONSHIP!!! If the cars cost $20,000 race ready, the current big money owners could field 4-5 cars each. Then maybe they could justify those NASCAR haulers they use! And they would still win. Look at the IRL. Spec cars, spec motors, cost cutting measures and who wins the races? The same guys that did before, Penske and Ganassi. The cream always rises, no matter the cost. Go to www.minisprintracing.com and scroll down the left side of the page. You will see 41 (yes FORTY ONE) currently active mini sprint clubs. How many owners do you think that represents nationwide? Why do you think they are not midget owners? Mini sprints have boomed in the last 15 years or so. About the same timeframe midgets starting getting rediculously expensive. Coincidence? One other idea that people kind of cringe at. Phase out the specialty chassis. If a guy could run a car on dirt and pavement, the car counts would skyrocket. Look at the photos below. That's Mel Kenyon running on dirt and pavement....with the SAME CAR. Well, that's just plain crazy talk! lol. Did the racing suck when Mel and everyone else did that? I....don't.....think.....so. Now none of the ideas above are unique or earth altering, but the common sense may just be too much for some to handle. And please don't read into this as one of those "better back in the day" posts, because it isn't. It is a hard look at reality that really needs to happen if midgets are to survive. It would take guts and leadership and national cooperation to work. And therein lies the problem. Again, just my humble opinion. David. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...nchesterIN.jpg http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...LibertyINU.jpg |
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Yeah... Your post makes way too much common sense. Hardly anybody on earth will understand it and I'm being completely serious. For example, Just read through the posts on this thread and you'll understand why midget racing is in the state it is today. People cheering and craving for more expense. That's the mindset that is going down today. People have been programed that midget racing is the Steve Lewis/big buck way to do it. Just keep piling on the expenses. How many times have I been told on here that if I don't like the way things are being done, to sell and get out? Apparently a lot of owners are taking that advice. Have you checked the classifieds lately? In one area of the country, the midget owner population is being gutted big time right now. Yeah, today, guys, right before your very eyes. It was just two years ago that an offical from that region came on here and blasted me to the moon because I said it was about to happen.
Actually, Ovalmeister, what you are proposing could happen right now. There are engines and technology available that would fit in your niche you are proposing. Could it, would it happen? Have you ever seen Santa Claus in July? Well, it could if all the powers to be would put their allegiance to all the political big buck influences on the back burner and use some common sense. Here is another thought. Wouldn't it make more sense to just junk all the high powered engines and replace them with an engine that is available new, right now, for around $10,000? I have a fresh engine sitting in my garage right now with a bill of sale for a rebuild at $7600. Yeah... $7600. Let's see. That's $1400 less than a new engine for around $10,000. Again, this makes way too much sense for most of the midget community to understand. I know of one midget org in the U. S. that would rather be tortured 24/7 than make any changes to their rule book. I heard it first hand last week right from the source. Like I said before on this thread, the day of judgement is coming at this critical time in midget racing history. We have the possible implosion of an historic region of midget racing, a new promoter in Indiana willing to bring a few fresh ideas to a midget series, another org implementing a rev limiter and weight rule supposedly by April 1, and some other groups that will be conducting business as usual. We will see!! |
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Why show photos from the 80's? Many teams ran combo cars until the Mid-90's.
In my experience with Mini-Sprint owners, I doubt many have a desire to own a midget. They may like the thought of it, but it is a different animal. Maybe I am wrong, but most run them because it is cost effective(Some of it), they can either run them close to home or they look somewhat like a sprintcar with the wings on. The cost is such that they can pick up used ones for a good price and they don't cost much to operate. Even if a midget was $20,000 turn key, I doubt many would jump. Besides, you can already pick up good quality used Midgets for under $20,000 and have many more spares than if you bought a new one. Many of those clubs probably have between 9-20 cars each. That is fine, but as it has been pointed out on here, few people want to pay to see less than 20 cars race. The Hut 100 used to draw cars from all over the country when they got 70-100. Same with Turkey Night. They were landmark events that were held after the season had wound down. Today with fuel costs, that is a hard sell and in many ways the Chili-Bowl has taken over as the destination event of the year. People want to "save" Midget Racing, but in reality Sprint Cars are what have hurt the Midgets and that isn't going to change. People like to say the race sprint cars. No matter the style; it has a certain ring to it. If people want Midget racing to thrive, maybe the better bet is to make it the unique sport it is. The fewer the races, the better the crowds if the level of competition is at a high level. If the sponsorship can be found to pay what it's worth then maybe the racers can be paid at a higher level. Many people feel that each race should have 50 cars, but that isn't realistic. |
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Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE: The above statement by Scott Baue should be the basis for reinventing midget racing. Sorry that many of your can't understand that or won't understand it. Once we get beyond this mindset, we might be able to make some progress. |
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Originally Posted by DonMoore10: There will always be someone willing to outspend you(not you personally, but the colloquial you) no matter what form of racing you elect to participate in. Be it tires, motors. or bodies, someone is spending the money..... RC cars? Someone can buy a better, more expensive car......600's? again, someone can outspend you....It's been a fact of life for openwheel for a long time, and while some may not like it, it's not likely to change at this point. You can always choose to step down to Kenyon midgets, or TQ's, but don't be disappointed when someone outspends you there to beat you... If you want an inexpensive hobby, take up whittling...at least you can burn your mistakes for heat!:3: |
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I agree completely with the four guys who have posted before me. The post by Ovalmeister was especially interesting.
Here's the biggest hole I can blow in your proposal. Unfortunately, there are very few in racing today who are willing to be the losers. The mentality is not the same as it was at the times you're noting. I just read in here that Don Moore thinks it's just fine and dandy that another midget group is scheduling against the Hut Hundred (a major midget race you say should have 70+ cars), but that NEVER would have happened in this past life. These racers have to come from somewhere. Whether you like them or not, you need younger drivers to make these fields of cars, but these are the same kids who ran a BUNCH of different types of cars, which were split into a BUNCH of different classes. Every one of them was a winner. I've been reading resumes for the last four years, and nobody out there is a loser. Everybody found a class, or a series, or a track that could make them a winner. They weren't willing to be anything less. But in order for things to be bright and sunny the way you want them, there would have to be people willing to scratch and claw just to be competitive with the elite racers. I also think a hierarchy of midget organizations is important to the success of all of them. No one is willing to do that, though. POWRi & UMARA both call themselves "National" midget groups. All groups snipes each other for dates, and obviously not even the biggest races of the year (and one in dire need of a good field and a great event) are immune to be being scheduled against. As a young person who spends a lot of time around race car drivers and would like to be a car owner one day, I can tell you that there are a lot of options of race cars to run these days. And even in each of those types of racing, there are plenty of options of races to run. Unfortunately, midgets are just not high on the list of cars that people want to drive, and cost is only one reason. No matter how many changes you make, midgets will never be the most popular of those options again, if you ask me... |
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Despite your wishful thing, there were plenty of owners that decided a long time ago that they were not going to run the Hut at Haubstadt and I am one of them. That is a special, one of a kind event that's not for every midget owner out there. Those owners can either sit home and not race or they can choose to race somewhere else for whatever reason. The scheduled midget race on May 8 is an event that is not looking to attract cars that would be drawn to the Hut. What in the world makes you think that every midget owner on the planet is going to show up there. You're living in a fantasy land if you think that. Please respect the owners decisions to race where they feel is best for their team whether it be midgets, sprint cars or whatever. I'm constantly reading on here regarding a distaste for races scheduled on the same night. I hate to ruin everybody's day but it's going to happen and it will happen in the future, so get used to it. There are only so many race dates in the midwest during the racing season. Promoters trying to match touring schedules with tracks is a nightmare. Sorry, but that's the way it is and it's not going to change.
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Well maybe it is time to get a post going on how to grow midget racing. Start with kids and work from there. Wont happen over night but it is a good place to start....oh wait USAC has started that.....and maybe it is going to help the future of midget racing.
Listen to and ask questions of the families that are running the USAC .25 quarter midgets now and you might be surprised what you hear. :8: Eric Rankine |
Re: dished Midget Hoods
Originally Posted by Kirk Spridgeon: David. ---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ---------- Originally Posted by Kirk Spridgeon: David. |
Re: dished Midget Hoods
Off of the 2010 USAC rule book,
The front part of the body, known as the nose assembly, shall not be wider than the parallel lines of the body and may not exceed the width of the frame. The nose assembly may not extend forward beyond the confines of the front bumper. The top surface of the nose may not be dished or concave more than one (1) inch. This dimension will be measured from a straight edge lying on the longitudinal axis of the car. This one (1) inch dimension includes any flairs or wicker bills. Vertical spill plates are not allowed. (See Illustration #7.) The positioning of the nose may not extend above or below the downtube more than two inches. (See Illustration #6.) Any air deflector that is used to direct air for cooling shall be completely inside the confines of the nose and the solid sides of the nose shall cover this deflector. This deflector will not be movable |
Re: dished Midget Hoods
Is this being enforced.........
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Re: dished Midget Hoods
Originally Posted by aussiemidgetfan: |
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